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Easy, not necessarily cheap, PCB fabrication for beginners — Parallax Forums

Easy, not necessarily cheap, PCB fabrication for beginners

RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
edited 2010-10-01 02:40 in General Discussion
Greetings, I have never tried a "PCB fab house" yet and i want to give it a go, only thing is, i haven't a clue where to start. I have looked around a little, but i haven't done a great deal of searching. I just need a couple of simple boards to test out.·2 layer is fine and it will be mostly thru-hole components. And right now i am not to concerned about cost.·I want to eventually start my own small·electronics·business and i know that good pcbs/ knowledge·are crucial. So·to the point.·From your collective experience, what is the best( And by best i mean ease of use, for now) PCB manufacturer for short runs?

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Comments

  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2010-07-29 04:01
    At least a few of us here use Advanced Circuits. Their prices are good, quality is top notch and they are right here in the U.S..

    Rich H

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    The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2010-07-29 04:15
    I've used ExpressPCB a number of times and have been very satisfied with the results. www.expresspcb.com/
    They provide free layout software and, though I had never made a pcb in my life, I was able to get up and running within a few hours. I've never tried anything else, so I can't compare, but if you consider that you don't really have to invest any money in the software, then it's a great way to get a feel for the whole concept of making pcbs.

    Just my 0.0002 cents worth.

    smile.gif
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-07-29 04:25
    Advanced Circuits also offers free layout software.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2010-07-29 05:03
    And they have a free online error checking system called FreeDFM.

    DipTrace has a free version of their PCB Layout software, I have found it very easy to use. Nick from Gadget Gangster has made a series of tutorials for it.

    Rich H

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    The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-07-30 03:18
    I've been using OurPCB www.ourpcb.com/ for a number of years now. I'd send off an order maybe every couple of months.

    There are a few steps from design to PCB so I wrote it up a few years back www.instructables.com/id/Professional-PCBs-almost-cheaper-than-making-them-/

    (I've improved my board design skills a bit since then - eg thin tracks for data, fat tracks for power, moving device labels around on the board so they don't overlay each other).

    Design a schematic. Design the board. Turn it into a Gerber (I've got quicker at that - I can make a gerber/drill file in less than 30 seconds now). Send an email to OurPCB with a zip attached. Quote comes back about 6 hours later. Send money with Paypal. Receive boards about 10 days later.

    Sometimes I get an email back with a question "did you really want to put these two components on top of each other?" and I correct my silly mistake and send a new zip.

    It is all pretty easy. So easy in fact that I am very reluctant to do point to point wiring nowadays.

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2010-07-30 10:12
    Take a look in Nuts & Volts for a lot of them.

    I've used Eagle Cad and a company in mainland China that accepts payment by USA PayPal and delivers in a few weeks. I had shopped a lot of places before doing so - Sparkfun and Futurelec seemed to come closest in price.

    The two weeks extended to four as we had some communications problems, but the people were very careful to deliver good product. Delays were because we both didn't understand the files I gave them, but Eagle Cad gave us the answers.

    Of course if you want to do this all at home, Eagle Cad will print transparencies on an HP Inkget (other brands don't work as the ink beads up). And then photo expose the board, remove the excess, and etch with ferric chloride. That inkjet transparency doesn't completely dry, so be sure to not smear the ink when handling.

    That still leaves you to find your prefect way to drill holes. And you likely have made a rather limited one-sided board. I cut the board down to size with a hack saw (nice fine teeth) and drill all the holes by hand with a small drill held in a pin vise (a hand tool made for such purposes). Usually, I drill holes while having my morning latte at Starbucks and reading the newspaper. It goes rather quick and I don't have all the control problems of power drills. (bit breakage, skidding across the board, and so on).

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    Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?

    aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2010-07-30 11:48
    I've really got to learn how to make PCB's. My last point to point wiring project was an exercise in frustration. In theory it isn't hard, but when you bridge two pins and have so many wires to deal with, desoldering is really hard.

    I would only be producing one offs and would likely use the laser printer toner transfer technique. Does the layout software share a common format, or are you locked into one? I've heard people mention Gerber files which sound like a common PCB format, but I've seen design files specify particular programs. So that sounds like you are locked in.
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2010-07-30 11:57
    I think you would have better luck using the photo process. There is a bit of a learning curve, but you don't have to fight getting the toner off the paper. Double sided boards can be done much easier using the photo process.

    All reputable software will export a gerber.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-07-30 20:25
    Join the Homebrew PCB Yahoo group.

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    Leon Heller
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
  • max72max72 Posts: 1,155
    edited 2010-08-02 11:54
    I'm happy with Olimex. Living in Europe US manufacturers are out of range.
    Olimex offers 2 board size options, 1 or 2 layers.
    On the other hand they depanelize for free.

    Massimo
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-08-02 14:15
    I've used Olimex a couple of times, but they only do low-spec boards. I prefer PCB Pool and PCB Train (Newbury Electronics).

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    Leon Heller
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2010-08-02 21:55
    I've discovered the wonderful world of wire-wrapping and find it works well for me in conjunction with Prop and SX proto boards, though I would like to eventually try making a real PCB at some point in the future, I've been intimidated about doing in though!

    Also, if you go with advanced circuits, put in referral for Phil or W9GFO so they can get the $25 outback restaurant gift certificate!

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    Tom Talbot
    New Market, MD, USA
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-08-03 08:59
    I last used wire-wrap 25 years ago to make a prototype board using the Inmos transputer, with 1 Mbyte of DRAM.

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    Leon Heller
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2010-08-03 16:28
    I used to use ExpressPCB, but it quickly became too limiting as I expanding my horizons.
    Now I use Sunstone Circuits . They have good pricing for mass production and lots of options, but lately I have been using them for single board or up to 10 board runs, they are great because you can get small single-run circuit boards that are custom shaped, masked, and silked which ExpressPCB does not do for single boards. And it is about the same price, if not a little cheaper. They have a CAD program to work with their system (called PCBExpress -- geez, people need to get creative), but they accept gerber files from any software.

    Don't get sucked in to ExpressPCB, use PCBExpress, or DipTrace or Eagle!

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    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
  • SeariderSearider Posts: 290
    edited 2010-08-03 16:54
    I use DipTrace for Schematic and PCB layout and then PCBCART in China to produce boards.
    high quality boards, no complaints.
    Online quotes
    Email the Gerber and drill plot file
    Pay with Paypal.
    Wait 10 days.
    Affordable and many options on board size, thickness, routing, pannelization etc ...

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    Searider
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-03 17:49
    I think the Diptrace sounds promising. It sounds like a lot of work to figure it all out. I have almost never even used a PCB layout program. I will try to get around to messing with Diptrace sometime(When i am not at work). It will just take time to learn, but i am not gonna give up....Any tutorials/ pointers would be nice..Thanks for all the suggestions

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    Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-03 18:00
    I might also try ExpressPBC. They are very professional looking and seem to be easy to learn. One quick question. If you make a schematic, do you still have to lay out the board? Or does it do it for you?

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    Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2010-08-03 18:00
    Ravenkallen said...
    I think the Diptrace sounds promising. It sounds like a lot of work to figure it all out. I have almost never even used a PCB layout program. I will try to get around to messing with Diptrace sometime(When i am not at work). It will just take time to learn, but i am not gonna give up....Any tutorials/ pointers would be nice..Thanks for all the suggestions

    Their website has some video tutorials (no audio). Those got me started, it is quite easy to learn compared to other programs (like Eagle), but not to say it is easy. If you have never used and type of CAD before, that alone is a big learning curve, but the actual program is fairly easy.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2010-08-03 18:01
    Ravenkallen said...
    I might also try ExpressPBC. They are very professional looking and seem to be easy to learn. One quick question. If you make a schematic, do you still have to lay out the board? Or does it do it for you?
    ExpressPCB does absolutely nothing automatically. But DipTrace does!

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-03 18:30
    Oh, so what is the point of making a schematic beforehand? So diptrace does though. SO you could just make a schematic and press a button(or something) and it will turn into a ready to make PCB file?

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    Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2010-08-03 18:52
    ExpressPCB schematic will help you a little. It will show you in the layout where traces are terminating, but there is no error checks or anything.

    DipTrace on the other hand could give you a completed board with only a few clicks, but that is assuming you don't care about interference issues or other potential electrical issues. Manual part placement wikl look cleaner usually and take up less space. The auto routing works pretty good, just route important low impedance traces first. And there is all the error checking you will even need in DipTrace.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-03 19:03
    But for a beginner, it should be suitable enough for basic use?

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    Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2010-08-03 19:32
    There is a learning curve for every CAD system in existence. Yes, DipTrace is 20% more complicated to learn because of the library system, but it does 100% more things and will vastly reduce your work load, especially once you get into more complicated boards. Plus you aren't tied to any one fabrication house. DipTrace will let you shop around for better prices than ExpressPCB can give you, at higher quality too. After you make a board or two, you will have save about as much time as you took to learn the software. Again for simple boards, ExpressPCB will work fine, but if there are more than, say, 20 components the nets get so complicated you need to stop worrying about them and let a computer do what it is good at. Once your at 100+ components it would be almost impossible to make a board without any mistakes on ExpressPCB.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

    Some of my objects:
    MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
    Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
    String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
    Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-05 02:13
    Mhh, i guess i will just play around with it until i figure it out. That's what i did with electronics.... Good old trial and error

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
  • amitbahlamitbahl Posts: 1
    edited 2010-10-01 02:40
    Check http://www.protoexpress.com/betterdfm/index.jsp for free DFM.
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