As a practical matter, my inclination is to avoid dev tools that put an onus on the user of one's software to install something as huge and intrusive as .NET. I won't have .NET on my WinXP box, which means I won't use programs that require it. "The best apps are self-contained apps"TM, like the ones Parallax produces.
Phil,
No windows App is truly self contained. They all use at least 2-3 windows OS dlls. It's more a matter of how many dependencies you are willing to live with, than if you have any at all. Sure you could argue that stuff that comes with the OS doesn't count the same as stuff you need to install.
Well, .NET comes with Windows Vista and Windows 7, so it's not unreasonable to make an application that depends on .NET these days. Especially considering that the combined Vista and 7 installed base is fast approaching the point of overtaking the XP installed base. It's only a matter of a year or so.
Anyway, Batang's IDE looks really nice, I for one would like to try it out if he makes it license free.
I've looked a little into the Language Service stuff, and I talked with a friend that is in the process of making one for DirectX shaders. He says that you can make a Language Service that will work under both VS 2008 and VS 2010, it just may need a recompile. So it'll probably be two versions, but with a common source. I still plan to attempt something with it, but not until after some other things on my plate get farther along.
I am still using XP on one laptop and Vista on the other. I would like to upgrade to W7 but the cost is half that of a new laptop with W7 included - makes no sense to me so I stay with what I have.
We now usually have the space (if we clear something out) to do the VS express or .NET install if there is an advantage and this would surely be one!
Phil Pilgrim
As a practical matter, my inclination is to avoid dev tools that put an onus on the user of one's software to install something as huge and intrusive as .NET. I won't have .NET on my WinXP box, which means I won't use programs that require it.
But I bet you have Java installed on your WinXp box and what is .NET but MS answer to Java.
And cross platform Java based IDE's don't run in a vacuum, anyway .NET 2.0 a paltry 20 something megabyte download for WinXP ans as previously pointed out not required for Vista and above.
My apologies, I should have known better. It's a link that I had saved in my bookmarks. My initial lookup on Google didn't turned out anything but opinions & advices from know-it-all type of people. Nothing evidential. I looked up Adobe, MS, & Autodesk and have not seen any specific warnings or even entries in their respective website besides some comments in their forums with similar postings from know-it-all bloggers.
How did you found out that they are located in Russia?
Anyway, I'll edit my previous post to stay on the safer side.
With thanks.
Cheers,
Alex
*EDIT*
p.s.: I couldn't edit the previous posting properly so I deleted it with the mention "Dubious advice, probably unsafe - my mistake".
It's also interesting to have at look at the street address they give in Connecticut with Google Street view. seems to be the home of Fidelity Investments.
He said calmly, of the 39 posts to this point, I counted only 10 that specifically discussed the concept of a Language Service or other extension in Visual Studio, and maybe a another couple vaguely tied in about needing .NET or whatever.
How does a casual observer, who may have an interest in the topic of the thread find the meaningful content?
For those who replied on topic, thank you for the feedback, especially those who had some input on what is involved.
Like others, I am "intrigued" with the concept, but don't know where, or if, it fits in my schedule.
If anyone wants to continue a discussion on how to potentially persue this, please contact me via PM or e-mail.
My apologies, I should have known better. It's a link that I had saved in my bookmarks. My initial lookup on Google didn't turned out anything but opinions & advices from know-it-all type of people. Nothing evidential. I looked up Adobe, MS, & Autodesk and have not seen any specific warnings or even entries in their respective website besides some comments in their forums with similar postings from know-it-all bloggers.
How did you found out that they are located in Russia?
Anyway, I'll edit my previous post to stay on the safer side.
With thanks.
Cheers,
Alex
*EDIT*
p.s.: I couldn't edit the previous posting properly so I deleted it with the mention "Dubious advice, probably unsafe - my mistake".
As long as we're this far off - the FAQ on the site is also a dead give-a-way. Statements like "no hardcopy like manuals and licenses...", (ya, who needs a license) and "you have to totally uninstall any prior versions and do a fresh install" (as in, if there are any hooks to a "real license" in the registry, you may have problems), and "don't call the software maker, call our crack support team" (don't let the original publisher know you have this software). These types of things, as well as totally rediculously low prices should raise more than a few red flags.
I think the concept and the work done already has great merit. I love the way VS can highlite the operators and the tooltips and intellisense features. It would make programming so much easier for the newbies.
I think the concept and the work done already has great merit. I love the way VS can highlite the operators and the tooltips and intellisense features. It would make programming so much easier for the newbies.
That's just the start. I believe that one could also easily port in things like conditional compiles, etc. and using tools from BST, etc., get the prop loaded, or at a minimum, output a clean "spin" file for use by other tools.
I'm just starting to dig into what a "Language Service" can do, and what it takes to do it.
That's just the start. I believe that one could also easily port in things like conditional compiles, etc. and using tools from BST, etc., get the prop loaded, or at a minimum, output a clean "spin" file for use by other tools.
I'm just starting to dig into what a "Language Service" can do, and what it takes to do it.
John R.
Why not just use the normal pre-processor that comes with Visual Studio?
I'm not trying to belittle BST and friends, but it lacks #include ..., #if ..., and #elseif ... statements .
The regular C preprocessor can be used with Propeller Tool today with {} on separate lines before and after these statements.
Why not just use the normal pre-processor that comes with Visual Studio?
I'm not trying to belittle BST and friends, but it lacks #include ..., #if ..., and #elseif ... statements .
The regular C preprocessor can be used with Propeller Tool today with {} on separate lines before and after these statements.
I think we're on the same wave length. My thought was to use the built in tools for things like #include, #ifdef, etc., but use the BST tools (or portions of them) so that if you did something like an "F5" (debug) it (Visual Studio) would have the shell commands to compile the Spin/PASM code, download it to the Prop, and launch PST (or something). Maybe "BST" isn't the right set of tools, but something to take a Spin file and stuff it into a Prop...
Or are you thinking along the lines of forgoing the "Language Service" and just using Visual Studio "as is" to get a Spin file out and load it with the other tools?
I think we're on the same wave length. My thought was to use the built in tools for things like #include, #ifdef, etc., but use the BST tools (or portions of them) so that if you did something like an "F5" (debug) it (Visual Studio) would have the shell commands to compile the Spin/PASM code, download it to the Prop, and launch PST (or something). Maybe "BST" isn't the right set of tools, but something to take a Spin file and stuff it into a Prop...
I think BST/BSTC (BSTC specifically) is the right set of tools. The BSTC compiler is fast and it offers optimizations like trimming unused code, etc... The BSTC loader can operate in fast mode. A debugger is much easier to implement with BSTC's .list files. There are all kinds of reasons to use BSTC and I use it all the time with .... VIM (thank you Bill Joy!)
It's just that preprocessor support is not standard and customary. Not having #include is a crime when you need to have the same PASM code in multiple files. Both BSTC and homespun fail in this regard.
I really don't know about "language service" ... I'll let you and others deal with that. I do know that I like Visual Studio for development though. I use Linux mostly, but I've paid for and used the VS superior user interface many times before. I still use it on my netbook often.
Or are you thinking along the lines of forgoing the "Language Service" and just using Visual Studio "as is" to get a Spin file out and load it with the other tools?
I've already done this with Eclipse and it did not really add any value for me - Java on Eclipse is a completely different story with it's tight, productive integration. A fully integrated solution with "IntelliSense" and the customary debugger (minus recompile and patch at run time I guess) makes sense - anything else would probably be disappointing to me.
Comments
'Not ranting, 'just sayin'...
-Phil
No windows App is truly self contained. They all use at least 2-3 windows OS dlls. It's more a matter of how many dependencies you are willing to live with, than if you have any at all. Sure you could argue that stuff that comes with the OS doesn't count the same as stuff you need to install.
Well, .NET comes with Windows Vista and Windows 7, so it's not unreasonable to make an application that depends on .NET these days. Especially considering that the combined Vista and 7 installed base is fast approaching the point of overtaking the XP installed base. It's only a matter of a year or so.
Anyway, Batang's IDE looks really nice, I for one would like to try it out if he makes it license free.
I've looked a little into the Language Service stuff, and I talked with a friend that is in the process of making one for DirectX shaders. He says that you can make a Language Service that will work under both VS 2008 and VS 2010, it just may need a recompile. So it'll probably be two versions, but with a common source. I still plan to attempt something with it, but not until after some other things on my plate get farther along.
I am still using XP on one laptop and Vista on the other. I would like to upgrade to W7 but the cost is half that of a new laptop with W7 included - makes no sense to me so I stay with what I have.
We now usually have the space (if we clear something out) to do the VS express or .NET install if there is an advantage and this would surely be one!
But I bet you have Java installed on your WinXp box and what is .NET but MS answer to Java.
And cross platform Java based IDE's don't run in a vacuum, anyway .NET 2.0 a paltry 20 something megabyte download for WinXP ans as previously pointed out not required for Vista and above.
Cheers
This site is legit, and has Win7 Home Premium 64bit OEM for $99.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116754
They also have the Retail Upgrade version of the above for $109.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116713
Not sure where you are getting a laptop worth using that is only $220 bucks...
My apologies, I should have known better. It's a link that I had saved in my bookmarks. My initial lookup on Google didn't turned out anything but opinions & advices from know-it-all type of people. Nothing evidential. I looked up Adobe, MS, & Autodesk and have not seen any specific warnings or even entries in their respective website besides some comments in their forums with similar postings from know-it-all bloggers.
How did you found out that they are located in Russia?
Anyway, I'll edit my previous post to stay on the safer side.
With thanks.
Cheers,
Alex
*EDIT*
p.s.: I couldn't edit the previous posting properly so I deleted it with the mention "Dubious advice, probably unsafe - my mistake".
Under linux there is the "whois" command. Which gives us the following information about the owners of crystal-downloads.com
# whois crystal-downloads.com Domain: crystal-downloads.com Status: Protected DNS: aa.linkedns.net bb.linkedns.net Created: 2010-07-13 23:42:46 Expires: 2011-07-13 23:42:46 Last Modified: 2010-07-13 23:42:46 Registrant Contact: Oksana Bojko Oksana Bojko (mud@freenetbox.ru) ul.Pobedy d.3 kv.81 Stroitel, Belgorodskaya oblast, RU 309070 P: +7.4722213321 F: +7.4722213321 Administrative Contact: Oksana Bojko Oksana Bojko (mud@freenetbox.ru) ul.Pobedy d.3 kv.81 Stroitel, Belgorodskaya oblast, RU 309070 P: +7.4722213321 F: +7.4722213321 Technical Contact: Oksana Bojko Oksana Bojko (mud@freenetbox.ru) ul.Pobedy d.3 kv.81 Stroitel, Belgorodskaya oblast, RU 309070 P: +7.4722213321 F: +7.4722213321 Billing Contact: Oksana Bojko Oksana Bojko (mud@freenetbox.ru) ul.Pobedy d.3 kv.81 Stroitel, Belgorodskaya oblast, RU 309070 P: +7.4722213321 F: +7.4722213321It's also interesting to have at look at the street address they give in Connecticut with Google Street view. seems to be the home of Fidelity Investments.
How does a casual observer, who may have an interest in the topic of the thread find the meaningful content?
For those who replied on topic, thank you for the feedback, especially those who had some input on what is involved.
Like others, I am "intrigued" with the concept, but don't know where, or if, it fits in my schedule.
If anyone wants to continue a discussion on how to potentially persue this, please contact me via PM or e-mail.
As long as we're this far off - the FAQ on the site is also a dead give-a-way. Statements like "no hardcopy like manuals and licenses...", (ya, who needs a license) and "you have to totally uninstall any prior versions and do a fresh install" (as in, if there are any hooks to a "real license" in the registry, you may have problems), and "don't call the software maker, call our crack support team" (don't let the original publisher know you have this software). These types of things, as well as totally rediculously low prices should raise more than a few red flags.
John R.
I think the concept and the work done already has great merit. I love the way VS can highlite the operators and the tooltips and intellisense features. It would make programming so much easier for the newbies.
That's just the start. I believe that one could also easily port in things like conditional compiles, etc. and using tools from BST, etc., get the prop loaded, or at a minimum, output a clean "spin" file for use by other tools.
I'm just starting to dig into what a "Language Service" can do, and what it takes to do it.
John R.
Why not just use the normal pre-processor that comes with Visual Studio?
I'm not trying to belittle BST and friends, but it lacks #include ..., #if ..., and #elseif ... statements .
The regular C preprocessor can be used with Propeller Tool today with {} on separate lines before and after these statements.
I think we're on the same wave length. My thought was to use the built in tools for things like #include, #ifdef, etc., but use the BST tools (or portions of them) so that if you did something like an "F5" (debug) it (Visual Studio) would have the shell commands to compile the Spin/PASM code, download it to the Prop, and launch PST (or something). Maybe "BST" isn't the right set of tools, but something to take a Spin file and stuff it into a Prop...
Or are you thinking along the lines of forgoing the "Language Service" and just using Visual Studio "as is" to get a Spin file out and load it with the other tools?
John R.
It's just that preprocessor support is not standard and customary. Not having #include is a crime when you need to have the same PASM code in multiple files. Both BSTC and homespun fail in this regard.
I really don't know about "language service" ... I'll let you and others deal with that. I do know that I like Visual Studio for development though. I use Linux mostly, but I've paid for and used the VS superior user interface many times before. I still use it on my netbook often.
I've already done this with Eclipse and it did not really add any value for me - Java on Eclipse is a completely different story with it's tight, productive integration. A fully integrated solution with "IntelliSense" and the customary debugger (minus recompile and patch at run time I guess) makes sense - anything else would probably be disappointing to me.
John R.