Cool consumer devices that should have been built with a Propeller

Hanno

Hi!
Check out this cool device:
www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/07/humane-wikipedia-reader
Should have been built with a Propeller. So far, it's just an SD card reader, a video-out, and has keyboard input.
How can we improve on it?
Hanno
ps (I edited title of post- from "20 wikipedia reader for your tv- wish I'd thought of it!"- there are many consumer items like this one that could have been done with the Propeller, why didn't they?)

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

Post Edited (Hanno) : 7/29/2010 8:53:28 PM GMT

Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)

Propeller WikiBrowser
posted May 2nd 2009 8:00am by Caleb Kraft
filed under: misc hacks, pcs hacks




hackaday.com/2009/05/02/wikibrowser/

Hanno

Thanks Bob- so technically it has been done with the Propeller, but someone else is going to market with 2 8bit processors...
This www.chumby.com/pages/chumby_one probably requires a bit more power than a Propeller- but not much!
Would be great to see something in the consumer world built with a Propeller!
Hanno

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

soshimo

Hanno said...
Thanks Bob- so technically it has been done with the Propeller, but someone else is going to market with 2 8bit processors...
This www.chumby.com/pages/chumby_one probably requires a bit more power than a Propeller- but not much!
Would be great to see something in the consumer world built with a Propeller!
Hanno

350 MHz ARM9-based Freescale i.MX21 controller
64 MB of SDRAM
64 MB of NAND flash ROM
320

Hanno

The Propeller is 8* 20MIPS=160MIPS, so no- in terms of raw performance the Propeller is not WAY underpowered- what's a factor of 2 between friends? Access to lots of high-speed memory is another story- but for many features you don't need it.

Here's the feature list of the chumby:
it's an internet alarm clock
Pandora Radio internet music service
iheartradio, SHOUTcast Radio, tens of thousands of internet radio stations with digital clarity
Podcasts including NY Times, CBS and Mediafly
Programmable alarms
Fall asleep to music or nature sounds
Music from iPod and memory sticks
FM radio


So, it's using all this horsepower to play streaming music! The recent Propeller contest was won by streaming mp3- so this is definitely doable...
Hanno

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

waltc

The Prop has little memory unless you trick it out and get hammered performance wise when you do. This is why you don't see people here comparing it to 100 Mhz ARM's, Coldfires or PowerPC's or see the Prop emulating a Amiga.

Also it's evident that the Chumby has a nice GUI with some form of internet browsing since it can access Facebook and Youtube. So far I haven't seen anything like that with the Prop.

But a clone of a Apple II or the $20 Wikipedia Reader is quite doable.

localroger

Add an ethernet chip and in addition to reading the offline Wiki if you have internet access you could read the ONLINE wiki too.

soshimo

Hanno said...
The Propeller is 8* 20MIPS=160MIPS, so no- in terms of raw performance the Propeller is not WAY underpowered- what's a factor of 2 between friends? Access to lots of high-speed memory is another story- but for many features you don't need it.

Here's the feature list of the chumby:
it's an internet alarm clock
Pandora Radio internet music service
iheartradio, SHOUTcast Radio, tens of thousands of internet radio stations with digital clarity
Podcasts including NY Times, CBS and Mediafly
Programmable alarms
Fall asleep to music or nature sounds
Music from iPod and memory sticks
FM radio


So, it's using all this horsepower to play streaming music! The recent Propeller contest was won by streaming mp3- so this is definitely doable...
Hanno

Actually over 2 1/2 times, because it's 1.2DMIPS / Mhz, so truly it's 420MIPS on the ARM. Trust me, I love my prop, but it's no ARM. Now, when Qualcomm decides to make the next msm chipset using the prop, then you can say the prop can complete [noparse]:)[/noparse].

Don't forget about driving the UI as well - there are a lot of apps with that chumby and they all look like gui apps.

Post Edited (soshimo) : 7/30/2010 3:12:26 AM GMT

Hanno

Has software gotten so bad that we need a 160mips Propeller to build a clone of a <1mips Apple from 30 years ago?
Do you really need 420mips and megabytes of ram for a glorified alarm clock that plays music?
I don't think so!
Look at all the cool things developed on this board- people have developed all the components, they just need to put together by someone.
Hanno

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

heater

The Humane PC is an awesome idea.

For the first time in my life last week I got the ability read ebooks, wikipedia and surf the net, on a mobile device. It happens to have S video out for comfortable reading on TV. It will end up costing me over 400 Euro. It's a Samsung Galaxy S.

To be able to give someone the chance to read all of wikkipedia for 20 dollars with no internet is an audacious plan.

They have done it with three AVR chips, one for video, one for USB, and one to do the book reading. See technical description here: humaneinfo.com/pc.html

On first sight it looks as if the Prop could do that.

Given the ongoing debates about promoting the Propeller as a solution in this arena or that I'd like to see a discussion here about if the Prop could really do what Humane PC does and could it do it at the price they want.

By the way, can we drop this idea that the Prop is a 160MIPs chip. It is not.

What I mean is that for any programs larger than those that fit in COG you have to get your code from HUB. That is you need LMM or overlays or some such mechanism. This brings your achievable MIPS down by a factor 4 or so. Then if you have more data than fits in COG you are stuffed by HUBOPs.

The raw 20 MIPS per COG is only realized in special cases that fit in COG.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Leon

With ARM chips from NXP costing as little as 65c, using one of those for a product like that makes a lot more sense.

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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM

Cluso99

Great find Hanno. And yes, the prop could be built for $20 in those volumes provided retailers didn't want the normal huge margins. The advantage of the prop would be a 2 chip solution (prop + eeprom) with inbuilt TV (or S-Video), keyboard and SD/microSD (resistors and connectors only). A better solution would also have a VGA output too which would add <$1. Most of the software is already available as objects. With Micah's code we can even connect to the PC via USB using just resistors and connector (well actually use the existing USB power connector). In fact this could all fit into a 40x50x20mm (1.8x1.8x0.8") box.

Is the project worth doing???

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz

heater

Cluso, is there actually enough memory to include:

TV text + VT52 style terminal emulation,
Keyboard driver,
SD driver + file system,
Whatever the wiki read/display program takes.

Micah's USB code is for HOST mode. To connect to the PC you need USB device mode which BradC has already done for a USB/serial device. Then you need software to handle the USB "mass storage" device.

All sounds a bit marginal to me.

Is it worth doing?

Only if you are driven to provide computers and more importantly the data that comes with the computers to a billion people or so in the world who have no such opportunity yet.

Still if there were a 10c profit in each one that's a lot of cents.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

SciNemo

Glad that my little wikibrowser project hasn't been forgotten [noparse]:)[/noparse]

I've still got the code if anyone wanted to pursue it further, I never included USB support but it shouldn't be difficult to add. HTML parsing and links also need work in my code. Seems like a simple weekend project to me.

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Not the fish.
www.hackniac.com

potatohead

Interesting little reader idea. I find it interesting that three devices were used, like we are regularly combining propellers.

The Prop could do color. The Prop could do higher resolution text. Games and other things could be put onto the device as well.

I think it would be interesting to make another device that has a keyboard and that can be used to develop on. Somebody with two of them actually does get a computer, given they can scrounge up some connecting bits, or maybe just a keyboard. If the developer ones get distributed, even 100, or 1000 to 1, good things might happen, and we've got all the bits needed for that to happen. Not optimal, like it is with a PC, but enough that if that's all somebody had, they could do a lot of interesting things.

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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Wondering how to set tile colors in the graphics_demo.spin?
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!

Hanno

Great job on blazing the way SciNemo!
A couple years ago people would pay $2000 for a single pc for their house to do their "computing".
Now, people spend a similar amount on multiple devices with different capabilities and purposes:
- $500 pc (on desk)
- $500 laptop (in backback)
- $500 iphone (in pocket)
- $200 netbook (on coffee table)
- $150 e-ink reader (on bedside table)
- $150 nintendo wii (plugged into tv)

Even I haven't had enough Propeller-kool-aid to recommend that people replace their main pc- or anything that really requires lots of memory/processing power with a Propeller. Quite the contrary- when people like the good doctor talked about how great the Propeller was for AI- I was very critical and volunteered to extend my diet to electronic devices... I'm also not a fan of building a supercomputer out of Propellers. If you want cheap computing power look at fpga's or cuda...

However- I do think that the Propeller can do more than blink LED's- especially given all the objects already developed by other people and available under MIT license. Connectivity to sensors/actuators, sound, ethernet, usb, peripherals- and yes, even graphics- people keep talking about it as being one of the strengths of the Propeller. I've built a frame grabber, a simple vision engine, and even a high-speed lsa, which does achieve the full 80mips possible for 4 cogs- at least for short periods of time- but during those times, it's capturing 32bit*80msps=2.4gigabit/second!

So- while the hardware performance has sadly stayed the same since it was released a LONG time ago (imagine if Intel sold the same processor- at the same speed for 6 years!), the objects and tools have greatly multiplied. I'll continue my work on my tools: ViewPort, PropScope and 12blocks. With TBot we're also hoping to push the boundaries of educational robots... I'm hoping other entrepreneurs will recognize the potential of the Propeller's hardware coupled with the contributions of this community and surprise us with a blockbuster consumer device- especially if it brings information or education to people that didn't previously have it.
Hanno

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

markaeric

I think the idea of an extremely cheap PC for developing countries is a very interesting one. With that in mind, what capabilities would such a device need to have? Since the internet has brought the world together in so many ways, I find that networking related functionality is at the top of the list. Here are the things that come to mind first:


offline/online wiki access is pretty cool
IRC client/server
VOIP if possible
Simple text only web browser
pop3/imap server/client
internet radio


Hardware wise, it would be something like

2 SD readers (to be able to easily copy files/programs from someone else SD card )
composite video output (the majority of composite video standards would have to be supported)
keyboard/mouse ports
probably an ethernet chip
audio in/out
expansion port with all remaining prop pins

Obviously, everything related to it should be open source. Board design should be through hole construction (any DIP ethernet chips?), to allow low cost manufacturing techniques. Kits and pre-built units should be available.

The eeprom should not be writable (at least not without a jumper) and contain a basic graphical file manager and program launcher. I'd say dev tools would be nice, but those could always be their own program.

What's missing? Lets hear it!

Cluso99

heater: Since there is an SD card, most of the hub can remain available and when the cogs are no longer required for the purpose they can be reloaded. Since what this is trying to achieve is actually quite simple I don't think resources will really be an issue. Maybe a little slower than it could be done, but this is for cheapness and simplicity.

BTW SMT is way cheaper for volume.

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz

Hanno

I like where this is going- good thoughts Cluso, and great list Markaeric! I don't know much about third world infrastructure- but I doubt they have ethernet plugs. Cell phones however are everywhere. So, how about using them for data- not 24/7, but to update the local data periodically?

I love the idea of a device that displays information on a tv AND updates itself via downloads via a cell phone that it plugs into whenever you need an update. It would dial into a server to update the wiki, weather, crop prices and twitter? Yes, everything open-source and focus on cheap <$20 and simple.
Hanno

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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer

Kevin Wood

Hanno said...
Yes, everything open-source and focus on cheap <$20 and simple.

Except that not everything with the Propeller is open-source.

Graham Stabler

I tend to agree with Leon, you can certainly do what this guy is doing on a propeller but I don't think either solution makes that much sense for a product. You could probably get it to do much more for the same money using other solutions.

On the subject of showing off the propeller to a wider audience I think it is done best when interfacing with the real world in real time, that is where it shines. Using it like a little computer it interesting, fun etc but is not the application it really works best in to my mind.

For example I can drive stepper motors with Mhz pulse rates using the propeller with trapezoidal motion profiles, I am pretty sure with some work that could be turned into a 6-axis motion controller with cogs to spare for some inverse kinematics. This is a pretty neat reconfigurable motion controller in a single chip not a massive box costing the earth.

The quadcopter project that was floating around is another excellent example, lots of disparate data coming in that needs to be dealt with all of the time in real time with appropriate outputs produced and perhaps and some processing required in between.

I think the reader idea is awesome but I'm not sure it is a killer propeller app even if we could out do these efforts hands down.

Graham