Discussion: ProDuino - 3.3V Propeller based Arduino compatible board (on life s

Bill Henning

Hi,

Over in the "C on the Propeller" thread (http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=922266) Heater said he will make an Arduino Wiring compatible library for Zog.

That was the last straw.

I have a couple of Arduino's in my in box, as I have been considering making a Propeller based Arduino for a while... but I thought it would take me a while to get around to it, as I did not have time to port the compatibility library to Catalina.

Now with heater kindly doing it for Zog, I think it is time for me to start ProDuino

ProDuino basic features:

- compatible with 3.3V Arduino Duemilanove
- compatible with 3.3V Arduino shields
- 14 digital I/O's (exactly like the Arduino)
- 6 analog inputs (exactly like the Arduino)
- power switch
- power LED

Additional features:

- 128KB eeprom
- TV out
- PS2 keyboard
- IR in
- additional 8 propeller I/O's brought out to a standard 10 pin EXP connector

Question:

Which would you prefer:

1) on-board USB
2) on-board serial
3) HCOMM connector, for user-choice of PropPlug, SerPlug, 485Plug, and cheaper

I intend this board to be a surface mount board, with all surface mount components pre-assembled. I also intend to keep the cost as low as possible - I am going to try to sell it for around $49-$59 qty.1.

How many of you would want to buy such a board?

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 7/15/2010 9:50:14 PM GMT

Ale

Bill,

Chris Micro made a propeller based arduino daughterboard called propellurino or something similar. It does not have extra RAM afaik.

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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
pPropellerSim - A propeller simulator for ASM development sourceforge.net/projects/ppropellersim

Kevin Wood

Bill, the Duemilanove is a 5Vdc board.

My take on the USB, etc. is to make it work exactly like the Duemilanove - programming/comms/power via usb + additional power jack for external source.

John Abshier

If you make it compatible with Arduion shields, they are 5 volts.· Some shields use chips that do not see 3.3 Volts as high. At 60 dollars you are double the cost of a Dueilanove and about the price of an Arduino Mega (54 digital IO, 16 analog). I don't think making a Prop run Arduino code will be easy. If you do, the next version of the Arduino software may break things. I think that something like Gadget Gangster's Propeller Platform USB with an extension for an 8 channel ADC (I2C would not use any pins) would be a hardware competitor to the Arduino. Not sure what do do for software. Perhaps a version of Bean's BASIC preset for serial IO and to read ADC and some other helpers (DRead(pin) would set direction automatically, etc.)

John Abshier

Bill Henning

Ale,

Thanks for the heads up!

Here is what I found on Google:

http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=344928
http://dev.forums.reprap.org/read.php?13,27596
http://www.hobby-roboter.de/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=72

Nice board. I was not aware of it.

Throug-hole kit is 54.95 Euro at:

http://www.e-robotix.de/epages/61660837.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61660837/Products/Prop1

At today's exchange rate that is $70.87USD

Since it exists, I am not sure it is worth it to make ProDuino.

Ale said...
Bill,

Chris Micro made a propeller based arduino daughterboard called propellurino or something similar. It does not have extra RAM afaik.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Hi Kevin,

Agreed; perhaps I should add a 1k resistor on all digital I/O's so they are 5V compatible, and power the ADC from 5V?

Re/ USB, I was trying to see if I can keep the costs low; I will provide a financial analysis later in the thread.

Kevin Wood said...
Bill, the Duemilanove is a 5Vdc board.

My take on the USB, etc. is to make it work exactly like the Duemilanove - programming/comms/power via usb + additional power jack for external source.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Thanks John.

I am seeing many 3.3V "Arduino" products; however your and Kevin's point is well taken.

Costs are not set yet, heck based on feedback so far, I am not even sure I will make it. I will post a financial analysis for the board a bit later, so people can see why it can't be $20 or $29.

The reason I was thinking for making one is to attract the arduino crowd to the light side of the force... thus the video out and keyboard, and eight extra I/O's that just happen to be compatible with my upcoming modules.

Regards,

Bill

John Abshier said...
If you make it compatible with Arduion shields, they are 5 volts. Some shields use chips that do not see 3.3 Volts as high. At 60 dollars you are double the cost of a Dueilanove and about the price of an Arduino Mega (54 digital IO, 16 analog). I don't think making a Prop run Arduino code will be easy. If you do, the next version of the Arduino software may break things. I think that something like Gadget Gangster's Propeller Platform USB with an extension for an 8 channel ADC (I2C would not use any pins) would be a hardware competitor to the Arduino. Not sure what do do for software. Perhaps a version of Bean's BASIC preset for serial IO and to read ADC and some other helpers (DRead(pin) would set direction automatically, etc.)

John Abshier

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Simplified price analysis of ProDuino:

If I decide to make it, it would be surface mount, with all surface mount parts assembled onto the board. This requires a significant up-front investment on my part, as unless I make at least 200 boards, I can't get them assembled at anywhere near a reasonable price.

Why surface mount?

To be able to sell it at anywhere near a reasonable price, I need to lower my costs as much as is possible. If I have to get them hand assembled, it impacts the price very negatively.

If the boards are surface mount, because I need to make about 200 of them, I need to get them into distribution.

Distributor's require a 45% margin.

Let's use my ideal target price, qty.1, of $49 for some calculations.

$49-45% = $26.95 <-- this is what I'd get from a distributor.

Rough BOM estimate, qty.100 on parts:

$819 props $729+approx, $40 shipping to me, say $50 shipping to Asia for assembly
$ 98 wonderful "HST" tax I'd have to pay on above, that I probably cannot reclaim
----
$917

Let's assume I get everything else from one place, for one shipping. I actually took the cheaper qty.100 price from several places, but let's figure I can get near that from Newark, Digikey or FutureElectronics.

$3.00 128KB EEPROM (24FC1025) - forget it, I need to back down to $1 64KB
$3.65 FT232RL USB chip
$2.65 MCP3208
$1.50 3.3Vreg
$6.00 approx, for connectors, passives, xtal

---

$17.17 * 100

$1717, call it $1750 with shipping, add 12% HST
$210 HST

---

$1960

Now we can figure out my cost:

$ 917 for propellers
$1960 for rest of parts
$1000 for assembly
$ 500 for express shipping from asia
$ 500 for PCB's
$ 200 for prototyping

---

$5077 for 100 boards

That includes $0 for profit, for my time, for Sapieha's time laying the board out, for my forking out about $5100 to get them built.

Yes, if everyone in the group helps me find cheaper assembly, cheaper PCB production, it might fall to $45/board my cost.

Regarding the HST, it just came in, and the rules are not clear yet. If I sell to Canadian buyers, I can charge them HST, and thus get an input tax credit against the HST I have to pay. It is not clear yet if the gov will let me claim the HST input credit and cut me a cheque for non-canadian buyers.

So to sell at distribution, with zero profit to me, and Sapieha not getting anything either, I'd have to charge $51/.55 = $92.72USD just to break even on parts costs.

The picture changes if I get to make 1000 boards, and get them shipped freight, with much cheaper building costs, and cheaper component costs - but I am not willing to invest the money to build 1000 boards and get stuck with that kind of inventory.

Conclusion:

ProDuino is stillborn, I cannot afford to lose money on it just to do it.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Thank you for your feedback guys.

My enthusiasm for the prop, and evangelizing it, ran away with me when I read that heater was going to make Zog Arduino compatible.

Your feedback made me do the simple financial analysis above, which clearly demonstrates making ProDuino would be financially idiotic.

I'd love to make such a board, but financially it is not feasible - not even if I forget about distribution, as I cannot sell below my true cost, and I need to factor SOMETHING in for my (and Sapieha's) time.

I think such a board is a great idea, but the market won't support it. The only people who could do it is Parallax, because they make the chips, have pcb manufacturing facilities, pick and place to assemble the boards - no way a small company like mine can afford to make it. And even Parallax would likely only break even.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

heater

Bill: Did I really say "will" ?

Thing is, this is something Zog can do on the Prop that is unique to Zog at the moment. It also looks like quite an easy API for us to shoot for so it looks like my curiosity will get the better of me and I'll have to try this.

You do realize the Arduino API is in C++ so porting a compatibility layer to Catalina is a bit tricky.

By the way, wasn't it you that poo pooed the idea of using C++ with Zog on the Prop? All the while those guys have been using it on dinky AVRs.

Actually it looks like they have been quite smart. I have not tried it yet but it looks like they have taken C/C++ and presented it in an IDE that is no more complex the the PropTool. They have written programming documentation that presents the bare minimum of C/C++ to get people up and running, hiding all the fearsome details of both those languages. I don't think I saw mention of a pointer anywhere yet for example.

I think ProDuino is a great idea.

The devil is in the details of course. If it is to be Arduino compatible it really has to be "drop in" compatible. Same digital I/O, same analog I/O with same voltage ranges, same timers, same power supply, form factor etc etc. I know nothing of Arduino details, is this really possible? At least it looks like the Arduino API hides any messy AVR specifics.

One issue may be performance. Is C++ under Zog on the Prop fast enough to satisfy Arduino users?

Of course it also has to offer more than the Arduino to justify the cost. Some how we have to be able to make it possible to use those extra pins, video, timers and cogs. Zog will allow multiple Arduino programs ("sketches" I think they call them) to run concurrently. Or to have functions running as threads in other Cogs. Or to use Spin code running in parallel with C++.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

heater

Hot damn, that was a short lived idea. Looks like Arduino on the Prop will only ever be a proof of concept or demo on Zog's part.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

trodoss

@heater,
I wouldn't give up on the idea of porting Arduino on the prop with Zog. It might be that the Propeller Platform (s) that Nick (Gadget Gangster) has might make use of it.

@Bill,
Maybe making a "shield adapter" for the Arduino shields (adapting to their size/spacing/pinout) for the "Propeller Platforms" might be a more feasable project? Just a thought.

--trodoss

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I have always thought this would be an excellent idea and I understand that it's not a wise choice for Parallax to lead it themselves. This would create an excellent opportunity to introduce "arduino-ites" to the propeller, especially if only simple code tweaks are required to use a Propeller compatible C compiler. This could be a great way to open a lot of doors for the propeller since so many ideas are being brought to life with the Arduino. (even though in my opinion, it would be much easier on the prop to do the same thing)

Some of my thoughts:

1) The I/O needs to be 5 volt tolerant/compatible since the Arduino is 5v, even though the Arduino Pro is available in a 3.3v version.
2) USB needs to be onboard to be more competitive and "equivalent".
3) Price range really needs to be lower which may hamper the idea. The Arduino is $29.99 at Sparkfun. A Propeller based version should cost a bit more due to the added ability, but in the range of 30% higher. At $59.99, you will only be selling to prop users that want to make use of Arduino shields.
4) Keep the main board basic and to the features of the Arduino (except the access to additional I/O). Then add the Propeller magic features to a shield board. This will keep the cost down, but the compatibility is dead-on.
5) Get a design down, but hold off on trying to go to market until it's proven that Arduino code can be brought onto the prop somehow. Until that can occur, your market is limited those listed in number 3.


some may be redundant to previous posts as I started typing this a few hours ago......

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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger

Kevin Wood

You could trim the cost somewhat if you left out the video/keyboard/IR stuff, and just built the basic Arduino. All of that stuff could be added via shields, and not necessarily by you.

As far aas distribution... ebay is your friend

Kevin Wood

Yeah, what Andrew said. Just take the Arduino schematic (it's open source) and modify it just enough to drop in a Propeller.

heater, I don't think that most Arduino users think in terms of MIPS, but rather "getting things done". FWIW, it will do 20MIPS @ 20MHz clock.

That said, how many cogs does Zog need, and what performance are you talking? Because if you could essentially emulate an Arduino in a cog, then in theory it would be like having 8 Arduinos on a board. There is a general push to standardize the shield IO for I2C, and to make shields stackable. So with that, depending on shield configurations, you could devote a few cogs to various sheilds, and still have some left over to coordinate everything.

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier: bitlash.net/wiki/start. That ought to give you some more ideas.

Bill Henning

heater:

I was poo-poo ing the full C++ thing with constant new()/delete()'s killing performance.

You showed me that ZOG is very good with static subset of C++, so I am intrigued...

I may revive ProDuino, after some drastic cost cutting and inventory cost reductions... ie forget surface mount!

trodoss:

I might revive the idea, as a through hole design - then bare pcb's and partial kits can be sold, and I don't have to buy 100x SMT components; I can share inventory with the rest of my products

WBA Consulting:

Great feedback!

BUT: Atmega328 approx $3, Prop+EEPROM approx $8

To reduce price, USB has to go. If I decide to do a trough hole verson, it will have an HCOMM connector; people can buy PropPlug or SerPlug.

Kevin Wood:

Ebay now costs me approx. 15%-17% after the new fee structure, PayPal costs, and dollar conversion is taken into effect. Volume is also not as high as I expected (search for ebay user mikronauts to find my Ebay sales page)

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Guys, I love the feedback - keep it coming!

Since the idea is well received, perhaps I will revive ProDuino in a form that is more acceptable to my wallet (and wife).

I will play with some concepts, but the following changes are absolutely unavoidable due to my financial analysis above:

- must be through-hole
- I must drop USB
- standard eeprom must be 64KB (1/3rd the cost of a 128KB eeprom)
- I should make the Arduino position I/O 5V tolerant

Even with that, there is simply no way to sell it for $29. I would lose on every sale.

If I can't compete on price, I have to compete on features - make the buyers want the extra features!

I love Kevin's suggestion above that it should be sold on the basis of 8xArduino - perhaps the name should be ProDuino8X ?

I am now looking at making larger - perhaps Mega format - to fit DIP40 prop, and extra features.

Do you guys think people would be interested in a $12.95 bare pcb, and various levels of kits (at various prices)?

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Kevin Wood

Bill, have you seen these variations on the theme? arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware, www.moderndevice.com/products/bbb-kit

So yeah, you could drop USB. If you do, I would see about making it compatible with both the Prop* & whatever the non-usb Arduino+clones use if possible. That way people that have a compatible programming device aren't mentally adding that to the cost. But only use what makes sense.

As for kits... most of the shields available come in kit form (see SparkFun or Adafruit), and are through hole. I personally don't want kits, but only because I'm not set up to build them. But if a kit was all that was available, I would see if somebody wanted to make a few bucks and build one.

I think that as long as the board was pin compatible/shield compatible with the Duemilanove, you would have implemented the most important hardware feature.

Post Edited (Kevin Wood) : 7/15/2010 7:46:33 PM GMT

smbaker

Kevin Wood said...
You could trim the cost somewhat if you left out the video/keyboard/IR stuff, and just built the basic Arduino. All of that stuff could be added via shields, and not necessarily by you.

Another option is a hybrid SMT/through-hole design. The basic components (CPU, A/D, memory, power, etc) SMT and preassembled. The options (video/keyboard/etc) laid out as through-hole and left unpopulated. Keep the preassembled part as basic as possible, only enough to support the arduino-compatible IO requirements. I wouldn't mind in the least having to use a prop plug instead of having on-board USB.

Bill Henning said...
Do you guys think people would be interested in a $12.95 bare pcb, and various levels of kits (at various prices)?

This would be a great idea. There have been arduino "shields" that I've been tempted to buy, but I have no desire to learn yet another new CPU and invest in yet another infrastructure of components and tools, and I really like the design of the prop.

trodoss

@Bill,
If you wanted to provide USB support you could use something like BradC's code:
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=675656

It would lower the cost to a few resistors + USB connector (leaving out the FTDI chip) and could be done on a through-hole, even if it is just an option.

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Visit the Propeller Powered SIG·fourm kindly hosted at Savage Circuits


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I wouldn't expect the same cost, but maybe $39.99. I just meant that $59.99 will keep most Arduino-ites away. The added features of the prop automatically enable some ability to raise the price that should make up the cost difference of the key parts. In volume you should be able to easily hit $39.99.

What about a Propeller Platform add-on board that converts the the Platform board into an Arduino compatible setup? (ADC, voltage translators, etc) You would also have room for adding Propeller only stuff like TV/VGA/PS2/etc.

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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger

Bill Henning

Kevin,

Thanks for the links! I've been to the first, but not the second, before.

Right now, what makes the most sense to me is to provide an 'HCOMM' connector (PropPlug+5th pin for +3.3V) as then people could choose between the PropPlug, SerPlug and 485Plug for their external communications.

If there is sufficient board space, I could support the 6 pin serial connector, but it would require adding a transistor, a capacitor, and two resistors for the reset circuit. I am not sure the added complexity and board space is worth it.

What I am thinking of right now is a through-hole board that is shield compatible with the Duemilanove, with extra prop magic [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Kevin Wood said...
Bill, have you seen these variations on the theme? arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware, www.moderndevice.com/products/bbb-kit

So yeah, you could drop USB. If you do, I would see about making it compatible with both the Prop* & whatever the non-usb Arduino+clones use if possible. That way people that have a compatible programming device aren't mentally adding that to the cost. But only use what makes sense.

As for kits... most of the shields available come in kit form (see SparkFun or Adafruit), and are through hole. I personally don't want kits, but only because I'm not set up to build them. But if a kit was all that was available, I would see if somebody wanted to make a few bucks and build one.

I think that as long as the board was pin compatible/shield compatible with the Duemilanove, you would have implemented the most important hardware feature.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

The only SMT option I am considering right now is an optional uSD socket; I already stock those, and they are not that difficult to solder.

The problem with the hybrid approach is the same as my original idea - I do NOT want to stock ~200 semi-built boards without being certain they will sell in a relatively short period of time. Even if I could get them assembled for a lot less, it would still add more inventory cost and related costs than I am willing to shoulder right now. And like you say, people don't have to populate the keyboard/video/ir section immediately.

I am glad that you confirmed my guess that most people would not mind having to use a PropPlug (or SerPlug) for programming - that helps.

Anyone would be able to sell add-ons - the board will take standard shields, plus I am planning on having one standard 10 pin connector like on all of my designs (and previously, on ProtoBoards)

I am glad you like the idea [noparse]:)[/noparse]

smbaker said...

Kevin Wood said...
You could trim the cost somewhat if you left out the video/keyboard/IR stuff, and just built the basic Arduino. All of that stuff could be added via shields, and not necessarily by you.

Another option is a hybrid SMT/through-hole design. The basic components (CPU, A/D, memory, power, etc) SMT and preassembled. The options (video/keyboard/etc) laid out as through-hole and left unpopulated. Keep the preassembled part as basic as possible, only enough to support the arduino-compatible IO requirements. I wouldn't mind in the least having to use a prop plug instead of having on-board USB.

Bill Henning said...
Do you guys think people would be interested in a $12.95 bare pcb, and various levels of kits (at various prices)?

This would be a great idea. There have been arduino "shields" that I've been tempted to buy, but I have no desire to learn yet another new CPU and invest in yet another infrastructure of components and tools, and I really like the design of the prop.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

Actually, I was thinking of taking the Propteus schematic, adding an A/D, and Arduino compatible headers [noparse]:)[/noparse]

The Atmega based schematics are not exactly right for the prop [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Thanks, I will check out the link!

Kevin Wood said...
Yeah, what Andrew said. Just take the Arduino schematic (it's open source) and modify it just enough to drop in a Propeller.

heater, I don't think that most Arduino users think in terms of MIPS, but rather "getting things done". FWIW, it will do 20MIPS @ 20MHz clock.

That said, how many cogs does Zog need, and what performance are you talking? Because if you could essentially emulate an Arduino in a cog, then in theory it would be like having 8 Arduinos on a board. There is a general push to standardize the shield IO for I2C, and to make shields stackable. So with that, depending on shield configurations, you could devote a few cogs to various sheilds, and still have some left over to coordinate everything.

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier: bitlash.net/wiki/start. That ought to give you some more ideas.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

trodoss,

Now why did I not think of that? I have been following that thread with great interest... taking it under advisement.

trodoss said...
@Bill,
If you wanted to provide USB support you could use something like BradC's code:
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=675656

It would lower the cost to a few resistors + USB connector (leaving out the FTDI chip) and could be done on a through-hole, even if it is just an option.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

heater

Kevin: Zogs performance worries me here.

Zog in one COG will run C/C++ code. It can use the pins and timers and counters by itself just like the Spin interpreter does but a tad slower. Nowhere near the speed of a 16MHz AVR running C code. I have not checked but I'd be surprised if we are getting 500K instructions per second.

Wait a minute, an AVR only an eight biter. Zog is 32 bit. What size is an int in Arduino C? Perhaps we are comparable after all.

So we can run 8 C/C++programs or threads at the same time. But that does not make an Arduino. It needs at least:

Analog to digital - 1 Cog say.
UART - 1 Cog.
EEPROM driver - 1 Cog.
All those PWM outputs - ? Cogs.
What else ?

bitlash looks like something Zog should be running, arduino or not, interesting.


Bill: Picking though your posts quickly:

"make the buyers want the extra features"

Yes, the only way to justify the size of a through hole board and the price.
Surely the unique selling point here is the Props Video, perhaps SD card support.

"...should be sold on the basis of 8xArduino"

Not quite, we need COGs for peripherals. See above.

"drop USB."

I don't think so. We may all have Prop Plugs, Arduino heads do not. That's another 23 Euro for them, See below. And it comes standard on the latest Arduino version, see below.

trodoss may be right about BradC's USB/serial driver not sure how workable it is.

This board must power from USB to match the Duemilanove board.

"...with extra prop magic "

Essential.

"...my guess that most people would not mind having to use a PropPlug (or SerPlug) for programming"

Disagree totally. See above.

And now the results of a little research - Arduino vs Propeller Cost:


Here in Helsinki I can get almost immediately:

1) Arduino Duemilanove board for 23 Euro
Atmega 328
14 digital I/O (6 can be PWM)
6 analog inputs
16MHz
USB serial connection and USB power
32K Bytes FLASH
2K RAM
ICSP header

2) Propeller development board 28 Euro
You know nothing on it but Prop and regulators
Needs USB PropPlug to program it, another 23 Euro

3) Propeller Demo Board 74 Euro (Inc Prop Plug)
You know, very nice.

4) DIP Propeller chip 11 Euro

Add Value Added Tax to all prices 22%

I start to see why so many thousands of Arduino boards have been sold around the world.

I also think I have to shell out and get a Duemilanove board just to be sure that whatever we do is compatible.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Bill Henning

I'd like to sell at $49, but I am not sure that is feasible. I will post a BOM and price analysis when the revised design shakes out. I am also searching for less expensive PCB fab, and forgetting about getting the boards pre-built.

To hit $39.99 would require very high volume and a distribution network.

Distributors will only pay $21.99 for a product they sell for $39.99 qty.1

There is no way I can get my costs to $21.99, including all prototyping, shipping, duty, etc costs. I'd need to get to the 10k-20k piece volume level to get the pricing I'd need, and I doubt I'd ever sell that many boards. Nor will I invest several hundred thousand to build up a huge inventory I will never sell.

Without being able to get the costs that low, it is impossible to get into distribution, which makes volume pricing that is needed for getting anywhere near that price impossible.

I cannot build products where I lose money on every sale, nor will I invest the $30,000+ required to have 1000 boards and kits made, as I have absolutely no guarantee that I'd sell them in any reasonable ammount of time even at a break-even price.

I really am not picking on you; this is something I run into on the forum all the time. People simply don't understand pricing models.

WBA Consulting said...
I wouldn't expect the same cost, but maybe $39.99. I just meant that $59.99 will keep most Arduino-ites away. The added features of the prop automatically enable some ability to raise the price that should make up the cost difference of the key parts. In volume you should be able to easily hit $39.99.

What about a Propeller Platform add-on board that converts the the Platform board into an Arduino compatible setup? (ADC, voltage translators, etc) You would also have room for adding Propeller only stuff like TV/VGA/PS2/etc.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Bill Henning

heater,

For the ADC I was thinking of an MCP3208, SPI driver would be library based and not take a cog, if high speed is desired, use a cog. I don't want to tie up 3 cogs and twelve pins for six channels of sigma-delta.

No need to tie up a cog for an eeprom driver, use a library function, VMCOG will swap it in when needed [noparse]:)[/noparse]

PWM outputs = 1 cog

Re rest:

"make buyers want extra features"

Agreed, I have been leaning towards adding uSD, and I intended video, IR in, and PS/2 keyboard from the start

"8xArduino"

I don't think we need to tie up that many cogs, but good point.

"drop USB"

There are many Arduino boards without serial. USB (other than the three-cog, four resistor software approach) just adds too much cost to the BOM. I can bundle SerCog.

I'd love to provide USB, but people are already objecting to the price I'd have to charge WITHOUT USB.

For the super-price-sensitive crowd, I can sell a bare ProDuino PCB with a bare SerPlug PCB.

"extra magic"

It is essential, but it costs money.

I realize you disagree about people accepting ProDuino without on-board USB, however

1) lot of Arduino boards do NOT have USB
2) everyone wants low cost. that is not compatible with USB

Re/ price research

I absolutely agree, the Propeller cannot compete there purely on price.

Another data point for you:

TI MSP430 Launchpad. $4.30, shipping included. I bought six to play with.

However we have already agreed that ProDuino cannot compete on price.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Tubular

Bill, agreed re the DIP analysis. Couldn't we make a low cost adapter that upgrades existing ATMEGA8 boards to the prop?

And don't forget BradC's and Micah's USB contributions may be a big asset here even if not particularly compliant

I have no time to go into detail on this now, but here's a sketch to keep us thinking

*edited to clarify*

Post Edited (Tubular) : 7/16/2010 12:46:44 AM GMT

Bill Henning

Tubular,

I am trying to keep costs as low as possible. Adding a daughter board to an existing board - Jon's, the ProtoBoards, or even my Propteus, would have a cost greater than a stand-alonge ProDuino.

I am already catching unwarranted grief for not wanting to lose money on every single sale, can you imagine how much grief I would get if I sold a $25 adapter to another $35 board that still required a $15 PropPlug?

Not to mention that buyers would have to stack boards?

If I am doing this - which is by no means certain yet - it will be a stand-alone "ProDuino" board, which takes Arduino shields.

And frankly, I am trying to lure people away from the Arduino / Atmel chips to the Light side. That demands one clean board, with special features they can't get, not a stack of boards.

BradC's and Michael's work is FANTASTIC, I just don't think I can afford three cogs for it on ProDuino.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

WBA Consulting

Bill, no offense taken at all by the way, this is all good dialog/debate/brainstorming that will help everyone. I know that many people do not understand the logistics of component sourcing and total product costing. However, I do have quite a bit of knowledge in that realm. I have been in electronics manufacturing for 19 years (9 OEM and 10 so far as CM), so I have done my share of product costing analysis. I think the biggest obstacle you will face is volume pricing from your suppliers. I know of parts from Digikey that are ~$9 but can be purchased from other distributors at about $5 (even at single piece pricing) However, these other distributors don't sell to just anyone. Another example is the FTDI chip. Single piece pricing at Digikey is $4.50, but I can source it elsewhere for $3.70 (at single pieces). Of course this is also because of contacts with distributor reps through my employer, etc. I guess what I am saying is that some of my opinions may be based upon the fact that I know I can get BOM costs lower than most others with the resources/contacts/business relationships I have.

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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger