Are you making a cruise control for a car? I'm interested in the details, how far along are you with it? Do you have a thread going on this forum on it?
As for resolution, my goal is to be able to quickly sense load and adjust for it. The geartooth sensor sounded good to me as long as the propeller can keep up. My flywheel should have 164 teeth on it. 164 teeth x 3,000 RPM Max would be 492,000 pulses per minute / 60 sec in a min and I should have 8,200 pulses per second.
Can a propeller reliably read 8,200 pulses per second?
I really like the idea of mounting magnets at the pump coupling. This would help if/when I decide to change the engine to a diesel.
I feel I need the extra resolution because this engine does see varied load at idle. This machine is self propelled so when I maneuver it usually I do it at idle speed as this is no Corvette. I could I suppose make a star wheel with a bunch of teeth and press it onto my lovejoy coupling then I can decide on a more reasonable number of teeth. I have a CNC milling machine so making a custom gear is no big deal for me.
As for toyota servo, it would certainly be a quality part, but sounds expensive and I don't think I need feedback. Iny idea why I would need or how I would use the feedback?
I also like the idea of measuring the time between the teeth rather than counting the number of teeth over time.
I'm sure there are some nice industrial controls just for this, but this is more fun and I learn something in the process.
Thanks you all! there are a lot of great ideas here
I would never buy a new Toyota part for this type of project. After the "sudden acceleration" media Smile I checked out both cars. I knew the '08 Yaris was a drive by wire throttle body. It looks like my wife's '06 Corolla is also drive by wire. This makes all auto pick-apart yards a good source of donor parts. Purchased cheaply enough, I don't mind using a band saw to get what I'm looking for. Some of the PID objects available from the OBEX have good comments in them about customizing your object for the application. As others have suggested I've used, with success, jm_freqin.spin as a base object for acceptable tachometers and speedometers.
That's a cool splitter! Man, I remember growing up doing that. Somebody somewhere is gonna be really happy running that thing!
I just wanted to chime in with a thought or two:
1. Have you looked for "electronics surplus" stores near where you live? If not, do it. If you've got one close by, they are generally excellent for bits and pieces. I've got one on the way to work, and it's golden. Worth a shot. Saves $$$ too, just because you can generally go in to those places with a coupla bucks and walk out with some assorted components.
2. Get the headers done, and buy a breadboard to add on. Many boards seen around here have some connector for that purpose. It's a great way to prototype.
3. Keep in mind how the prop is parallel. It's going to be possible to build up your program in pieces. Nail each one, then as they come together, control them with a supervisor type program, taking whatever input you need, and displaying whatever result, if you go that route. This is the most excellent power of the prop, IMHO. Once a specific piece of the puzzle is done, you more or less don't have to touch it going forward.
Probably most of that has been said though. I'll finish reading the thread. Just really liked your project design so far.
I recommend you build yourself a test stand with an old electric motor that has a speed control.
Most crankshaft reluctors (gears) for car engines have a missing tooth to signal a new revolution. Some automotive electronic ignition distributors (same basic process) will use one tooth per cylinder on the gear reluctor or a shaded rotor (img #3). The single tooth pic#2 is from a 4 cylinder Kawasaki, Pic#5 is homemade. If you use a reluctor with only one tooth, it will greatly simplify your programming.
If you limit your rpm by controlling the throttle, be sure to consider vibration and weather's effect on the actuators lifespan.
Thanks, believe it or not this device is for personal use only. It's all for me and my friends of course. I don't sell wood or do any of this for money. I personally burn about 5 cords of wood a year trying to keep my oil bills down. Of course I've spent a few dollars on equipment, but heating the house with wood is more about "Sticking it to the man" than the actual money.
I've been interested in Electronics for a while (not that I'm any good at it) and I don't think there are any electronics surplus stores anywhere around here. The one thing that I have is Park Distributors in Bridgeport CT. They are the only local supplier around that I know of. They are mostly a distribution place, but they do have a small display area and they welcome walk in's. Park is all new stuff, no surplus.
I've got the headers soldered to the board and I'm writing blinking LED programs. I've got some more reading/learning to do before I into PID logic.
I'm definitely going to do a test bed with a Drill or something. So I can play in the comfort of my office.
Why would one tooth be easier to program? If your sayng this because of the missing tooth issue, that won't be an issue as I'll cut my own gear on my CNC. My train of thought (which may be wrong) is more teeth = more resolution = quicker to sense speed change = quicker to react = run smoother. Many folks have argued that I don't need the extra resolution, but isn't more better? As I'm cutting the gear on a CNC there is no extra effort for 1 tooth or 20 teeth. I sure don't want to over complicate the programming.
As for vibration and weather. This engine runs surprisingly smooth, that may change with the diesel of course. The engine has a "Dog House" around it so it is protected from the weather and it usually lives in a garage anyway. I plan to start with a hobby servo and then upgrade to something a little better once I prove the concept.
I also plan to have a separate speed overrun protection. For the gas engine it will be in the form of a MSD 6AL ignition box (have one in the junk pile) with a 3,000 rpm rev limiter chip in it. So no matter what goes wrong with the propeller, it won't blow the engine. I have no idea how to handle this on the diesel, but that's a challenge for another day.
Yeah, cool. Where I used to live, we could burn wood. It's a great source of heat. Love the atmosphere, and honestly, I enjoy working with the wood to get it prepped too. 5 cords is a lot though. We would do one or two, and I would get it half rounds, and half odds and ends from the lumber yard cheap. That stuff was hard to split. The rounds were cake.
I hear you about sticking it to the man. But, it's also nice to just be self-sufficient to a degree. Gives people options. Cool project.
Thanks, believe it or not this device is for personal use only. It's all for me and my friends of course. I don't sell wood or do any of this for money. I personally burn about 5 cords of wood a year trying to keep my oil bills down. Of course I've spent a few dollars on equipment, but heating the house with wood is more about "Sticking it to the man" than the actual money.
I've been interested in Electronics for a while (not that I'm any good at it) and I don't think there are any electronics surplus stores anywhere around here. The one thing that I have is Park Distributors in Bridgeport CT. They are the only local supplier around that I know of. They are mostly a distribution place, but they do have a small display area and they welcome walk in's. Park is all new stuff, no surplus.
I've got the headers soldered to the board and I'm writing blinking LED programs. I've got some more reading/learning to do before I into PID logic.
You can test it for yourself by using the Melexis 90217 Hall-Effect Sensor Parallax sells. Just super glue 12 or so neo magnets to the harmonic balancer (use kicker), and make a temporary bracket to read the neo magnets. Or glue a neo magnet to the 90217 Hall-Effect Sensor and read the starter ring gear.
All you need to do is look for a +/- trend over a period of time. One revolution at 2000 RPM occurs in .030 seconds, that’s faster than you need to react. With 12 magnets your resolution will be 2 ½ thousands of a second. Besides the obvious increase in data with increased resolution, the increased sensitivity will just tell you that cylinder #x runs better than #z as the engine acceleration speeds up or slows down as it’s rotating through the 4 cycle process. It is simply more data than what you require.
If you want to build a permanent bracket, I recommend that you machine a block of aluminum to mount close to your harmonic balancer. Machine a space out of the back side of the aluminum block as big or small as you want. Mount the Melexis hall sensor inside the block from the back side and cover it with JB weld. Design it to have a wall thickness of .040” to .125” between the hall sensor and the magnet. (You can determine the proper thickness for a particular magnet with some preliminary testing). Find some stainless steel sheath to protect your sensor wires. Use thick CA (super glue) and some Kicker (from a hobby shop) to secure your sensor, wires, and s/s sheath before you cover it up with JB weld, Devcon, etc.
The “Motor Minder” object is a simple program, and a good starting point.
The Propeller can easily handle rpm limiting by grounding the coil every-other revolution at a specified point. Run-away (dieseling) protection for an old carbureted gas engine is a good idea. The Propeller can actuate a solenoid to automatically shut the choke for such an emergency. A single Propeller is capable of doing so much, nearly anything you can think of, like make your own 6AL (Multi-Spark isn't difficult, with a little research and a Prop, you could build a better one)
Are you making a cruise control for a car? I'm interested in the details, how far along are you with it? Do you have a thread going on this forum on it?
Hi Roger,
I wasn't going to announce this until it was done but my son is now 13 months old and I spend most of my free time with him these days . I'm also at the point in the project where I will need forum guidance.
I am attempting to use the propeller to rev-match an engine's output to a transmission's input for smooth downshifts using throttle by wire. Essentially, an electronic "heel-toe" move. I did not plan on posting some of the code for the obvious risks involved in giving an electronic system rights to control a vehicles throttle. Luckily, there are several ways to disengage or stop the two systems.
rogerfries
Take a look at this project it uses a stepper motor that is turned into a linear servo to control his diesel generator. It uses a basic stamp for the control. http://www.kinzers.com/don/GenSet/
Also the GM wheel and sensor are easy to order and should be able to get of a long time in case of a failure, I don't know about the Cherry sensor. As far as specs it would be easier to machine a coupling to mount the wheel to the shaft then an entire wheel. The GM wheel is about 6 inches in diameter.
There are lots of good ideas in the Genset link you sent. Too bad it's a Stamp app and not a Propeller app. I'm sure the logic can be ported, but I have so much to learn in spin still. I already bought the Cherry sensor, and have it wired up and working on a test bench (now just signaling the Propeller to blink a LED for each pulse). Not much but it's a start.
One side question It seems to me that the Propeller is a superior product to the Stamp and the Stamp is not less money. Why would people choose the Stamp over the Propeller? Is the Stamp better for some applications? The only possible advantage I can see with the stamp is perhaps the language is easier to learn. Am I missing something?
For personal use? Once upon a time I lived in Eugene, Oregon. My business partner and I owned a two-ton flat bed. Everyone wanted to borrow it for hauling cut wood out of BLM forest during the winter months. We simply asked that they leave 1/4 of the load in the truck for our heating needs as a rental fee. The only think we didn't have was a splitter. That we did by hand.
I guess wherever you are is a lot colder than Eugene, Oregon.
At only 4,000 instructions per second, The BS2 might not have the horsepower of the Propeller, but the BS2 & Pbasic has more torque than the numbers suggest. The Pbasic has an easy learning curve and, is well documented in many books. You would spend a lot less personal time learning the BS2, and achieve the same goal.
I have a engine management system for a twin 300cc UAV drone, built by a big defense contractor. They used a BS2sx to control it because it reduced their development time.
Sorry for the soapbox, this is issue that drives me crazy. Good luck with your project.
Comments
Are you making a cruise control for a car? I'm interested in the details, how far along are you with it? Do you have a thread going on this forum on it?
I would never buy a new Toyota part for this type of project. After the "sudden acceleration" media Smile I checked out both cars. I knew the '08 Yaris was a drive by wire throttle body. It looks like my wife's '06 Corolla is also drive by wire. This makes all auto pick-apart yards a good source of donor parts. Purchased cheaply enough, I don't mind using a band saw to get what I'm looking for. Some of the PID objects available from the OBEX have good comments in them about customizing your object for the application. As others have suggested I've used, with success, jm_freqin.spin as a base object for acceptable tachometers and speedometers.
I just wanted to chime in with a thought or two:
1. Have you looked for "electronics surplus" stores near where you live? If not, do it. If you've got one close by, they are generally excellent for bits and pieces. I've got one on the way to work, and it's golden. Worth a shot. Saves $$$ too, just because you can generally go in to those places with a coupla bucks and walk out with some assorted components.
2. Get the headers done, and buy a breadboard to add on. Many boards seen around here have some connector for that purpose. It's a great way to prototype.
3. Keep in mind how the prop is parallel. It's going to be possible to build up your program in pieces. Nail each one, then as they come together, control them with a supervisor type program, taking whatever input you need, and displaying whatever result, if you go that route. This is the most excellent power of the prop, IMHO. Once a specific piece of the puzzle is done, you more or less don't have to touch it going forward.
Probably most of that has been said though. I'll finish reading the thread. Just really liked your project design so far.
Most crankshaft reluctors (gears) for car engines have a missing tooth to signal a new revolution. Some automotive electronic ignition distributors (same basic process) will use one tooth per cylinder on the gear reluctor or a shaded rotor (img #3). The single tooth pic#2 is from a 4 cylinder Kawasaki, Pic#5 is homemade. If you use a reluctor with only one tooth, it will greatly simplify your programming.
If you limit your rpm by controlling the throttle, be sure to consider vibration and weather's effect on the actuators lifespan.
Thanks, believe it or not this device is for personal use only. It's all for me and my friends of course. I don't sell wood or do any of this for money. I personally burn about 5 cords of wood a year trying to keep my oil bills down. Of course I've spent a few dollars on equipment, but heating the house with wood is more about "Sticking it to the man" than the actual money.
I've been interested in Electronics for a while (not that I'm any good at it) and I don't think there are any electronics surplus stores anywhere around here. The one thing that I have is Park Distributors in Bridgeport CT. They are the only local supplier around that I know of. They are mostly a distribution place, but they do have a small display area and they welcome walk in's. Park is all new stuff, no surplus.
I've got the headers soldered to the board and I'm writing blinking LED programs. I've got some more reading/learning to do before I into PID logic.
I'm definitely going to do a test bed with a Drill or something. So I can play in the comfort of my office.
Why would one tooth be easier to program? If your sayng this because of the missing tooth issue, that won't be an issue as I'll cut my own gear on my CNC. My train of thought (which may be wrong) is more teeth = more resolution = quicker to sense speed change = quicker to react = run smoother. Many folks have argued that I don't need the extra resolution, but isn't more better? As I'm cutting the gear on a CNC there is no extra effort for 1 tooth or 20 teeth. I sure don't want to over complicate the programming.
As for vibration and weather. This engine runs surprisingly smooth, that may change with the diesel of course. The engine has a "Dog House" around it so it is protected from the weather and it usually lives in a garage anyway. I plan to start with a hobby servo and then upgrade to something a little better once I prove the concept.
I also plan to have a separate speed overrun protection. For the gas engine it will be in the form of a MSD 6AL ignition box (have one in the junk pile) with a 3,000 rpm rev limiter chip in it. So no matter what goes wrong with the propeller, it won't blow the engine. I have no idea how to handle this on the diesel, but that's a challenge for another day.
Thanks!
I hear you about sticking it to the man. But, it's also nice to just be self-sufficient to a degree. Gives people options. Cool project.
All you need to do is look for a +/- trend over a period of time. One revolution at 2000 RPM occurs in .030 seconds, that’s faster than you need to react. With 12 magnets your resolution will be 2 ½ thousands of a second. Besides the obvious increase in data with increased resolution, the increased sensitivity will just tell you that cylinder #x runs better than #z as the engine acceleration speeds up or slows down as it’s rotating through the 4 cycle process. It is simply more data than what you require.
If you want to build a permanent bracket, I recommend that you machine a block of aluminum to mount close to your harmonic balancer. Machine a space out of the back side of the aluminum block as big or small as you want. Mount the Melexis hall sensor inside the block from the back side and cover it with JB weld. Design it to have a wall thickness of .040” to .125” between the hall sensor and the magnet. (You can determine the proper thickness for a particular magnet with some preliminary testing). Find some stainless steel sheath to protect your sensor wires. Use thick CA (super glue) and some Kicker (from a hobby shop) to secure your sensor, wires, and s/s sheath before you cover it up with JB weld, Devcon, etc.
The “Motor Minder” object is a simple program, and a good starting point.
The Propeller can easily handle rpm limiting by grounding the coil every-other revolution at a specified point. Run-away (dieseling) protection for an old carbureted gas engine is a good idea. The Propeller can actuate a solenoid to automatically shut the choke for such an emergency. A single Propeller is capable of doing so much, nearly anything you can think of, like make your own 6AL (Multi-Spark isn't difficult, with a little research and a Prop, you could build a better one)
Hi Roger,
I wasn't going to announce this until it was done but my son is now 13 months old and I spend most of my free time with him these days
I am attempting to use the propeller to rev-match an engine's output to a transmission's input for smooth downshifts using throttle by wire. Essentially, an electronic "heel-toe" move. I did not plan on posting some of the code for the obvious risks involved in giving an electronic system rights to control a vehicles throttle. Luckily, there are several ways to disengage or stop the two systems.
I will start another thread on this topic.
Thanks,
AJ
Take a look at this project it uses a stepper motor that is turned into a linear servo to control his diesel generator. It uses a basic stamp for the control.
http://www.kinzers.com/don/GenSet/
Also the GM wheel and sensor are easy to order and should be able to get of a long time in case of a failure, I don't know about the Cherry sensor. As far as specs it would be easier to machine a coupling to mount the wheel to the shaft then an entire wheel. The GM wheel is about 6 inches in diameter.
There are lots of good ideas in the Genset link you sent. Too bad it's a Stamp app and not a Propeller app. I'm sure the logic can be ported, but I have so much to learn in spin still. I already bought the Cherry sensor, and have it wired up and working on a test bench (now just signaling the Propeller to blink a LED for each pulse). Not much but it's a start.
One side question It seems to me that the Propeller is a superior product to the Stamp and the Stamp is not less money. Why would people choose the Stamp over the Propeller? Is the Stamp better for some applications? The only possible advantage I can see with the stamp is perhaps the language is easier to learn. Am I missing something?
Thanks
I guess wherever you are is a lot colder than Eugene, Oregon.
I have a engine management system for a twin 300cc UAV drone, built by a big defense contractor. They used a BS2sx to control it because it reduced their development time.
Sorry for the soapbox, this is issue that drives me crazy. Good luck with your project.
Bill M.