Dual source AC on one motor

parsko

Hi all,

Been a while, odd question...

I have a concern about freezing my new heating system in my house. I have installed new radiators on the 2nd floor with a two pipe reverse-return system. The supply/return lines run up the exterior walls of my house. When it gets cold, I'm worried about freezing. The simple solution is to use anti-freeze, but that can be a hassle and added cost. I like the option of being able to drain the system, and not worry about antifreeze.

I have a 4 zone zone controller. It has a relay that turns on when a heat call is received from my thermostat. This relay powers my zone pump, and the boiler. I'd like to hack into the wire between the zone controller (relay) and the pump, and have a ucontroller trigger the pump to run intermittently when the heat is not being called.

I'm not sure how to do this though. I suppose I could use the relay in the zone controller to trigger an input on my ucontroller (via some AC to DC conversion board/voodoo), which then controls the logic to turn the pump on and off via another relay hooked up to the 120v AC power supply. Does this make sense? Is there something anyone knows of that I can just buy and wire in to do the same thing? I know electrical code comes into play with all this, so please don't comment about how I'm going to burn my house down. The intent is to stay withing the law and code.

-Luke

parsko

I've thought a bit more. Again, doing this legally is most important. I thought I could have the romex coming off the zone controller relay power to an 1 output outlet/plug. I could then plug a wallwart into that outlet, which has a 5V output. This output could then be routed into an input on my Prop.

Another Prop pin could be used as the output to the relay which switches the zone pump (which is 90W) on and off. So far, it all seems legal (to code). But, is there a "legal" board I can buy to switch the zone pump on and off with the Prop?

sam_sam_sam

Can you post a link to the company that make this (Heating System <<< ) and ( sub system >>> 4 Zone Controller and Thermostat.) that you have
I do have a background in computer control system for air conditioning

or Email me the manuals that you have for this system or a web link to them

sam1030@comcast.net

Maybe this can be done ? Just an :idea:

parsko

It's an ITT Zone-Trol, 4 zone controller:

http://www.bellgossett.com/productPages/Parts-Zone-Trol.asp

I've thought about how I can hack into the controller to do this, also. There doesn't seem to be a big zone controller hacker sub-culture out there that I can find...

-Parsko

KaosKidd

Did this about 9 or 10 years ago for my mom. What I did was take the "heat on" output from the thermostat and feed it into my controller (BS1). When the BS1 registered an input from the thermostat, it triggered and turned on the heater system (as if it came from the thermostat) via a relay. If no "heater on" call was made within 30 minutes of the last call, it would turn on the system for 10 minutes. If a "heat on" call was made during the 10 run, it would reset the timer, and switch over the the thermostat input. Total cost of the system was very cheap, about $20 bucks if I remember correctly.

The heating system used 12v ac supplied from the heater system, so I created a voltage regulator for 12dc and 5v dc for the stamp. I fed the 5v up into the thermostat's "heat circuit" (this model it simply switched it on and off, others may actually provide the voltage on the circuit), and fed the 5v into the BS1. I used an optical isolation IC (I forget the name of the chip) on the 5v output from the BS1 to control the 12vdc relay that switched the 12vac for the heater system. There is a summer / winter switch (I always wanted to put a temp probe to replace this or to control the whole circuit, but never had the time), that returns the whole circuit back to normal (so it never runs during the summer) I later found out the summer / winter switch was not needed.

It's been running now without any problems for as many years. The cool thing is it all fits into the wall right behind the thermostat. When I changed my moms thermostat for a programmable one, I didn't even have to change the circuit.

KK

parsko

Thanks KK. I had thought about doing something similar with the T-stat input. BUT, that would fire my boiler. I'm trying to just run the zone pump for a minute or so, so the water is not sitting static in the cold wall (with puffs of cold air blowing on it from leaks in my siding, which is a MAJOR project to do down the road, which I can't afford now). "moving water never freezes" sort of solution. That certainly is an option, though. AND, it does seem legal, too. I could use a very simple T-stat and hack into the thermistor wiring and replace that with the Prop as the logic...

sam_sam_sam

On This zone controller run on 24 volts and has a 24 volt input form your thermostat this will where you will be putting the output your Prop board relay output you will have to put a 2 poll relay wire as follows when the thermostat is call for heat or cool it works normal when you Prop board is do a command it switches OFF the thermostat output THIS A MUST IF YOUR thermostat
is a electronic one this electronic type thermostat will NOT STAND be back feed power when the thermostat is call for heat or cool then you can just put an Optic sensor on its input to your Prop board to let the Prop board that your thermostat has call for heat or cool to start your running timer and start one minute pump how ever you while the thermostat is idle just an :idea:
I hope this help very easy to do BTW

Here is a link to one Zone Controller http://www.bellgossett.com/literature/files/7104.pdf
Also see this link http://www.bellgossett.com/BG-Counterpoint.asp

There site is not user friendly

I would not bypass the controller for you system I would just put add on to what you already have just an :idea:

zone pump for a minute or so, so the water is not sitting static in the cold wall

Here is an :idea: upgrade to this type pump http://www.bellgossett.com/productPages/NRF-VS-Variable-Speed-Control.asp

stamptrol

You don't mention it specifically, but are there zone valves for each zone?

Typically, the thermostat actually opens the valve which then tells the controller to run the boiler and circulator.

The point being, just running the pump may not help you if there is a zone valve in the way.

The way I took care of this same problem was to slightly mechanically block open the zone valve on the zone that I was worried would freeze up. Then, when any other zone called for heat, a small amount of water would flow in the problem zone as well.

The nice thing about this was that everything still functioned normally if the problem loop thermostat called for heat.

Cheers,

parsko

I think I found my solution.

http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/manuals/MP-15_MP-15Q_MP-20_MP-20Q_manual.pdf

I think I've solved the problem of getting the voltage to legal logic levels in prior post. The link above, to the MP-15Q, is a UL certified box mount relay that can be controlled with a 10mA 8-15VDC power supply to turn it on. I would mount both set-ups in their respective boxes, with a 3rd box housing my Prop board. Done. Now, I can run that zone pump at whatever schedule I want. When the T-stat calls for heat, I override whatever is going on and turn on the zone pump.

Stamp, my zone pump has an isolation valve immediately following it. So, I can't do as you suggested, though also quite a good idea!

Seems I can get one of these MP-15Q's for $80. All the rest of it is more-or-less free, based on the leftovers from my rehab. I have a spare prop board I can dedicate to it. Nice thing is, I can even remotely update the code from my desk if I feel it's not quite right. I've also set my heat panel up so that I can add temperature sensors (simple GM style automotive cheapo's). I can use the prop to monitor those too.

-Parsko

parsko

A much cheaper solution, at around $12 in one place:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/datasheets/RIBU1C.pdf

This is working out nicely. I'll post an update if/once I get 'er done.

-Luke

sam_sam_sam

This will not work

A much cheaper solution, at around $12 in one place:

http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf...ets/RIBU1C.pdf

This with one set of contact you need two sets


Use this one http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf/datasheets/RIB2401D.pdf


RIB2401D This one will work

parsko

Ah, yes. Good point sam. I'd connect each leg of AC to each pole. That seems safer. Thanks for the suggestion. Still seems like I will have an up-to-code setup if I did all this. I'll have to ask my electrician if he agrees all this will work. My final electrical inspection is Tuesday. So, I'll wait to do this :smilewinkgrin:

-Luke

KaosKidd

Good Luck with the inspection!
Lord knows they can be a real PITA!

KK

parsko

Thanks, I'll need it! Plumbing and heating are the same day! :freaked:

parsko

Oh, I did some calcs. Antifreeze is about $75 for 5 gallons, or $15/gal. Just my radiators on the 2nd floor are 15 gallons. That doesn't include the heating panel, radiant on the 1st floor (which has about 1500 feet of 1/2 pex), the basement loops for the radiators, the 80ft of 1" pex supply/return lines to the boiler, and the boiler itself. That's all probably around 30 gallons of water!!! At $15/gal, that's at least $450!!!! AND, you need to change it (they say) once a year! All of this just to prevent freezing to my radiators! Hmmmmm, $50 and my time to set up a little controller for my radiator zone, well worth it!!

-Parsko

parsko

Hi again.

I've ordered two relays. One RIBU1C for the output from the zone controller to the prop, and one RIB2401D for the prop to the motor. I've attached a schematic of what I'm looking to do. I'm looking for any feedback about any errors I may have made.

I'm using two 4N25 optocouplers to give me additional isolation from the mains voltage and the 24VDC I plan on pumping through the house (which will also supply the prop). It may be overkill, as I could use a transistor to drive the relays, but I have the opto's, and I think this is a good application.

I missed a detail in the schematic. The zone controller outputs 120VAC (to supply the pump). I didn't label that, but it may be assumed since I specify romex...

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Parsko

sam_sam_sam

You could do it this way as long you make the ON command from the zone control


This would have to be the top command in your code routine and the running of the pump in between the ON command from the zone control
would be a secondary code routine

What you have in your drawing is right if you want the Prop Board to do all of the controlling of you system
How ever if you want it as an add on then all you would need is an optic sensor on the AC output to the pump
and what I had in my drawing

I hope you understand what I am talking about

sam_sam_sam

I would use Figure 2: Three Wire Thermostat for your setup
and would do it as an add on

sam_sam_sam wrote: »

On This zone controller run on 24 volts and has a 24 volt input form your thermostat this will be where you will be putting the output from your Prop board relay output you will have to put a 2 poll relay wire as follows when the thermostat is call for heat or cool it works normal when you Prop board is do a command it switches OFF the thermostat output THIS A MUST IF YOUR thermostat
is a electronic one this electronic type thermostat will NOT STAND be back feed power when the thermostat is call for heat or cool then you can just put an Optic sensor on its input to your Prop board to let the Prop board that your thermostat has call for heat or cool to start your running timer and start one minute pump how ever you while the thermostat is idle just an :idea:
I hope this help very easy to do BTW

Here is a link to one Zone Controller http://www.bellgossett.com/literature/files/7104.pdf
Also see this link http://www.bellgossett.com/BG-Counterpoint.asp

There site is not user friendly

I would not bypass the controller for you system I would just put add on to what you already have just an :idea:

zone pump for a minute or so, so the water is not sitting static in the cold wall

Here is an :idea: upgrade to this type pump http://www.bellgossett.com/productPages/NRF-VS-Variable-Speed-Control.asp

parsko

Hi Sam,

Thanks for the thoughts. Short answer is, YES, the prop will control this zone.

Not included is an outdoor air temp sensor, and a simple switch to turn the prop on and off (not really needed, and may be removed to prevent tampering).

This will sit on my heat panel permanently. The reason I want to go this route is so that I can customize the schedule as time passes and I learn more about my house and the heating "personality". Eventually, I won't change a thing. Heck, that may be sooner than I think!

The control logic will be simple. The prop will poll the pin that is receiving the signal from the zone controller. A HEAT CALL TRUMPS ALL! A.k.a. if there is a call for heat, the zone will be turned on. When there is no call for heat, the prop will poll the outdoor air temp sensor. If it's at or below freezing, then the prop will exercise the zone pump. My current thinking is a 10% duty cycle, every 10 minutes. In other words, run the pump for a minute during every 10 minute interval. I'll utilize the counter for that one.

I've read that the rule of thumb is that one has at least 10 minutes before a pipe freezes. I think that is worse case (I'm in Connecticut, Alaska or Maine may be different). I'm using PEX, which will give me more time. My pipes should be pretty safe against direct access to outdoor air. So, I probably have a MUCH longer time before it freezes. But, it doesn't hurt being safe.

Also, my pump is 90W. At 10% duty, it's going to cost me around 5cents to run every day! That's better than running antifreeze in my system!

Otherwise, you think my implementation of the components is correct? I'm not great when it comes to this sort of design. I think my resistor calcs makes sense. Would I need to worry about using larger than 1/4W resistors anywhere due to the 24V supply?

-Parsko

sam_sam_sam

I think that what you have will work but keep in mind do
ALOT OF TESTING do not assume that it will work right

Test you setup with the Idea that you want to see if you can make it fail

When I do a project when I think I have it setup right That when I start testing to see if I can get it to fail

You might be surprised what you find when you do some testing

One is that you did not account how much time your routine will take to run
Two is dose your routine acts fast enough to your input
Third dose your code routine run right if you loose power to the system and come right back on dose run right when this happen
Fourth dose your code run right if it sit ideal for a long time and then it come to life dose it come back to life or dose do nothing

parsko

Thanks for the advice! Yes, testing is always paramount!

My goal was to keep all of the code simple enough that the testing will be quick and easy. I really don't want to add too much to this, due to it living in the house even after I sell it (whenever that point comes). I'm also going to document the code and all of the logic, so that the next owner/operator can debug. It's really no different than the zone controller itself. That thing has a little microcontroller inside it that does a bunch of stuff. There is no documentation for that thing other than a simple installation manual!!! I'll leave much more than they offer for the next guy to use!

I'm not sure I care about how long the routine will take. There is a good chance I'll code it all is PASM, which will be WAY more than fast enough. I've even thought about running it without a crystal, in slow mode, since reaction time in the seconds range is enough.

If I loose power, the code should be fine. The timing is not too critical for the main loop of 10 minutes. I can set it up such that it runs the pump for a minute immediately after a loss of power.
You do does raise a good point (maybe not directly), though. In New England, we loose power frequently. But, I live in the city, so the length of time we loose power is rarely more than a few minutes. Not really long enough to freeze a pipe. If we were to loose power for a long period of time, during the dead of winter, I may have isssues. But, in that circumstance, I can just drain the heating system. Again, I'm dealing with PEX tubing. It's more resistant to bursting than copper is. Another solution would be shut that zone off and relieve the pressure at one of the radiators. This would allow for the water to expand, which will also aid in the prevention of burst pipes.

Regarding idle code. It'll never be idle. The prop will always be running, even in the summer. (It'll sip mA running on the slow clock, so that won't cost me much per month) I'll have it check the temp frequently. Probably at the same 10 minute interval. Was this what you were talking about regarding it being idle?

sam_sam_sam

parsko wrote: »

Thanks for the advice! Yes, testing is always paramount!

My goal was to keep all of the code simple enough that the testing will be quick and easy. I really don't want to add too much to this, due to it living in the house even after I sell it (whenever that point comes). I'm also going to document the code and all of the logic, so that the next owner/operator can debug. It's really no different than the zone controller itself. That thing has a little microcontroller inside it that does a bunch of stuff. There is no documentation for that thing other than a simple installation manual!!! I'll leave much more than they offer for the next guy to use!

I'm not sure I care about how long the routine will take. There is a good chance I'll code it all is PASM, which will be WAY more than fast enough. I would still test for this condition any way just to know that it dose not matter and your code dose not hang up some where

In a lot code routine I put an LED and set it up so that it is OFF in the being of the routine that is the keeping time routine and turn ON at the end of the running code routine so all you need to is look at the LED and you know the Controller is running

example for an BS2

DO
LOW LED
'your timing routine
HIGH LED
LOOP

I had a project once that when I was writing the test code I did the test in second and not in minutes and there was a bug in the code that I did not see at first

I've even thought about running it without a crystal, in slow mode, since reaction time in the seconds range is enough.

If I loose power, the code should be fine. The timing is not too critical for the main loop of 10 minutes. I can set it up such that it runs the pump for a minute immediately after a loss of power.
You do does raise a good point (maybe not directly), though. In New England, we loose power frequently.

I hope it not like is here where I live every once in a while we loose power and we do it goes OFF right back ON right back OFF then it might stay ON or it might just stay OFF for while

If you ever had this happen before i would this test also

One test that I would is to power it ON ,OFF, ON ,OFF then back ON
and see if it work all right after you do this

When I tested for this in one case I had to use a ONE FARD cap so it would not lock up

But, I live in the city, so the length of time we loose power is rarely more than a few minutes.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes that is one of the thing and maybe the most important thing and it not a bad thing to have the pump run for a minute on power up
_______________________________________________________________
Regarding idle code. It'll never be idle. The prop will always be running, even in the summer. (It'll sip mA running on the slow clock, so that won't cost me much per month) I'll have it check the temp frequently. Probably at the same 10 minute interval. Was this what you were talking about regarding it being idle?

sam_sam_sam

As you can see that I know which mode it is summer or winter by how and which Leds are and which one is blinking and how fast or slow it is blinking

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led PIN 2 'To LED anode
chg PIN 1 'To LED cathode
Summer PIN 11 'Summer Routine LED Light
chg_S PIN 9 'Input = Pin 9
PumpLedOn PIN 15 'Pump ON RED Led
relay PIN 14 'Pool Pump Relay

Pick_ONE:
DO
DEBUG CLS
IF IN10 = 0 THEN
GOSUB Summer_Run
ELSE
GOSUB Winter_Run
ENDIF
LOOP
' " Summer Routine = 3 Hours "
' " Pump Running Hours = 4 "
' " Day Light Hours = 12 "
Summer_Run:
cntr = 00
HIGH Summer 'Summer LED Light
GOSUB Re_Set_Time

DO
DEBUG CR, CR,"Summer Run" 'This Starts the Pump
GOSUB CDT_Start
IF secs > $11 THEN
TOGGLE PumpLedOn
PAUSE 100
TOGGLE PumpLedOn
ENDIF

GOSUB Get_Time
DEBUG HOME, HEX2 hrs, ":", HEX2 mins, ":", HEX2 secs
IF hrs = $01 AND mins = $00 AND secs = $00 THEN
DEBUG CR, CR, "1:00:00 Elapsed"
GOSUB Summer_OFF
ENDIF

LOOP

Summer_OFF:
cntr = 00
LOW Summer
GOSUB relay_OFF 'This turn OFF the Pump
GOSUB Re_Set_Time
'
DO
cntr = cntr + 1 * Chg_S ' This line is to check if state
IF (cntr = 10 ) THEN GOSUB Pool_Cleaning ' Of Input 12 = (1) for 10....for Pool cleaning
LOW PumpLedOn
PAUSE 400

HIGH PumpLedOn
DEBUG CR, CR, "2:00:00 Elapsed"
GOSUB Get_Time
'DEBUG HOME, HEX2 hrs,":", HEX2 mins, ":", HEX2 secs ' This ENDS the OFF Timer
IF hrs = $02 AND mins = $00 AND secs = $00 THEN
GOSUB LED_OFF
GOSUB Look
ENDIF
LOOP

Winter_Run: ' Day Light = 10 Hours
cntr = 00
GOSUB Re_Set_Time

DO
DEBUG CR, CR,"Winter Run" 'This Starts the Pump
GOSUB CDT_Start
IF secs > $11 THEN
LOW Summer
HIGH PumpLedOn
PAUSE 100
LOW PumpLedOn
HIGH Summer
PAUSE 200
ENDIF
GOSUB Get_Time
DEBUG HOME, HEX2 hrs, ":", HEX2 mins, ":", HEX2 secs
IF hrs = $00 AND mins = $30 AND secs = $00 THEN
DEBUG CR, CR, "00:30:00 Elapsed"
LOW Summer
GOSUB Winter_OFF
ENDIF
LOOP
Winter_OFF:
GOSUB relay_OFF 'This turn OFF the Pump
GOSUB Re_Set_Time

DO
cntr = cntr + 1 * Chg_S ' This line is to check if state
IF (cntr = 10 ) THEN GOSUB Pool_Cleaning ' Of Input 9 = (1) for 10....for Pool cleaning
LOW PumpLedOn
PAUSE 500
HIGH PumpLedOn

DEBUG CR, CR, "1:30:00 Elapsed"
GOSUB Get_Time
DEBUG HOME, HEX2 hrs,":", HEX2 mins, ":", HEX2 secs ' This ENDS the OFF Timer
IF hrs = $01 AND mins = $30 AND secs = $00 THEN

PAUSE 100
GOSUB LED_OFF
GOSUB Look
ENDIF
LOOP
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