Just a historical observation. Big corporations have repeatedly tried to enter the hobby electronics/robotics market and been repeatedly rebuffed. They don't seem to have the personnel that really can provide the high level of quality support that the customers hope for and patronize.
And so M$ and Tandy have made their splashes, been disappointed that they can't make a quick, high margin buck, and then disappeared. Tandy/Radio Shack has bounced in and out at least twice over the past few years.
In sum, you really have to be like Parallax and know your stuff in order to survive. And at times, it just isn't easy. There are a lot of things that have to be done right before you are appreciated.
I don't know. I think I can answer this with several answers.
1) Robotics is an expensive field. Anyone trying to add motors to a robot knows what I'm talking about. You have to have a job because its something that adults or parents can afford.
2) Microcontrollers have a lot of competitition for a small percentage of customers.
3) I don't know of forums or clubs that promote Microsoft in Robotics. In a sense, when you think of Microsoft, you think of Windows, operating systems, Internet Explorer and programs. They have almost typecast themselves.
4) When I hear about "Robotics Studio" then it sounds like there is a program to learn to run microcontrollers which adds a layer for people to learn when you need to know the basics to get started.
5) Understanding the heirarchy of a company is not always easy. I stopped getting involved with Microsoft products because of the way I do business. When your support is web based and when a company doesn't have a lot of employees to answer the phone, you get these kind of automated replies that shows a company doesn't always understand your problem. I had a problem with google and bugs with their services. Instead of listening to the problem, their secretary keep pointing me back to their online instructions that doesn't understand that they've created a bug. You can write to google but you can't find a list of contacts beyond their office address or secretary because I feel they don't really want to be contacted because they're busy.
6) Robotics isn't their main thing so they default to their screensaver 'so to speak' which is Operating Systems, Internet Exporer and Bing.
Is it dead? Heck no!!! (I work for Microsoft and have done a lot with Robotics Studio.)
In fact, we've been expanding the use of MSRS into fields people haven't though of. I think you'd be amazed at some of the places it's been implemented. In R3 (the latest version) we also lowered the price for all versions to free which made it even more compelling!
Parallax BoeBot is one of the out of the box supported platforms for MSRS as well. I personally use my iRobot Create and a BoeBot for most of my toying around with it. I've actually implemented it in my car as well to do some fun things. I worked on an episode of "Pimp My Ride" where we implemented it in the truck to help control all the automation features of the audio/video system as well as some of the extra features like the digital dash board.
I looked for the Boe-Bot documation but its not supported any more in this MSRS revision.
[STRIKEOUT]No, that's not true, we actually include the Manifests for the BoeBot with the installation. Look in the config folder for them.[/STRIKEOUT]
Hmmm... I guess I was wrong... we don't include the manifest files in the lastest version... I'm not sure why. Anyway, the old manifests for the BoeBot (from 1.0 and 1.5) will work just fine. Apparently, since I already had them installed in my computer, the new version just allowed me to use them. (I haven't noticed any problems, but if you do, the forum actually has a few easy steps to get them to work again.)
However, just because it's not "included" doesn't mean it doesn't work. In fact, ANY robot will work with MSRS, since it's really just providing the logic services for the platform.
I would call myself not beeing guided a lot by prejudice. Somehow with M$-products this is different. "Studio": to me this sounds like 10 time more options than in M$-word.
Buggy, behaving strange, taking 30 hours to get a somehow overview of how it works.
compared to this "prejudice-picture" the propeller-tool is supereasy. 12-blocks is supereasy.
Of course loading the boebot-demofile might be easy. (even I doubt that I just install robotic studio finding the option to choose boebot-platform within one minute)
But how about I want the boebot to do 1.) ...., 2.)..... 3.).... My expectation about M$-products for this task is: Will be dammned annoying and taking several hours.
Sorry to write all this. Maybe it's all different with the MSRS. But I have been disappointed so much by M$-products. That I can't believe it any more. It disapointed me so much that it keeps me away from
even testing it for 5 minutes.
Do you know the tool named "Everything" ? Even if you have 5 Million files spread over 5 harddisks and you are using a old celeron notebook. It will filter and find filenames faster than you can type the characters.
And it keeps his database updated in REALTIME!!
it is a REAL BIG SHAME that microsoft isn't able to implement such a great and fast searchtool by themself !!!! What do they do? Keep indexing files at startup eating up 98% percent of CPU-power!
Are they even testing their software on medium actual medium clocked PC's? To me it seems they do only testing it on HIGH-perfomance servers with nothing else installed but windows and MS-office.
I'm more confused because the forum is in sequential order and I would have to go through 60 pages or 982 messages because they aren't grouped by topic.
I don't know what boards the software works with or where to get them.
I found this on the Microsoft forum under how to get started:
"You're DONE :)The guy's answer may sound silly or flippant, but I've come to the same conclusion.
"The programming model takes some practice but I like it. Be prepared for a couple weeks of mental fog."
It sounds like you have to pretty much have to have too much time on your hands. I only heard about one microcontroller board I might like to think about but the above list makes it sound unappealing and I'm still further clueless as to where to get the board.
I think the biggest confusion around Robotics Studio is about the platforms that are supported. MSRS isn't limited to a particular set of platforms. Instead it's based on a "different" kind of programming model that is service oriented.
It definetly takes a little time to get used to the concepts, but once that happens, you'll quickly realize that it's not about the robot at all, but what you want the robot to do.
For example... most robots (the classic kind) are either stationary or movable. If it's movable, you generally want it to move in a particular direction... like Forward, Backwards, Turn Left or Turn Right. In MSRS, you define those actions (actually, that's already done for you) and give those commands to a service that "converts" them into the appropriate movement commands for the particular robot you are using.
That way, when you upgrade from a wheeled robot to a tracked robot... the base core logic of the robot doesn't change.... you're still telling it to move in a particular direction... it's just that the service that handles it does it in a slightly different way depending on the robot chassis. We've defined a bunch of "chassis" styles that can be adpated (or will run unmodified) for the various types of robots out there.
The Parallax BoeBot and the iRobot Create are two very different robots, however, you can program them the same exact way... abstracting out the differences via the services. You can then tie in other things... like cameras, joysticks, sensors, etc. the same generic way.
Also, the language is a bit odd, too. Most developers will actually start out with VPL (Visual Programming Language.) VPL is very similar to Hanno's 12 Blocks, in that you drag and drop services together and connect them with data/commands. It allows you to reuse functionallity quickly and easly between different robots.
As an example, I have several "basic services" components that I use... vision processing for example. One is a "line follower" service that has the logic built in. If I need to build a robot with line following... I simply drag that component into my VPL, set a couple properties on it and it's done. I have a generic "line tracker" object that allows me to use other services like a camera or a simple photodiode/led system to do my line tracking. Either sensor plugs into the generic line tracker service interface so that any robot can use the same logic.
By the way, you also don't actually need a real robot... you can construct the entire thing virtually (3d models) and run it in our simulation environment as well. You can build the entire robot and test every feature before you cut a single real wire assembling it. It's pretty cool.
My frustration with MSRS is that it seems the only way (unless I am missing something) to get it to communicate with the BoeBot is to use a EBT500 module. I could finf no info on just usinh a serial port. Whem I asked a question on the forum I got an answer from India 4 months later that did not evem make sense. If I can gwt it to work I will probably go back and try again. Any suggestions from the MS guy?
Thats what they said about "Windows NT", back in the 90's: (Windows 95, 98 were the favotire because of the FAT32, and multimidia support). They said NTFS file system was odd, it was going to fade out, and such..........If you look back even 5yrs, a 2Core processor was a dream........Let us learn from the past..........Microsoft Robotics Studio lets you make you're robot and sell you're program for a profit.....thats it.... Bottom Line...... It lets you take youre hobby and make a difference, let it be for the disabled, elderly, childrens, automotive market and what not........thats the power of using the .Net languages...........Now Apple is a great CPU, dont get me wrong and I dont mean to insult, but if you decide to make you're robot for "iMarket" I'm sure its got to be the "BEST", thats Apples reputation.....no 2nd place, no technicallity , no but.........ok.................With Microsoft you dont have that problem, as long as you meet guide lines; UL, FCC, etc.....you can sell you're program with or with out the robot, and make a profit..........Microsoft Robotics Studio does have future potential.........programming in a DOS style like DOS based games,does not cut it anymore in this New Generation Of Technology.
The "default" communications with the BoeBot is via Bluetooth. However, again, that is just a service that allows that. You can simply replace that service with a different one... serial or WiFi for example. I've seen BoeBots that have been upgraded with various BlueTooth dongles and it doesn't seem to be a problem. It's just a matter of picking the correct service for your hardware.
I'm still using my EBT500... which hasn't quit working, so there is no reason to replace it for me.
There are currently production products that are using it. In fact, a least one that I know of is a very large implementation, but due to corporate policies, I'm not allowed to disclose it yet.
Has any one done an update HOWTO as to what it would take to control a boe bot with current hardware/software? Now that I have a boebot and an S2 on the way I'd like to find some up to date info.
-dan
Well... I don't have a lot of time on my hands, but I'll see what I can pull together. What I'll do is take the existing BoeBot manifests and update them for simple serial and the latest MSRS R3.
Might be after the holidays, however, as I have a ton of work to do until then.
Thanks "wjsteele" I was thinking of asking you for something like that......I was reading Microsoft Press Programming Microsoft Robotics Studio by Sara Morgan.....and In Chapter 7 it explains on how Creating a new hardware interface, and She made a BS.2 PBasic Diver for the ARobot wich uses a BS2 microcontroller, her PBasic Syntax seems a bit odd to me since Im not too familiar with it, but it makes the ARobot work with Microsoft Robotics Studio.......
After reading posts on the forum I understand that most don’t know where to begin looking for the Microsoft Robotics Studio and Boe-Bot; links on how to getting them to work together. Version 1.2 of MSRS has the C# code “part” for the Boe-Bot, but its not available anymore, as I understand. That doesn’t mean its all lost, these two links can get you started in making the required code. The 1st link has BS2 code for the ARobot from Arrick Robotics, the ARobot uses a Basic Stamp 2 for its microprocessor , and it also uses a coprocessors for it sensors and another one for the motors and one for steering……so the BS2 code has to be remade for the Boe-Bot witch only has one. The 2nd link is for the Boe-Bot from Parallax, it’s the Basic Stamp 2 code that communicates with MSRS Version 1.2. This code is made for a Bluetooth model not sold anymore this code has to be remade to communicate with the Boe-Bot……In All these codes can be usefull in making the new BS2 Driver for the Boe-Bot……..happy programming!! http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/companion/9780735624320 http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/src/prod/MSRS-Bluetooth-Boe-Bot-Code-v1.2.zip
*Note in the 1st link: the code for the ARobot is in Chapter 7 (the ARobot communicates with a Serial Cable): and Chapter 8 builds on top of it to make a internet security camera app. The Chapter 7 code for the ARobot comes 3 ways: the ARobot Folder contains the C# 2005 Visual Studio code, the DriveARobotByWire Folder contains the MSRS code v1.2, next to it is the BS.2 driver for the Basic Stam2.......I've tested them on MSRS (R2), and (R3), also in C# 2008 and C# 2010 express editions and they work of course they need to be updated. The BS.2 code works with the Basic Stamp 2 just needs modding for the Boe-Bot.
I really haven't giving it another look since its inital inception with the different versions. I'm glad to see that it has at the least consolidated the versioning down to one package. I'm downloading the prereqs and the studio itself now for another look. It still intrigues me that MS has entered into the robot arena.
Is it dead? Heck no!!! (I work for Microsoft and have done a lot with Robotics Studio.)
In fact, we've been expanding the use of MSRS into fields people haven't though of. I think you'd be amazed at some of the places it's been implemented. In R3 (the latest version) we also lowered the price for all versions to free which made it even more compelling!
Parallax BoeBot is one of the out of the box supported platforms for MSRS as well. I personally use my iRobot Create and a BoeBot for most of my toying around with it. I've actually implemented it in my car as well to do some fun things. I worked on an episode of "Pimp My Ride" where we implemented it in the truck to help control all the automation features of the audio/video system as well as some of the extra features like the digital dash board.
Version 1.2 of MSRS has the C# code “part” for the Boe-Bot, but its not available anymore, as I understand. That doesn’t mean its all lost, these two links can get you started in making the required code.... The BS.2 code works with the Basic Stamp 2 just needs modding for the Boe-Bot.
Actually, you don't have to do any of that. The code is actually all done. :-)
You can download the code for the ProMSRS book. You can go here: http://www.promrds.com/ and download their sample code, which includes the updated BoeBot manifests for the latest version of MSRS. It is still using the BlueTooth stack, however, it's quite simple to change the "microcode" for the BoeBot (which is included) to point to a serial port instead of the BlueTooth serial port. (From 1 to 16, if I remember correctly.)
Then you simply remove the "BlueTooth Service" from your code and instead use the "Simple Serial Port" service instead. You can replace the serial cable with any wireless version you want too... the code should work without modification after that.
jdolecki
Posts: 726
Comments
From what I've read he is now here:
http://www.hoaloharobotics.com/
And so M$ and Tandy have made their splashes, been disappointed that they can't make a quick, high margin buck, and then disappeared. Tandy/Radio Shack has bounced in and out at least twice over the past few years.
In sum, you really have to be like Parallax and know your stuff in order to survive. And at times, it just isn't easy. There are a lot of things that have to be done right before you are appreciated.
I don't know. I think I can answer this with several answers.
1) Robotics is an expensive field. Anyone trying to add motors to a robot knows what I'm talking about. You have to have a job because its something that adults or parents can afford.
2) Microcontrollers have a lot of competitition for a small percentage of customers.
3) I don't know of forums or clubs that promote Microsoft in Robotics. In a sense, when you think of Microsoft, you think of Windows, operating systems, Internet Explorer and programs. They have almost typecast themselves.
4) When I hear about "Robotics Studio" then it sounds like there is a program to learn to run microcontrollers which adds a layer for people to learn when you need to know the basics to get started.
5) Understanding the heirarchy of a company is not always easy. I stopped getting involved with Microsoft products because of the way I do business. When your support is web based and when a company doesn't have a lot of employees to answer the phone, you get these kind of automated replies that shows a company doesn't always understand your problem. I had a problem with google and bugs with their services. Instead of listening to the problem, their secretary keep pointing me back to their online instructions that doesn't understand that they've created a bug. You can write to google but you can't find a list of contacts beyond their office address or secretary because I feel they don't really want to be contacted because they're busy.
6) Robotics isn't their main thing so they default to their screensaver 'so to speak' which is Operating Systems, Internet Exporer and Bing.
In fact, we've been expanding the use of MSRS into fields people haven't though of. I think you'd be amazed at some of the places it's been implemented. In R3 (the latest version) we also lowered the price for all versions to free which made it even more compelling!
Parallax BoeBot is one of the out of the box supported platforms for MSRS as well. I personally use my iRobot Create and a BoeBot for most of my toying around with it. I've actually implemented it in my car as well to do some fun things. I worked on an episode of "Pimp My Ride" where we implemented it in the truck to help control all the automation features of the audio/video system as well as some of the extra features like the digital dash board.
You can learn more as well as can download the latest bits here: http://www.microsoft.com/robotics
Bill
Do get me wrong I like MS but it seems nobody is using it so finding help is hard.
thanks
Is there a social (message board) for this platform or just web based support?
[STRIKEOUT]No, that's not true, we actually include the Manifests for the BoeBot with the installation. Look in the config folder for them.[/STRIKEOUT]
Hmmm... I guess I was wrong... we don't include the manifest files in the lastest version... I'm not sure why. Anyway, the old manifests for the BoeBot (from 1.0 and 1.5) will work just fine. Apparently, since I already had them installed in my computer, the new version just allowed me to use them. (I haven't noticed any problems, but if you do, the forum actually has a few easy steps to get them to work again.)
However, just because it's not "included" doesn't mean it doesn't work. In fact, ANY robot will work with MSRS, since it's really just providing the logic services for the platform.
Here is our forum: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/roboticscommunity/threads
Bill
I would call myself not beeing guided a lot by prejudice. Somehow with M$-products this is different. "Studio": to me this sounds like 10 time more options than in M$-word.
Buggy, behaving strange, taking 30 hours to get a somehow overview of how it works.
compared to this "prejudice-picture" the propeller-tool is supereasy. 12-blocks is supereasy.
Of course loading the boebot-demofile might be easy. (even I doubt that I just install robotic studio finding the option to choose boebot-platform within one minute)
But how about I want the boebot to do 1.) ...., 2.)..... 3.).... My expectation about M$-products for this task is: Will be dammned annoying and taking several hours.
Sorry to write all this. Maybe it's all different with the MSRS. But I have been disappointed so much by M$-products. That I can't believe it any more. It disapointed me so much that it keeps me away from
even testing it for 5 minutes.
Do you know the tool named "Everything" ? Even if you have 5 Million files spread over 5 harddisks and you are using a old celeron notebook. It will filter and find filenames faster than you can type the characters.
And it keeps his database updated in REALTIME!!
it is a REAL BIG SHAME that microsoft isn't able to implement such a great and fast searchtool by themself !!!! What do they do? Keep indexing files at startup eating up 98% percent of CPU-power!
Are they even testing their software on medium actual medium clocked PC's? To me it seems they do only testing it on HIGH-perfomance servers with nothing else installed but windows and MS-office.
anyway best regards
Stefan
Thank you for answering my question.
I'm more confused because the forum is in sequential order and I would have to go through 60 pages or 982 messages because they aren't grouped by topic.
I don't know what boards the software works with or where to get them.
I found this on the Microsoft forum under how to get started:
"How I can begin working with MRDS?"
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/roboticscommunity/thread/9a98f4c3-0679-46c5-9df1-85293ba5be55
"1. Learn C#.
"2. Learn Visual Studio.
"3. Learn Programming in the process.
"4. Buy this book and read it 5 times... http://www.wrox.com/WileyCDA/WroxTitle/Professional-Microsoft-Robotics-"Developer-Studio.productCd-0470141077.html
"You're DONE :)The guy's answer may sound silly or flippant, but I've come to the same conclusion.
"The programming model takes some practice but I like it. Be prepared for a couple weeks of mental fog."
It sounds like you have to pretty much have to have too much time on your hands. I only heard about one microcontroller board I might like to think about but the above list makes it sound unappealing and I'm still further clueless as to where to get the board.
It definetly takes a little time to get used to the concepts, but once that happens, you'll quickly realize that it's not about the robot at all, but what you want the robot to do.
For example... most robots (the classic kind) are either stationary or movable. If it's movable, you generally want it to move in a particular direction... like Forward, Backwards, Turn Left or Turn Right. In MSRS, you define those actions (actually, that's already done for you) and give those commands to a service that "converts" them into the appropriate movement commands for the particular robot you are using.
That way, when you upgrade from a wheeled robot to a tracked robot... the base core logic of the robot doesn't change.... you're still telling it to move in a particular direction... it's just that the service that handles it does it in a slightly different way depending on the robot chassis. We've defined a bunch of "chassis" styles that can be adpated (or will run unmodified) for the various types of robots out there.
The Parallax BoeBot and the iRobot Create are two very different robots, however, you can program them the same exact way... abstracting out the differences via the services. You can then tie in other things... like cameras, joysticks, sensors, etc. the same generic way.
Also, the language is a bit odd, too. Most developers will actually start out with VPL (Visual Programming Language.) VPL is very similar to Hanno's 12 Blocks, in that you drag and drop services together and connect them with data/commands. It allows you to reuse functionallity quickly and easly between different robots.
As an example, I have several "basic services" components that I use... vision processing for example. One is a "line follower" service that has the logic built in. If I need to build a robot with line following... I simply drag that component into my VPL, set a couple properties on it and it's done. I have a generic "line tracker" object that allows me to use other services like a camera or a simple photodiode/led system to do my line tracking. Either sensor plugs into the generic line tracker service interface so that any robot can use the same logic.
By the way, you also don't actually need a real robot... you can construct the entire thing virtually (3d models) and run it in our simulation environment as well. You can build the entire robot and test every feature before you cut a single real wire assembling it. It's pretty cool.
Bill
I'm still using my EBT500... which hasn't quit working, so there is no reason to replace it for me.
Bill
However... take a look at this for a hint: http://blog.maordavid.com/ford-microsoft-showing-cars-with-custom-app-plat-running-win7-robotics-studio/
Bill
-dan
Might be after the holidays, however, as I have a ton of work to do until then.
Bill
After reading posts on the forum I understand that most don’t know where to begin looking for the Microsoft Robotics Studio and Boe-Bot; links on how to getting them to work together. Version 1.2 of MSRS has the C# code “part” for the Boe-Bot, but its not available anymore, as I understand. That doesn’t mean its all lost, these two links can get you started in making the required code. The 1st link has BS2 code for the ARobot from Arrick Robotics, the ARobot uses a Basic Stamp 2 for its microprocessor , and it also uses a coprocessors for it sensors and another one for the motors and one for steering……so the BS2 code has to be remade for the Boe-Bot witch only has one. The 2nd link is for the Boe-Bot from Parallax, it’s the Basic Stamp 2 code that communicates with MSRS Version 1.2. This code is made for a Bluetooth model not sold anymore this code has to be remade to communicate with the Boe-Bot……In All these codes can be usefull in making the new BS2 Driver for the Boe-Bot……..happy programming!!
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/companion/9780735624320
http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/src/prod/MSRS-Bluetooth-Boe-Bot-Code-v1.2.zip
*Note in the 1st link: the code for the ARobot is in Chapter 7 (the ARobot communicates with a Serial Cable): and Chapter 8 builds on top of it to make a internet security camera app. The Chapter 7 code for the ARobot comes 3 ways: the ARobot Folder contains the C# 2005 Visual Studio code, the DriveARobotByWire Folder contains the MSRS code v1.2, next to it is the BS.2 driver for the Basic Stam2.......I've tested them on MSRS (R2), and (R3), also in C# 2008 and C# 2010 express editions and they work of course they need to be updated. The BS.2 code works with the Basic Stamp 2 just needs modding for the Boe-Bot.
Actually, you don't have to do any of that. The code is actually all done. :-)
You can download the code for the ProMSRS book. You can go here: http://www.promrds.com/ and download their sample code, which includes the updated BoeBot manifests for the latest version of MSRS. It is still using the BlueTooth stack, however, it's quite simple to change the "microcode" for the BoeBot (which is included) to point to a serial port instead of the BlueTooth serial port. (From 1 to 16, if I remember correctly.)
Then you simply remove the "BlueTooth Service" from your code and instead use the "Simple Serial Port" service instead. You can replace the serial cable with any wireless version you want too... the code should work without modification after that.
Bill