Electronic Kits
hmlittle59
Posts: 404
Hello All,
If someone/business (Electronic Mag.)...Not to mention names...sales/distribute a kit, what is the product liability if it fails...(does not work/burns up/works wrong) to the person whom designed it or business who sold it. Can it be that's why they sell it as a kit? Whom out there knows about this or were to get the info on it.
With kits you can avoid the(FCC/ UL) testing if I'm correct??? Any help please.
Thanks again
Howard
If someone/business (Electronic Mag.)...Not to mention names...sales/distribute a kit, what is the product liability if it fails...(does not work/burns up/works wrong) to the person whom designed it or business who sold it. Can it be that's why they sell it as a kit? Whom out there knows about this or were to get the info on it.
With kits you can avoid the(FCC/ UL) testing if I'm correct??? Any help please.
Thanks again
Howard
Comments
That said, a reputable dealer will often replace the kit as long as the consumer presents a non-working, but reasonably competently assembled device. They're under no obligation to do so other than the desire to maintain good will.
FCC / UL approval applies to finished products although the FCC has the authority to remove a kit from the market if it is designed to bypass FCC regulations. This has come up with linear amplifier kits designed for CB use where these are illegal.
Ye with the best lawyers wins!
Ye with the deepest pockets is A) Mostly like got the best lawyers, but
Also:
If you're asking for purposes of potentially offering a kit, keep in mind, that regardless of who wins, getting sued can be expensive to win.
Don't know why you're asking, so it's hard to give a "complete" answer.
John R.
This applies to "intentional radiators" (i.e. transmitters). I'm not sure how it might apply to "unintentional radiators".
-Phil
Welcome to the nanny state.
PE - Avoid "gross negligence" and/or being the "proximate cause". [Some good legal buzzwords.]
But this isn't about "Electronic Kits", afterall - it's about Torts.
The way you phrased your post, intended or not, carries the suggestion that companies only supply kits so as to push out unreliable goods and rip off the consumer.
This is an attitude that should not be fostered. It does a great dis- service to all those brave souls who create kits in this litigious modern world. I really don't want their efforts to be thwarted. My experience of buying and constructing kits has been all positive:
1) The quality has been excellent.
2) The prices reasonable.
3) Help when things go wrong has always been forthcoming.
4) Often the finished item is something that is not available on the consumer market.
Historically it goes like this:
0) Philips Electronic Experimenter Kits.
1) Advance calculator kit supplied by Wireless World Magazine. In 1972 when calculators were big and expensive. Digital calculators were unheard of for consumers.
2) Sinclair stereo audio system. Yes Sinclair was into amps and radios before calculators and computers.
3) Helium-Neon laser from Maplin Electronics. This had an underrated transformer that melted in use. They replaced it with a better one without fuss.
4) Various robot gadgets in recent years for my son.
And so on. This is some a somewhat historical list but I'm happy to see that the world is now full of robot kits, AVR and Propeller kits and all kinds of electronic dodads.
Howard
Are those conditions part of 'product liability'?
It is a tough call as it is usually the novice that buys a kit in order to learn, and yet it requires having acquired some skill and knowledge to avoid making these kinds of mistakes.
A really good kit has really good documentation about everything and every step of the way, but many just offer a parts list, a schematic, and one page of instructions.
On a 'kit item'(amplifier/computer/whirlamagig), it's always a good idea to include good pictures that shows the orientation of components. And of course, a big warning about checking this, looking for solder bridges and so on before powering up for the first time.
On analog circuits, it may also be an idea to measure the resistance between different points, so that the builder can measure those for verification.
If possible, also 'divide up' complex circuitry so that the builder can assemble them block-by-block, and verify each individually.
Either 'by instructions' - solder in components R1 - R10, S1, C1 - C4 and T1, measure resistance, and if normal, plug in an verify correct voltage between Pad 1 and 2.
Or by separate PCBs.
This can also be a good point to explain the functioning of the circuits and why those measurements are found.
If feasible, always have silkscreened PCBs with drawings of critical components.
And always add reverse-polarity proctection.
(Would you believe that some laptops don't have this? One reason not to buy Packard Bell... As I learned when using a third-party 12V adapter in my car... )
If you can find an old Heathkit manual, use that as a model. About 10 minutes after my grandfather taught me how to solder without burning myself, he set me to work on a decade resistor and decade capacitor kit, then an intercom system. I was probably about 7 or 8 at the time, and everything worked. I don't really remember much, but I do know that I didn't know a resistor from a capacitor, much less something like a diode, before I started.
John R.
Liability is yet another story. We carry Errors and Omission insurance policies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errors_and_omissions_insurance that protect us against how our customers use our products.
Do you need to worry about E&O insurance? Probably not yet - if you're going to bootstrap the effort and generate revenue before you start to formalize your business then I'd suggest you begin by making the products you want to make and trying to sell them. Nothing is as important as the actual experience of success and failure.
Perhaps your biggest worries will be business license, sales tax collection and reporting and internet sales taxation. Legislators in the USA are preparing to get involved in sales tax collection across state lines and for annual sales over a certain amount ($200? $600?). At the moment there's still some freedom. I haven't researched this in a bit, mostly because it's depressing and there's not much that can be done other than voting for certain politicians who support your interests.
I'm taking notes from all your inputs.
thanks
Howard
Can someone avoid FCC/UL testing? Sure, the wall wart is UL tested; your product is 5 volts.
FCC? Again sure, we see a lot of little boards for WiFi and remote control that are sold as components rather than finished product.
Product liability? Don't make firearms or sky diving equipment. Stay at 12 volts and under and less that 500ma and there really isn't much to go wrong unless the user adds something powerful enough to cause mayhem. That is the user's choice, not the original intent of the product (for learning electronics in a safe environment).
One of my neighbors built a HeathKit color TV when I was young. I suspect today no company would dare to consider anything as elaborate as that. Sure, the IF circuits were sealed and pre-tuned, but he did have to wire all the high voltage, the power supply and tons of other circuitry - then calibrate everything to get a good picture (finally gave up and paid a shop to do that).
We're not lawyers but I think you should go study the warning labels on ladders at your hardware store. People have sued ladder companies and while you can't prevent a pig farmer from putting one up in a pig pen, you can bet that a farmer has put it in mud and has fallen from the slippery surface and sued the ladder manufacturer.
If someone gets hurt and can't pay for hospitalization then what recourse do some people have other than to sue??? This is why ladder manufacturers have many many warnings for their products. Every time they get sued, they add another warning to their product list.
It depends on the State and I can't directly answer your question.
Perhaps your biggest worries will be business license, sales tax collection and reporting and internet sales taxation. Legislators in the USA are preparing to get involved in sales tax collection across state lines and for annual sales over a certain amount ($200? $600?). At the moment there's still some freedom. I haven't researched this in a bit, mostly because it's depressing and there's not much that can be done other than voting for certain politicians who support your interests.[/QUOTE]
@Ken
It might be even worse, when I was renewing an IRA CD last week at the bank during a discussion on investments and the economy in general the investment agent mentioned something they are concerned about and could be very evil.
There is talk at the goverment of a Good and Services Tax(GST) like Europe and Canada has. He said a 27 percent GST sales tax added to everything purchased in order to pay off the many trillion debt is being discussed. I have not been able to find any thing online about it and wondered if you have. Also I think the 27 percent value is a purposely chosen large scarry level so you will be happy and relieved with 15 percent . The people at the bank thought it would kill the economy but there are some in gov who are seeing if it will fly.
Tom
Do you mean something like Value Added tax (VAT) in the UK?
That is evil. Basically as a company you have to pay VAT on everything you buy.
As a company you have to collect VAT from all your customers on everything you sell.
At the end of the day the company is only out of pocket by the difference. A tax on the "value added". The poor consumer gets stuffed for the lot.
Of course accountancy and book keeping firms love this as it's a huge pile of work you have to pay them to deal with.
Yes they may propose it at an outrageous 27% so they can make you feel better when it is negotiated down to 15% on introduction. BUT, like all taxes, it can have a habit of creeping up. Here in Finland it is 23%, I think the highest is Sweden at 25%.
Now the really nice thing about this is that, in the UK for example, VAT is collected not by the normal Inland Revenue tax collectors but by Customs and Excise. Those are the guys responsible for ensuring goods are taxed on entry to the country and searching out illegal contraband, like drugs say. As such they have powers you don't want to mess with. Fail to pay your VAT and they can have you arrested, flung in jail, seize all your property etc etc. As if you were a serious drug dealer. There is no room for negotiation.
Welcome to poverty USA.
Alan Greenspan supported the idea in lieu of a National Income Tax. I am not exactly sure where Ben B. stands on the issue, but it would be a 'sea change' in American Taxation.
But the really heart of American's problems are that there are huge burdens on the employer that is a small business to collect income tax and social security for the government and to provide worker's compensation and unemployment insurance for the employee. It makes it very difficult to start a small enterprise of just a few employees, get your product to customers, and handle all the paperwork in a legitimate fashion. And so, small enterprises usually have to cheat, pretend to have few employees, find it attractive to hire illegal aliens as they can't afford to complain, rotate a lot of temporary employees in dead end positions, and so on.
Small business is the heart beat of America and has nearly always provided most of the job creation. But it seems absurdly difficult to have a 'mom and pops' kind of enterprise anymore. Employer requirements and other regulation, like the Rohs requirements, seemed to be far more predatory and deceptive then of real benefit. Only the big survive. For instance, in the run up to Rohs compliance everyone was encouraged to create two production lines and parallel inventories when the only realistic approach was to have a 100% Rohs compliance even if you are not part of that market. Parallel inventories for two markets is a complete management nightmare, but a heck of a lot of money was wasted in trying to do so.
I'm still picking off needed info and taking lots of notes. I will (Google) a heath kit manual and re-do my current instructions. I already had lots of Photo's of completed boards(how it should look completed). Web pages coming along slowly but things have pickup in the last couple of weeks. Grew bigger then I expected but so far manageable. Will need to learn how to connect Adobe Files and Schematics next. I bounced around to different sites getting ideals and making comparisons.
Thanks again to ALL...will be checking back.
Howard