SparkFun endorsing piracy?
W9GFO
Posts: 4,010
www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9672#
So now SparkFun is selling Hakko 936 imitations and they are even putting their logo on it - they think that it is perfectly okay to profit from selling this copy.
Many of you enjoy purchasing cheap stuff from China. For many things there simply is no other option.
There are however many items that are available from other places. This iron is a good example. Hakko created this iron and sells it at a reasonable price. Some Chinese company has duplicated it and sells it for much less. There can be no doubt that they are taking business away from Hakko and there will be many people buying this copy without realizing that it is a copy.
So many people only care that they can save a few dollars and it is of no concern to them where the money goes, or wether or not the right people are being paid for their work.
Two requests;
Parallax, please don't go down that road. I believe SparkFun is setting a bad example to so many young people who will one day be making similar business decisions.
Everyone else, consider where your money is going, who is profiting and the message you are sending when you make a purchase. Buying cheap usually costs more in the long run. Buy cheap, buy often. Buy quality, buy once.
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
So now SparkFun is selling Hakko 936 imitations and they are even putting their logo on it - they think that it is perfectly okay to profit from selling this copy.
Many of you enjoy purchasing cheap stuff from China. For many things there simply is no other option.
There are however many items that are available from other places. This iron is a good example. Hakko created this iron and sells it at a reasonable price. Some Chinese company has duplicated it and sells it for much less. There can be no doubt that they are taking business away from Hakko and there will be many people buying this copy without realizing that it is a copy.
So many people only care that they can save a few dollars and it is of no concern to them where the money goes, or wether or not the right people are being paid for their work.
Two requests;
Parallax, please don't go down that road. I believe SparkFun is setting a bad example to so many young people who will one day be making similar business decisions.
Everyone else, consider where your money is going, who is profiting and the message you are sending when you make a purchase. Buying cheap usually costs more in the long run. Buy cheap, buy often. Buy quality, buy once.
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
Comments
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
He was amused because it came with a "Genuine Hakko" holographic sticker. His true original Hakko never had such a sticker.
It's called capitalist exploitation of communist labor, and it's the standard paradigm for businesses trying to get - or remain - profitable all over the world. And if that little fact of life gives you a headache, well then, here, have some aspirin.... or.... oops, looks like the entire world's supply of aspirin will soon be made only in China.
www.nytimes.com/2008/11/02/magazine/02fda-t.html
But you know China is getting too uppity. Their wages have soared beyond those that Wall Street and other global investors can stomach anymore, so the new frontier looks like Bangladesh.
www.nytimes.com/2010/07/17/business/global/17textile.html
And soon, man, you're gonna be either on the bus or off the bus. Which is it gonna be?
In a way, it bothers me to see Sparkfun co-branding this type of product as I really admire there market strategy in several ways. Hopefully they don't go overboard with this type of co-branding.
As for Parallax, they have already been pushing the Made in USA ideal on as many products as they can. Some items must be imported for various reasons, but the mainstream desire seems to be that they keep as many products stateside as possible.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger
And more regrettably, many Asian enterprises think that such is a road to prosperity, though inferior knock offs never seem to last as long or work quite right. Here in Taiwan, it has gotten much better over the years. But knock off clothing is ubiquious through out the region. Brand names find it very difficult to police such diverse markets. But it is quite obvious that something is a knock off when the weight of the fabric is so much lighter.
On the other hand, I suspect that Parallax really feels that customers will only buy genuine Parallax products if it respects others that are equally committed to excellence and their own product identity. I'm not sure what Sparkfun is thinking.
There is a whole global culture out there that apes innovation - an inferior mindset. Italy seems to be a gateway to many of knock off purses and fashion wear that go west from Asia. It doesn't surprise me that they have a big problem with organized crime as well. Softer crimes open the door to having to tolerate more serious crime.
The oddest thing is that I've observed is that Asians actually prefer all the woes of an illegal copy of Windows XP (and beyond) to adapting to a free copy of Ubuntu Linux. I can't easily buy a computer locally that is bundled with genuine Windows 7 in English (I do have Vista Home legally licensed in Chinese only), so rather than pay a huge premium for Windows 7 Ultimate, I have switched over to Linux for most of my needs. Excellence doesn't always have to be expensive.
It all reminds me of the old adage that 'the only person you are cheating is yourself.'
Of course, ask Sparkfun about their warrenty and return policy on this branded soldering station.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 7/19/2010 8:43:28 AM GMT
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www.mercedes.com.my
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Coca Cola has a trademark on the bottle's shape. Hubcaps, doorhandles, and much more on autos are trademarked. If the chassis is claimed to be trademarked and Sparkfun has naively placed its logo on top of it, some lawyer is going to cash in. It is one thing to sell a knock off, but a whole different thing to put your own brand identity on it. Just check the U.S. trademark registry and you will find all sorts of oddities - like those little Fender Reverb Amp knobs (trademarked too.)
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Right, they knowingly apply their logo to an item which is a direct copy of a Hakko. I would consider that an endorsement of the practice of copying. The Chinese company that makes the Hakko clone even uses the same model numbers so as to make it look as much like a Hakko as possible.
I'm just surprised they didn't call it a "Hacko".
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
That is easily fixed: just add Lead to the fabric.
Post Edited (ElectricAye) : 7/19/2010 3:18:02 PM GMT
PJ Allen is referring to Chip's ISEPIC, a disk duplication device for C-64 computers. This product was designed and created in 1985 under the company name Innovative Software Engineering , before Parallax existed. It was sold by Starpoint Software.
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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
@W9GFO: point taken and I agree that we shall not devalue the core of our business.
@WBA Consulting: Hakko will probably not be worried if their primary market is selling to the USA. Mainstream electronic retailers in the USA (RadioShack, Fry's, etc.) are not likely to engage in selling a copy (I make no judgment about the subject being a copy, BTW) of a popular product.
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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
Companies protect themselves by introducing new "design" features to set themselves apart, putting them back under patent protection. If they don't, this coping is what they risk.
Bill
(At least in my experience)
Gramps brought me back a "Fluke" duplicate a few years ago on one of his trips to the states.
He told me straight away that it was a copy, but an extremely good looking one.
Looking up the actual unit on the Internet, it was perfect all except the name itself.
It died a month later.. (No real surprise) and it laid around on my workbench for a couple years until
I decided to open the unit up and see if there was anything obvious that I could deal with. What a MESS!
The thing was so badly soldered and assembled that I'm surprised it lasted a month! Looked like it
was assembled by a 5 year old! (Probably not far off!)
You get what you pay for.. It was true then... It's true now...
Hey! I loved my ISEPIC cart! It was perfect for making uhem "backup" copies of my original C64 games!
The cart bypassed all of that copy protection/drive head knocking stuff that would cause the 1541 to go out of alignment.
OBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
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John
Actually, I don't think you can.
How do we decide the boundary? How do we decide objectively instead of subjectively? How much does it have to look like a Hakko to become illegal?
That's why in most SE Asian countries, as long you don't "pass off" an imitation as the real thing, the authorities will not take action.
But if you do pass off an imitation as the real thing, the registered Trade Mark holder can ask the authorities to raid and seize the goods.
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www.mercedes.com.my
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 7/20/2010 10:28:42 AM GMT
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Patent - very expensive, tens of thousands of dollars
Trademark - generally less than $1000USD
Copyright - generally less than $25USD
This is merely your right to publicly register your claim of ownership. Defending your claim is not the governments job. So, much is dependent on how Hakko defends its trademark. But the enclosure - if unique to their products - can be trademarked in and of itself. It becomes risky to put one's company logo on it. Sadly, the knock off product may be actually going out the back door of the same jobber that makes the real thing.
Personally, I am not into expensive solder stations. Weller made good products when I was a kid, but since then I seem to do quite well with a generic item and a light dimmer for heat control. Made in China isn't a barrier either.
The real dilemma is that defending your rights, even with an excellent claim, can get awfully expensive and may not be worthwhile. But for the seller if that someone starts branding knock-offs and retails them under their own brands at a steep cut in price, it gets harder and harder for them to buy branded products that their customers want. So it becomes a slippery slope unless one really plans to produce on an innovative and high quality basis (innovate or duplicate?).
Sure there are gray areas that play out competitively. IBM versus M$ versus Apple and so on. But is it really worth the risk to blatantly take on a branded product in the U.S. market? I doubt it.
Asia plays by its own rules and generally ends up with second-rate merchandise because of it. I'd rather have a good Seiko than a fake Rolex for durability, but a fake Gucci does impress the girls as much as a real one.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 7/20/2010 3:16:50 PM GMT
Funny, I'm using one of those lenses. I have a Leica 50/2.0, I really prefer the slightly less sharp images I get from the Canon 50/1.4 thread-mount.
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Reverse engineering is everywhere and on going; and no place more prevalent that in military items when a country wants to keep up with an arms race or such.
As I said in my first post, when you are successful everyone attempts to copy from you and steal product. Innovation above all needs to be protected and exploited wisely. But many seem to both copy and innovate and get away with whatever they can.
A friend that became very successful in the production of Mylar balloons had patented his production process, but that didn't keep another company (funded by a rather large nasty union fund) from going into direct competition. He chose to compete rather than waste his profits on lawyers as the opposition had very deep pockets. In his case, having the patent merely prevented being pushed out of business and put about $10 million in his pocket.
So, would you rather be right or wealthy? Should an individual respect rights that governments ignore? And... Is there any merit in being loyal to brands?
I dunno for certain.. But I do buy brands that offer consistent value, better safety, and sustained service. Cheap knock offs generally don't as quality control goes out the window when they undercut price.
And there in lies the greatest frustration with dealing with Asia - many enterprises have no concept of quality control. Thus we get toothpaste with toxic ethylene glycol rather than safe glycerin or milk powder mixed with melamine. In such cases, a more expensive brand that is truly committed to quality control wins out and survives while other companies go under.
It isn't always as serious as a health hazard. Real branded jeans are often to heavy for the weather in Taiwan, but the knock offs seem to use cheap zippers that just don't stay up or fail soon after purchase. In sum, there is always room for a company that commits to quality control, and it can create its own brand identity by doing so.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
If profit wasn't always the bottom line and there were no copyrights, patents or trademarks to worry about and all ideas were open to build off, in my personal opinion true innovation would progress far faster.
Would you stop building your great project because someone told you the button, line of code, or way of interacting was theirs? I feel like typically people try to make or find replacements, knock offs or some sort of substitute, this slows progress and leads to re-inventing the wheel over and over again instead of using a good wheel as part of a bigger design.
Those who recreate the wheel and either leave it open to everyone or significantly lower the price are helping society as long as they aren't in it for profit or significantly lowering the quality of the idea. Just my opinion.
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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
Post Edited (Ravenkallen) : 8/3/2010 3:37:09 AM GMT