Banning of "religious" wars...
John R.
Posts: 1,376
Whereas: These forums are dedicated to the discussion and sharing of information of Parallax related products, projects and ideas.
And Whereas: The deriding of one operating system, development environment, product (Parallax or otherwise) is not conducive to the enrichment of our collective experience.
And Whereas: At least some (many?) of the members here are sick and tired of seeing a "my XXXX is better than yours" and "your XXXXX sucks", and "your XXXX destroys my YYYY" followed by "it's not XXXXX's fault, it's ZZZZ's fault".
And Whereas: These types of rants get in the way of actual and productive discussions.
Therefore let it be resolved: Beginning on December 1, 2010, Parallax moderators will ban any users engaging in such "holy wars" for a period of 24 hours for the first offense.
Be it further resolved that each subsequent offense will result in an additional ban of double the previous ban for said user.
Be it further resolved that, being in the electronic device business, Parallax is unwilling to devote more than one byte per user tracking these offenses, that an offense after the 7th (that's the 8th offense), the user is banned for life.
And Whereas: The deriding of one operating system, development environment, product (Parallax or otherwise) is not conducive to the enrichment of our collective experience.
And Whereas: At least some (many?) of the members here are sick and tired of seeing a "my XXXX is better than yours" and "your XXXXX sucks", and "your XXXX destroys my YYYY" followed by "it's not XXXXX's fault, it's ZZZZ's fault".
And Whereas: These types of rants get in the way of actual and productive discussions.
Therefore let it be resolved: Beginning on December 1, 2010, Parallax moderators will ban any users engaging in such "holy wars" for a period of 24 hours for the first offense.
Be it further resolved that each subsequent offense will result in an additional ban of double the previous ban for said user.
Be it further resolved that, being in the electronic device business, Parallax is unwilling to devote more than one byte per user tracking these offenses, that an offense after the 7th (that's the 8th offense), the user is banned for life.
Comments
Maybe this should be "per thread" :-)
It happens from time to time, but I haven't really seen this kind of thing get out of hand in these forums. I'd hate to see people banned for getting on their high horse or blowing off a little steam once in awhile. Is there a particular thread you can cite that prompted your post?
-Phil
It's not going to happen.
People have strong opinions sometimes (like you) and some people are good at expressing them in a way that "ruffles feathers" and some people are good at expressing them in ways that don't offend others (most of the time). The first group should be gently and respectfully reminded that they're entitled to their opinions, but they need to be polite and respectful of others who may feel differently. The second group should be encouraged, particularly to share their skills with others that may benefit from them.
No, not really any one thread, but two that put me over the edge. The one thread on the iPhone "destroying" sdcards (both the pro and con MS side were BS), and the thread I started asking about a "Language Service" in the prop forum. The part that really got me going on that thread was sincerely not that it was my thread, but that another user apparently has similar feelings, and people just don't seem to get it.
No kidding :-)
I thought it might be fun to see how many people are sick of being made to feel "second class" because they use, or don't use, a particular flavor of something.
Quite frankly, somewhere between the world of the always politically correct, and the totally obnoxious, it would be nice to find a happy medium.
Unless someone is flaming me or another forum member, I really don't give a rat's patootee about threads of the sort being mentioned. Sometimes I glean useful information or another view, other times I smile, shrug and move on to the next thread.
Life is too short to begin with, and the older I get, the shorter IT gets - so why involve oneself in something that raises the ire?
This forum, in general, is largely free of flames and "war" posts...and for that I am very grateful.
It's not a new thing. Personally, I think it's not a good idea, but it looks like Samsung really intended the microSD card to be buried inside the unit and never removed by the user. I can see why they might have done it. You know, it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a manufacturer do something I considered stupid. I'm sure it won't be the last. Nobody is making me buy one.
Depending on where users click to reply to a thread, you can use the hybrid or threaded display mode to filter through the tangents.
I must be 100% honest with my forum members. I really dis like being flamed because I use M$ products. That being said, I have to admit, I have learned a lot from the "thrashing" provided by the various forum members as long as they explained WHY things happen. And when I say a lot, I do mean a lot. However, banning a subject prevents anyone from leaning about that subject. As long as a discussion can be had then any (appropriate content) subject matter is a viable thread. Banning any subject doesn't fix any problems caused by insensitive, disrespectful and belligerent users. These users can only be "fixed" via education and, if needed, more stern actions.
As suggested by another in this thread, I believe it was Mike Green; the "insensitive" and maybe offensive person should be reminded that opinions need to be expressed so as to encourage conversation, not kill it. The sad point of that is the return effects of such reminders. I know a few members of this forum whom take delight in offending others by how they phrase things.
I was a SYSOP (the predecessors of Forums, back in the day of DIAL UP systems) of a number of BBS and realized early on that if left unchecked, like I've seen it in several threads here, it will only get worse.
A Moderator must (sorry guys, I hate to task you like this), think of all posts in question as if it could be considered inflammatory of an already sensitive topic, and act in the better interest. Several posts in the Language Services were 100% OUT of line, and to add, the user DEFENDED their posts, not realizing they were asked to change things. Yeah, the Moderators have to look at this stuff and see if it's for the better good or not and if not, react privately to offensive user, and publicly for the education of all the other users. Sometimes what a moderator doesn't see as offensive; off topic and belligerent defiance, too many of us do. Lastly, if that user who's been "corrected" threatens to leave or drop off the face of the world, then let them know their actions are their call, but as long as the follow the general rules of respectful activity on the forum they are welcome back. And if not, then in all honestly, the users whom refuse to grow or learn from their mistakes aren't wanted here.
Sometimes being a Moderator bites, and sometimes it doesn't. Okay, for what it's worth that's just my humble opinion.
I wouldn't flame anyone for using any particular platform. They all have their merits. Personally there are a lot of Microsoft products that are really good. Windows XP for me has been rock solid and I've found that most of the issues people have with that OS are self inflicted. Either installing a bunch of extra random software that they don't know what it does, issues by third party drivers and devices (have you ever run the driver verifier and caught a driver with its hand in the cookie jar??) Some device drivers are very poorly written and cause problems many issues. They have often given the OS a bad rap. If you use the KISS principle with the OS it runs great. The main issues I have with MS is that really rubs me the wrong way that every time I want patches I have to re-authenticate with the "genuine advantage" garbage. (which at one point killed legitimate machines) That whole thing needs to go away. It just causes ill will for all the users with real licenses for the OS (like me).
I also use Linux on a regular basis and have it on a couple systems. Apples are fine (no better or worse than the others) but I don't have any software that runs on those machines so there is no reason to switch.
Robert
-Phil
For purposes of discussioin, of the 39 posts in the thread on the Language Service in Visual Studio, I counted 10 on topic, the rest, including some of my own, had nothing to do with it. How does a casual observer find the meaningful content?
Mor frustrating that the "holy wars", there was even a tangent on how to upgrade your OS, and what sites might be ligitamite sources for software and what might not.
Where is JP Allen when you need him?
-Phil
"Own" is certainly not what this is about. I'd guess that half the time I go to an older thread from a search, the thread is less than useful becuase A) There was never a real answer or
On a thread multiple pages long, when less than half the discussion is "on target", how do you find the useful information?
There is a difference between a related tangent, and topics that are either contrary to the original post topic (e.g. holy wars) or have nothing to do with it (e.g. where can I upgrade my OS).
This thought (a Language Service for Visual Studio) started germinating well before UPEW. I believe I even casually discussed it at UPEW with a couple people. I didn't post about it because, quite frankly, I didn't want to deal with that small minority of anti-MS zealots.
Then there was the thread on the MS Phone trashing SD Cards, and both sides got into it. That didn't downright trigger anything, and isn't what made me post on the Visual Studio topic, but it was subconciously floating around in the back of my feeble brain.
So I posted. Not only did the anti-MS folks show up, another user expresed their displeasure with the concept of anti-MS sentiments bothering them.
That's when I lost it. That's also when I waited at least a few minutes, but probably not long enough, and starting on a rampage.
The worst part of the whole thing is that too many people don't get it. It's not that MS is great, and everything else sucks. It's that they all have their place, and ranting about how terrible one or another choice (the "holy war") is just totally bogus.
For those patiently dealing with me, thank you. I'm still "mad as hell", but at least my blood pressure is down to manageable...
How are "off topic" posts on a thread any different than "non-propeller" posts in the Prop forum?
Same concept, different level of granularity. :-)
John R.
It just feels like any time people bring up an Microsoft product or something that only works on Windows, several of these people *HAVE* to chime in with how evil Microsoft is (OMGZ EVIL M$, I will use a $ for the S to be funny about how they are so rich and greedy), and how they would much prefer a linux version or about how linux is so much better because of X or Y.
When we are talking about an extension to a Microsoft product that we have to use, we don't care to read about "how evil M$" is or have people chime in with their opinion that linux is more practical that Windows.
Also, for the record, I use Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows Home Server (Server 2003), Linux (2 flavors), and Mac OS X on my various machines at home. I use them for different things, I don't love or hate any of them, and I certainly don't avoid one or the other because I dislike that the company that makes it happens to be a successful company in our economy.
If I chose not to use product based on the practices of the company that makes it, I would be forced into the stone ages. Unable to use 90% of the things I use on a daily basis... it just doesn't seem practical to me.
Microsoft and Apple are two companies that won the computer wars. Everyone else has to follow whether they like it or not except for the minority users like Amiga and Linux users.
Back in the day, whatever people bought was what they would stick to and boards were filled with debates as to whom was better.
It is simply business. The bottom line is money and it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong because they're in business and the money will dictate what they do over personal feelings of any and most users.
If you want a better operating system, build it. If you want a better computer then build it.
I personally don't feel sorry for Apple or Microsoft getting bashed because most of them are millionaires. Microsoft bought out Sublogic that made the flight simulator and they stopped the product because of money.
Apple is for people who make more than me and Microsoft is paid to write bloated operating systems. Most everyone is happy because most hobbyists want to get on the internet so most have abandoned any of the other competition because there are few chip makers these days and people aren't going to borrow a million dollars just to challenge IBM or Apple.
The fact is these companies are going to throw money at where they think the market is and everyone else who has feelings who isn't a customer is tought out of luck; they just aren't going to change the path of billions of dollars in revenue for a few people.
Disclaimer: I own Microsoft products.
All of the above, and also OS/2 (the eCS v2.0 edition)
If someone posts a 'My xxx is better than your yyy' as a response to a post I make, I won't mind... As long as he can put facts behind his words.
Pure CPU power, the number of I/O, price or availability of 'industry standard' programming languages doesn't always count most. (Fitness for purpose counts rather high, and for a hobbyist like me, price matters less as I buy one-offs, not thousands, CPU power is really a joke in microcontrollers as all wait at the same speed... And most control apps are mostly waiting... C and C++ gives me hives... Everything is pointers, or Friggin! pointers to pointers! And if you're not careful, you probably end up with pointers to those, too...)
If he can't come up with a good explanation, I will probably alert the mods about trolling.
If it happens again, I'll use whatever tools exist at the forum in question to ignore the user.
(If it happens on MY forum, it's Hasta La Vista, baby! )
As for the JesusPhone / WhinePhone debacle... Make mine Symbian...
(I've been programming on the 16bit SIBO predecessor since 1995, the EPOC version since 1997. Even done a bit of programming on the 8bit precursors, turning a Psion Organiser II into a decent bicycle computer. )
Sometimes to get along and make friends, you just have to accept other people the way they are whether or not they've gone to college and can make persuasive opinions or not. Not everyone can tell you why but not everyone is dumb. My political science professor in college asked us to ask our grandparents and older people about issues for the same reason that everyone is not dumb.
Windows is a bloated operating system because there are about 50 drivers in it for different displays because not everyone manufacturer sells the same display. The truth is Windows could be smaller and faster and possibly fly if the operating system fit on the hard drive and fit the size of a floppy disk and not have to go through thousands of files to make it work.
I had a bad computer so I called up Microsoft. My computer kept resetting the system registry so every time I added programs, the programs would disappear. I called Microsoft and they said to contact my computer manufacturer and they hung up on me. They're millionaires so they can afford to hang the phone up on me or on anyone. I spent about two to three years trying to fix the computer. I sent it out to a shop and they only took my money. I ended up fixing it but Microsoft would only help a little if they could take my money.
The truth is there are Amiga users who are still writing programs today because the machines are that good. Their operating system fits on a floppy disk. The Amiga was still graphically faster than the first couple of Pentiums and Amigas still retain their values. When is the last time you saw an Apple or an IBM 8080 on Ebay for hundreds of dollars? But people still pay large sums for Amiga computers on Ebay because they are worth a lot. Commodore couldn't compete because the federal government actually gave AMD and IBM millions of dollars to put into research and development but that doesn't mean that Microsoft Windows was a lot better and some of the Commodore money kept Microsoft afloat in the early days. Remember that IBM lost a lot of money with the IBM PC Jr and it cost a lot more than a lot of computers.
but I preferr teh *NIX and OSX based systems for my personal work .
I edit video and music with $7K in software . there is NO way Ill just dump my SW for a diffenrt OS just cause the Hardware may seem cheeper .
saveing $500 on a laptop is not worth CS5$$$.. AVID $$$... Protools $$$ and so forth .
second I use apple for a few verty uniquuw reasons I need . If Dell wants to copy the fetures I need I might consider switching .. and frankly it changes so fast that In 3 years what i have wil be trash anyways so ill reconsider again in 3-4 years . this last year I stayed with apple for its OS . I hate change
I have asbergers syndrome .. us aaspies hate change.. I went from OS9 PPC G4 to OS 10.4 X86 in one month and I hated it . not the OS but the time to relearn everything ..
and there is NO way Il relearn windows Vista or 7 with is funky gui ..
If 7 Looked Just like 2K I may consider but I have No time to relardn a entire OS just to do work .
Apple has thease neet tricks I like tjhat I use every day ..
FIREWIRE DISK MODE .
I can slave ANY mac with Firewire to be a HD and I can boot from it . its great for fast transfers and backing up .
NO where in the Windows - GNU/Linux world do I see a thing like this where the Entire HD is writable with out of a OS ..
Now USB 3.0 with is TRUE real time bi-directional capabilities may support it somehow and thus the PC industry may support it in the BIOS as a Boot option . who knows .
Bluetooth . every mac from 06 on has BT Stock . no searching for at teh computer store it OR a dinky USB port waisting dongle eather that can snap off . its Just there .. stock .
My phone is BT my Key boards are all BT My hacked coffee pot was BT ( till the carraff broke ) my printer is BT ,, my head set is BT .
backlit Keybords on all mac book Pro models.. there are times I need to see at night what I type .
dell has it with there $1500 studio 15 .." as a option" . its bean stock the 15 and 17 G4 Power books for the last 5 years ... and the all the 13 15 and 17" mac book pros .
LONG batt life , Ill be upfron the 10Hh batt is relly only 6-7 under real use but thats stil a boat load more then a stock PC . and NO 70000000 cell clunkers do not count there pathetic ..I have only ran out of juce a few times on my macs . I never bring My brck with me I leave it in my room .
its great .. I have a 6 cell batt too its a 120 AH AGM battire LOLS ..
SD BOOT Yes some PCs have it but its still hit and miss. its stock on apple MacBook Pro and MacMini and Imac ..
32G SDXC with Win7 on it .. WHOO HOO !!
Yes apple costs more but I value My time more then $$$ I rather shove 1K on a laptop that lasts 2 years and never needs a oil change then a cheap clunker from the super store that need shop time for things that break ..
the ONLY PC laptop Ill ever continue to own is toughbooks. but then again there not consumer walmart stuff ...
I priced a laptop for a lady here in college ,.. she wanted 4 H batt life and a FW port and bluetooth .
the sony I found was $ 9 hundred somthing with out the bigger batt pack . that costs allmost 200 more .'
Yes the sony was a 15 not a 13 but she did not care about screen size .
the Macbook pro 13 is $1099 Student . . andddddd it can still run MS windows If she wants too.
she needed it that day so she got the sony .. . not a bad computer but it was NO super duper value besides the screen ..
and sony is just as locked in to HW as some macs .
Memory stick is a cheep resized SD card . MEMstick as NO advantage over the INDUSTRY stantard SD and CF system . and there are like 6 kinds of MStick types too .. gosh , make up your mind sony .
I think the OS topic is fine the way it is ..
i have not seen the other so I have no input on that ..
From what I see One person was truely harassed or flaimed .
and if anyone was closed to being buggged it was Bill .
I dont see him ticked off .
I respect him . I may not like the company he works for but I dont let that change my response .
pointing out flaws in products makes them better .
pointing out flaws on users does not . and as far as I see no users were being targeted and trashed ..
I hear all kinds of Smile online . I have had to grow a VERY thick skin
and I filter out what I dont like .
IMHO the issue with the Ipad and the Win Phone does has a place here..
USers are allwas asking us how to link there phones to there Parallax projects ..
users Should know of phone flaws . so users dont be alarmed when they have phone XYZ not work with a BS2 and a yada-yada ..
also lets face it .. we are all geeks . we LOVE to talk shop .
its what I know I do and ill bet most of you do to .
it lets us vent as one user said .
as long as the only 4 letter word I hear is SMPS . ill be happy
no one in the SD card thread I think was being rude or brash .
we all just expressed as the geeks we are what WE thought of the Devices flaws .
its what engineers do .. we analyze its part of the design cycle ..
there are thread here on this board that I think are not suitable for here .
but unless there SPAM . I dont think its my place to speek up .
the MODs here I think are very proactive . .
unless its a legal issue like "XXX" I don't think we should censor or ban for expressing our opinions as lon as it stays civil .
if a user started to say wjsteele ( user ) I HATE YOU FOR MAKING A CRAPPY OS YOU SUCK ... then yes a PM then a ban is in order but as long as were not shouting and being down right rude .I feel freedom is way more improtaint then "thin skin "
If I dont want to see a post I scroll over it . to the next one ..
Its effective
Q: What do you call it when rodeo cowboys go on a religious crusade?
A: A yee-hawed
Friends? What's that? ;-)
To add ot my 'prove it' argumentation, I don't necessarily expect hard numbers(those I can figure out myself), but when someone posts a completely unneccessary 'Mine is better', I will expect some justification.
Amiga. Nice system, pity about the disk interface.
(I have an A500 and an A600hd, with a few extra bits and pieces laying about. Need to catalog and properly document it all. Got a shedload of other Commodore stuff, too)
Remember playing lots of games on one belonging to a friend in the early 90s. Good times...
I don't think you can always be friendly and make demands on people.
I think one of the strength of these forums are members helping one another. Will everyone go out of their way to help someone that makes demands on people? Can you control the person who helps you?
I would be more worried about the person who gives me help who doesn't have an opinion on a piece of hardware. Anyway, these hardware companies aren't meant to be worshipped and there is no such thing as a holy cow.
I also believe their ULAS (these companies) restrict freedom, innovation and my personal rights so therefore I don't believe in them.
Here as well in other public places, we might not like, but must accept someone elses opinion. Kind of like taking the good with the bad. But not exactly.
See, I really don't mind someone expressing their opinion; and a good conversation about the reasons behind that opinion. Going beyond that, or taking one subject and "twisting" it into another discussion (hijacking) is really rude. Not realizing it, and be sarcastic when it's pointed out to the "offender" really "grinds my gears." If your wrong, your wrong. Don't try to "hide" it by trying to bury it into something it wasn't; like saying "my little joke wasn't taken well" or what have you.
Thanks for reading.
I realize that some people don't like MS... that's totally fine. Whenever I see a topic that I can add a little information too, however, I'll gladly do that.
I personally don't care what technology you use or don't use... that's your business and a simple forum post most likely isn't going to change that. I totally understand that you're never going to win a religious war against someone who is certain they are right.
However, as a good Microsoft employee, I'll try my best to show the otherside of the story from my own "biased" opinion or my own personal knowledge on a topic. For example, the Windows Phone, I've been heavily involved in that product since way before it was launched and I know the "real" stories of what happened and why. Some things I can not discuss (like why Verizon doesn't have one right now) and others I can (like why there is no SD support in the OS.)
I am a developer first... and my only development environments are Notepad and Visual Studio. I've worked in Visual Studio (or prior versions) since the old "Professional Development System" and QuickBasic 3.x days. I'm also well aware of how the language services work and have offered my help to the community to help get this up and running.
As for the anti-ms comments in that thread, you'll notice that I simply ignored them. To each his own and that is perfectly all right by me. I don't take offense to it one way or another. However, like I said, if I find innaccurate information, I'll gladly correct it so that any neutral party will see both sides or get a more accurate story.
Cheers,
Bill