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VGA given five years to live — Parallax Forums

VGA given five years to live

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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-12-09 12:44
    This could well impact plans for the Prop II, since it's too slow for HDMI. I did a forum search on propeller displayport and didn't get any hits, so I don't know if Chip plans to support that protocol somehow. It would be shame to have a chip supporting VGA but have nothing on the market to connect it to in five years.

    -Phil
  • John AbshierJohn Abshier Posts: 1,116
    edited 2010-12-09 12:51
    The article states that the VGA port will be eliminated from computers by 2015. What is important is how long VGA will be inputs on monitors and TVs.

    John Abshier
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2010-12-09 13:02
    Sounds like an opportunity to make a VGA to HDMI converter.

    Oops, already been done.

    http://sewelldirect.com/Component-VGA-to-HDMI-Scaler-720p.asp

    Rich H
  • edited 2010-12-09 13:03
    This could well impact plans for the Prop II, since it's too slow for HDMI. I did a forum search on propeller displayport and didn't get any hits, so I don't know if Chip plans to support that protocol somehow. It would be shame to have a chip supporting VGA but have nothing on the market to connect it to in five years.

    -Phil

    I think you will still see VGA monitors produced for people who don't want to upgrade as there are a lot of programs written for the old monitors but the newer computers will use something new.
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-12-09 13:09
    This could well impact plans for the Prop II, since it's too slow for HDMI. I did a forum search on propeller displayport and didn't get any hits, so I don't know if Chip plans to support that protocol somehow. It would be shame to have a chip supporting VGA but have nothing on the market to connect it to in five years.

    -Phil

    How do we know the Prop II is too slow for HDMI?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-12-09 13:11
    Look at the spec!

    The nVidia graphics card on my desktop PC includes an HDMI output, I normally use it with a standard LCD monitor. I had a couple of problems but I eventually got it working with my HDMI-capable TV.

    My Dell Streak tablet has HDMI capability, which is a bit silly.
  • schillschill Posts: 741
    edited 2010-12-09 13:39
    Leon wrote: »
    My Dell Streak tablet has HDMI capability, which is a bit silly.

    The nice thing about using HDMI on those small devices is that they can use a standard jack (or the standard micro version) for your video connection since they are a lot thinner than vga and rca jacks. You don't need a special adapter (usually at an additional charge) just to connect video.

    I expect that TVs/monitors will continue to have VGA for a while but then they will disappear all at once. It will be worth it to the manufacturers to get rid of it even if they are only saving a few cents per monitor because they don't need the jack. Similar to LCD monitors - they were around for a while and then CRTs basically disappeared all at once (and became a lot more expensive).
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,401
    edited 2010-12-09 13:56
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    How do we know the Prop II is too slow for HDMI?

    Prop2 is designed for a 180 nm process; a quick check with Chip indicates that a 45 nm or 90 nm process would be required for HDMI.

    - Ken
  • Nick McClickNick McClick Posts: 1,003
    edited 2010-12-09 13:58
    "The rumors of my demise..." VGA will be around for a while, even if they eliminate it from new computers in 5 years.

    A better question, will the Prop 2 still need PS/2 peripherals? Those actually are starting to disappear.

    As I understand, DVI-D is 90% compatible with HDMI (just doesn't include audio). Looking at wikipedia, it says;
    The data format used by DVI is based on the PanelLink serial format devised by the semiconductor manufacturer Silicon Image Inc. This uses transition minimized differential signaling (TMDS). A single DVI link consists of four twisted pairs of wires (red, green, blue, and clock) to transmit 24 bits per pixel. The timing of the signal almost exactly matches that of an analog video signal. The picture is transmitted line by line with blanking intervals between each line and each frame, and without packetisation.

    Is it too slow for HDMI? At first glance, the signaling sounds pretty similar to VGA. I'm also not sure how different DisplayPort is from HDMI.

    Also, what about component?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-12-09 14:01
    Roy Etham wrote:
    How do we know the Prop II is too slow for HDMI?
    Chip said so, as reported by Rayman here:

    -Phil

    Edit: Ken beat me to it.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2010-12-09 16:14
    There will be VGA monitors around for a very long time...

    I doubt this will be a real concern..

    I still have several TV's which are have an AV input, the same input used by
    microcomputers almost twenty years ago. Heck, I still have the original monitors too!

    OBC
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-12-09 17:36
    I was not aware the HDMI had a fixed rate it operated at. I thought it used different rates depending on the resolution, such that we might be able to support 720p or 480p via and HDMI connection, just not 1080p... I guess that is wrong?

    All the numbers for HDMI signalling I could find talk about maximum rates, and examples for 1080p or other higher resolutions.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2010-12-10 08:18
    Well, I just had a very interesting experience. One of the vendor application engineers I work with came to town to help prove a concept on injection mold finite element analysis software. Cool stuff, in that it can model the dynamics of the plastic inside the mold before the mold is made.

    We went on site to meet the people and do the usual show and tell. Inside his laptop bag was a projector, and a adapter cable, carried everywhere because his machine had HDMI only output! Biggest pain in the Smile ever, and that guy is currently getting a new machine with a VGA port on it, because being limited to HDMI has more or less crippled his machine for general use.

    I think the bigger story here goes back to the "analog hole" with big content producers really pushing hard for encrypted connections everywhere to discourage piracy. The truth is, that stuff doesn't do much for it, as it's always possible to get some inexpensive thing from Asia that "leaves the stream open", leaving most of us to deal with upgrades and functionality limits.

    Anything that doesn't honor the encrypted path will force a degrade in quality, or failure to operate, with this project building over many years. Windows Vista incorporated this into their graphics layer, which is the source of a lot of pain, continued with Windows 7. On the other end of things, display manufacturers are being pressured to exclude analog devices.

    Really, a lot of this is about control too. Having some control over the display means and methods is a money maker for all parties involved. I've thought that for a while.

    That said, Prop II will do VGA, and it will do component video (which I prefer for it's color space), and sheer inertia will mean it's a non issue. There are consumer grade devices, that will be moving this way, for some of the reasons I mentioned, and then there is industrial grade kinds of things.

    NTSC Composite is supposed to be dead, yet it's rather easy to find displays that allow that basic input, and that input has some favorable characteristics when cost is a consideration. The same is going to be true for VGA, which at this point, is so mature and ubiquitous that significant share will be lost for those displays that won't accept it.

    The whole thing will be organic. At some point, we may lose those things, but not until the replacements have cycled through a LOT of existing gear. By then, this technology will have matured enough to operate in the digital realm as it does in the analog one today.

    That's years, lots of years in the future.

    By one way of example, manufacturers are wanting to shave the cost of the VGA port out of a very thin margin machine, while they keep that cost figure in the sales price. This is attractive for a little while, but will result in things like people carrying around extra devices.

    In the end, saving that small amount of money will not be worth it for a fairly large number of people, who actually do use their computers in enough ways to warrant the port. Soon after this whole thing starts to take hold, there will be some manufacturers who realize they can capture the same gain by flipping the equation around! Leave the port on there, and double dip (charge twice) for it, promoting it as a feature!!

    Let the games begin! We will be fine throughout, so long as we are careful about selecting products. Those that hose that up, won't do it twice.

    Long live analog input means and methods.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-12-10 08:42
    potatohead,

    I think you underestimate the influence that the entertainment/consumer market segment has on the "industrial" computer biz. Have you tried to find an LCD monitor lately that sports a 4:3 aspect ratio or has more than 1080 vertical pixels? They're becoming quite rare. What we're left with are wide-screen monitors suitable for watching movies, but much less suited for CAD work or for displaying PDF pages that are readable when fit to the screen. I can't help but to believe that VGA monitors will disappear quickly as well, once HDMI becomes ubiquitous. NTSC will be around for a long while, though, due mainly to its simple cabling requirements and its consequent pervasiveness in the CATV industry. VGA, OTOH, does not enjoy such advantages.

    -Phil
  • schillschill Posts: 741
    edited 2010-12-10 09:30
    Have you tried to find an LCD monitor lately that sports a 4:3 aspect ratio or has more than 1080 vertical pixels? They're becoming quite rare. What we're left with are wide-screen monitors suitable for watching movies, but much less suited for CAD work or for displaying PDF pages that are readable when fit to the screen.

    This is something I've definitely noticed and I'm not happy about it. I don't really require the 4:3 (although I like it), but 1080 vertical pixels is just not the same as 1200. I run dual 1600x1200 (4:3) monitors and I'm very happy with them. I figured when they died, I'd replace them with 1920x1200 monitors. But now, if you look at www.newegg.com, they have exactly three 1920x1200 monitors below $400. They only list 6 total (and one of those is refurb'd). They will probably go the way of CRTs - you can still buy them but they get to be very expensive. Maybe I need to just buy the monitors now and store them until I need them.

    The industry and consumers are too obsessed with video and screen size. Everything is advertised as (e.g.) 25" but with no mention of resolution (term used loosely here).

    I do have a laptop that is 1920x1200 (along with one that's 1366x768 (at least it's really portable) and some 1024x600 netbooks). Those aren't that easy to find, either.
  • Nick McClickNick McClick Posts: 1,003
    edited 2010-12-10 10:32
    @phil - I generally agree, but every business conference room has a projector, and every projector has a VGA connector. Computer makers sell a lot of laptops to businesses!

    Of course, a transition will still happen, but I think it will take much longer than 16:10 LCD screens, because widescreen laptops won't require you to replace every projector in your business & bring an adapter to every client meeting.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2010-12-10 13:43
    The display aspect and pixel size is independent of connection type. There are different dynamics in play.

    (and no, I don't like the reduced vertical resolution either)
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-12-10 13:57
    potatohead wrote: »
    The display aspect and pixel size is independent of connection type.
    Of course. I never implied there was any connection between them. My point is that the computer industry is beholden to the consumer/entertainment market (which prefers wide-screen monitors), because that's where the volume is. As a consequence 4:3 monitors have succumbed to those market forces very quickly. If VGA monitors fall out of favor with the consumer/entertainment manufacturers they, likewise, will disappear altogether. And, judging by the sudden and nearly exclusive availability of widescreen monitors, this could happen rather quickly.

    -Phil
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2010-12-10 21:20
    It could. I don't think I'll worry about it, largely because I don't control it, and so far, we've seen adapters for most everything. It is possible to get vertical height in displays, but it's costly. Perhaps that's just a engineering niche, and that's how it will be.

    What I see differently is all the VGA capable devices, and a general reluctance to phase them out in business. Some people are grumbling about DVD fading too, and again, are people really up for mass replacements?

    I think the wide screen deal happened at a time of convergence. The move away from CRTs, combined with higher definition entertainment content drove that big. Understandable. However, the move from VGA to HDMI isn't anywhere near as compelling. The same is true for general component video. Run those, compare to HDMI, and it's not that significant. So the gear will get used, and used for it's life, and then some.

    We shall see!!
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-12-10 21:36
    On big factor driving the move to HDMI is connector size vis-a-vis the diminutive dimensions of the current laptop crop. For comparison, look what USB did to native parallel and serial ports. But you're right: there will probably be a thriving adapter market, as there is now for USB-to-serial/parallel adapters.

    -Phil
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2010-12-11 00:13
    HDMI DVI D and Displayport and FPC and other TDMS displays are a digital . now that we used mostly LCDs that are digital . there is no need for VGA .

    its a signal waist ! digi to analioug to digital . now I aggree with potatohead its the " a Hole " issue !!!
    Microsoft and other DRM pro companys are bending over for the MPAA and RIAA . its Sick ..

    potato is right . every "rights management" scheam ever made was broke a few days later/

    its a giant posturing contest ..

    I refuse to use HDMI . its draconion DRM makes me sick and the physical plug desgine badly implememted ..

    i LIKE SCREWS !! friction fit is not a good idea . and the jacks are often serfice mounted with junky lead free solder that is so weak that one bad tug on a connnected cable and the jack rips off teh board ..
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