So the discussion of how to get to "everyday JOE" was wandered into another thread with the actual problem being,
how to entice engineers to use the Propeller is everyday designs. That works for me.
We are left with Brian.
@Heater,
You and I are pretty close to agreement about what might attract young Brians to the Propeller.
How about a propeller board enclosed in a "friendly" plastic box, attached to the TV. An additional connection of a wireless
mini keyboard with mouse (about $40.00 on ebay) would provide easy controls from across the room.
A self contained environment with an SD slot would suffice. Ditch propDOS and get a basic GUI running with FemtoBASIC to start?
Oldbitcollector said...
So....We are left with Brian....what might attract young Brians to the Propeller....
One possibility is to try to use the Prop as a way of "supersizing" or turbocharging some other venue that is already popular with the Brians. I'm thinking, for example, LEGO Mindstorms and such. Kids start out with something like LEGOs but, as is often the case with some Brians, there's a competitive jonesing phenomenon that happens between some kids, and the Propeller might be able to piggyback to this sort of Pop Culture kiddytech and give them an additional wow-factor to impress their friends and influence enemies. As far as I know, LEGO doesn't interface with a TV, so that might be a place to start. How about something that blends a computer gamish sorta thing with an actual moving robot, so there's some sort of correlation between what they see on their beloved TV and what their creations are doing on the living room floor?
This is the keyboard I have in mind.. PS/2 makes it immediately friendly. Just need to shorten the cable between the receiver and the little box containing a Propeller as they will both be near the TV. I like the idea of bluetooth.
Oldbitcollector said...
This is the keyboard I have in mind.. PS/2 makes it immediately friendly. Just need to shorten the cable between the receiver and the little box containing a Propeller as they will both be near the TV. I like the idea of bluetooth.
I've stayed out of this thread so far... but I'll jump in now, and mention that...
PropCade is designed precisely to popularize the Propeller. I am testing the new PCB revision, and other than a new software bug that I introduced with my last VMCOG work, it looks great so far. Business matters have kept me too busy to post photo's, but I should be able to do so by sometime tomorrow.
It would be difficult to include HDMI, for licensing reasons. HDMI capable devices have some limits on what is exposed to the end user that are mandated by the content creators. Something as open as a Propeller would not jive with HDMI.
HDMI is pretty much just DVI with an added layer of encryption. All HDMI capable devices will display the unencrypted DVI just fine.
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"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"
inexpensive 40 pin DIP P8X32A-D40 := total breadboard flexibility(or never touch a soldering iron)·+ essentially throw away capability(or how not to worry about ESD) + multiple propeller circuits (you can't do that with Intel/AMD chips unless you have KWH's and $).
thank you Parallax
/michael
Post Edited (Michael O'Brien) : 7/16/2010 3:28:39 AM GMT
I was just talking to a young friend in his 20's...
He said he wants his cellphone to be able to control his car. Perhaps start it or turn things on/off.
He has the latest and most fancy cellphone you can get. He said something about it having opensorce software and apps on it. I forget what brand cellphone.
Anyway that would be the route to this person's interest in a microcontroller.
He knows nothing about cellphone apps or programming microcontrollers, but was able to quickly learn how to change blinky LEDs on the Stamp I have.
So he would need something with complete instructions from cellphone to vehicle install. Perhaps there is an off-the-shelf vehicle start system which could be controlled by the Propeller easily?
I seem to notice a lot of younger people who have a cellphone glued to their ear constantly! Maybe that is the route to their hearts?
Now I know so. How am I going to interface the Prop to my new Android phone?
I find it criminal that these high end computers they call phones now a days don't have moe practical connectivity options. Even USB host mode would do.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
potatohead said...
Don't they require encryption compliance for using the HDMI logo? I'm pretty sure all of that is subject to a license as well
So don't use the logo. Problem solved. You can legally put a USB connector on a device that is not USB compliant. As long as you don't say it's USB compliant and don't use the logo you are fine. HDMI the same. You simply say it supports a DVI interface that will plug into a HDMI device.
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"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"
Bluetooth opens up so much connectivity potential with vasts amount of consumer devices, opening up lots of possibilities for creative projects. What could someone possibly do with a keyboard, wii remote, or even a bluetooth headset? Of course, the major challenge is software, but new objects are constantly being written, or modified so that can greatly simplify things.
As for interacting with phones, there are so many different approaches possible for this. Some are more difficult now with modern phones, yet some are easier. For instance, a smartphone could access something like a spinneret via wireless web. Or a GSM modem module can be added to a device, allowing communication anywhere there is signal from the wireless carrier. Slightly different from using a modem module would be using the data port on a phone ( older models tend to be easier) to send and receive various data specified for GSM & CDMA compatibility. Here is an example of a product using that last approach:
markaeric: I just ordered myself an Android phone, an extravagance for me really but it has a beautiful display and I want to play around with Android, yet another gadget to program.
So first thought is how to talk to my Props?
Bluetooth sounds reasonable. But wow the Parallax Easy Bluetooth Module is 70 dollars. That's a lot to do what a serial cable can do for me.
Spinneret sounds reasonable. I bet that's 70 dollars or so. Again an expensive serial link.
Data port on the phone. What data port on the phone?
A WIFI module for the Prop like Sparkfuns WiFly GSX 802.11b/g Serial Module for 50 dollars might be the thing for me.
So you see I'm stuck. The only hole in this machine is the USB port. Probably does not support USB host. If it does it might take a while to crack how to use it. Perhaps use a PIC or something with USB host mode to connect to the phone as a device and make a USB/serial link. Hard work.
Could always use the headset connection and Bell modem object[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
It's something I've mentioned on another thread. I've got a Dell Streak tablet (Android), and I'd like to be able to use the USB port on that. I just don't know how it works, though. I've got a feeling that it can be used in both host and device mode.
How about displaying data on the screen and receiving that with some sort of sensor? That sort of thing used to be quite common many years ago, I even experimented with it myself.
Here are a couple of things I just found that might help:
Leon: Interesting link. I nearly shelled out for a Nokia N900 a while back until I read in a few places that it's USB port was not physically wired correctly to be usable as in host mode.
For the Android I had seen hints, perhaps it was even your links there, that host mode was possible. Just have to hope the Samsung hardware I have on order is up to it.
Who will be the first to make an Android android using a mobile phone a Propeller and robot chassis?
Actually I was fantasizing yesterday about that idea of displaying images on the screen picked up by the Prop using photo diodes or LEDs. In the reverse direction we have to shine some leds at the camera. It's not going to be very fast. But could be a fun experiment.
Alternatively there is Morse code through the headset connection[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I showed some people my microcontrollers. Some people get scared because they're in a conversation and they don't know how to build things or they wouldn't know what to do with them.· They·feel awkward because they don't know anything and they don't want to look bad.· You could probably disguise the prop as a mini-computer and they could learn micocontrollers by having it disguised as a mini-computer. The Demoboard should probably be redesigned which it probably will be for Prop II. It should probably come preloaded with Propbasic, include an SD card reader or two and have a piezo speaker on it.· Include more addressable memory and have headers for other props (daughterboards). Newbies probably can't build new stuff right away but if you give them the tools and include things to play with then they can create video, create sound, save files and run programs.· They need a microcontroller / mini-computer. Oh, and they need a user manual to teach them spin.· The Commodore 64 had a user manual that taught people Basic for the first time.· Teach them Prop Basic and Spin in an elementary fashion and they'll be using microcontrollers without knowing it.· At the end of the manual, you can ask them what they think they learned.· Tell them they just learned to use a microcontroller if they went through all of the lessons.· This is probably what we might see from Prop II. I have a few minor ideas to add to this.
I saw a graph years back that I can't find at the moment, but graphs the number of users and the cutting edge-ness of the tech in a bell curve.
The purpose is to illustrate how technology starts very expensive and available to a few, and move to cheap and readily available to all.
We are still at the 'expensive and available to but a few' stage, because even though the prop is cheap, users have to have decades of experience to use it effectively (give or take). While most folks could buy a BOE and make LED flash, and many of us can bog down the prop with lot of code; few of us are capable of using the prop to its full potential (possible example humanoido http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=1&m=468244, there are others, you know who you are).
Our experiments, discoveries and communication are building up pressure. Eventually, some set of knowledge will be in place to burst across the chasm in link 2. Then a new set of functionality that is perceived as useful to the medium tech population, and folks will buy and off-the-shelf appliance or something, that take full advantage of parallel execution and fulfills a set of needs we didn't know we had...
Or something like that, I haven't have my coffee yet.
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There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't
I'm in the camp with chuckz, with the following additions:
1. Offer some daughtercards as part of the product introduction that "do real world things" -- call them gizmo boards
2. Have 2 prop system minium -- "front prop" runs the machine, -- auxillary props are what the user programs to run their gizmo boards
I see something about the size of an etch a sketch that opens like a laptop and exposes the gizmo ports (pins or headers)...
After market for gizmo boards is also a potential if the gizmo bus can be standardized.
Yep. I see it that way as well. The Parallax product life cycle is quite long. A quick look at the stamp and it's life is a very interesting case. There are pressures on the propeller however, that are not there on the stamp. IMHO, the get started risk on a MCU is higher, which is significant to address, if we are to see the latter stages of that life cycle.
Yeah, I've had similar experiences. Games can loosen them up some. Almost everybody likes simple, goofy games.
I keep circling back around to something like an Apple ][noparse][[/noparse], only smaller. Maybe Andre' has this licked?
Apples were really cool. They came with enough stuff for people to learn, do, play, build. The Prop today is a lot like that, which is why I'm spending time with them. To me, they are a lot like little computers. Prop I is almost big enough... Maybe it actually is big enough to do that. We've a lot of smarts here, and progress is being made.
One thing I would love to see is a case that holds a board, has places for simple I/O, contains keyboard, display, and some breadboard area, along with key signals, power and some controls to fiddle with. Switches, pots, encoders, etc...
Yeah, I've had similar experiences. Games can loosen them up some. Almost everybody likes simple, goofy games.
I keep circling back around to something like an Apple ][noparse][[/noparse], only smaller. Maybe Andre' has this licked?
The industry is going to be different in 20 years from now and that is the reason why I think anyone who wants to compete has to reinvent themselves over and over.
We all have different goals and visions.· I can't dictate to them my vision and they make a good product.
I would like to see a more consumer based computer that could rival the Commodore 64.· The Amiga was supposed to do this and a lot of their users are die hards; they are still writing programs 25 years later, writing emulators and building emulators.· I think if someone was to produce the Commodore 65 (not 64) today then I would buy five units.
I would like to see a more powerful unit.· I read on Andre's site they could make a more powerful unit.· The Prop II could provide that but other things could be done because I think more silicon needs to be added.
I think we share a similar vision. A keyboard, with a fold up display, and behind the keyboard are ports to the the gizmo bus (maybe under a snap on cover), in fact one of the first gizmo boards could te the "bread board gizmo" which offers much of the features of the PPDB ?
fun to think of this stuff -- now if only I had a big pile of dough to do this project [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Stick Andre's C3 board inside a keyboard w/SD slot which connects to A/V.
Create a low-res GUI to start with; some development tools, a copy of BASIC, games,
and some simple instructions on how to make your own.
Add to this the ability to access a few I/O pins with a Hydra type slot..
...and we've got a starting point...
This is the direction I originally started in, and I see it's still a valid direction with only difference
being that it would be more consumer friendly and look less like what the masses immediately
think looks like a bomb.
I thought I'd post a reply to a separate thread as advocacy for the Prop to the "uncle Phils" rather than the "Joes". http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=923219·And I see this thread is splintering in lots of tangents. But as Hover pointed out, it really is an extension of this original thread.
My concern is how to reach the wider base rather than letting them go to the Arduinos. It would require action on our part.
My view is that if we want to enjoy more and continued Parallax innovation then we need to help them get there.
I found out about the prop back in 2006'sh from ads Circuit Cellar. At the time I was looking at building a firefighting robot (google them - seriously fun!) and was planning on using the BS2E. But was concerned about the speed for everything I wanted to do, the Propeller was an amazing fit. The Prop1-B (extra-pins) would have been everything I needed! (I live in hope that one day they will bring out Prop1-B!). If there was only a Prop-II would be too hard and overkill (1.8V, etc) I would have gone elsewhere (reality of someone brought up on Crystal sets and TTL). Had I not used Parallax stuff before and had it been now and found the Arduino's first I may be in their forums using there stuff rather than my love of Props.
I'm less interested in outreach or connecting with the average "Joe". We should focus on connecting with the "Brians" (the geeky kid that plays with technology)·and the "Phils" (new term sorry. A "Phil" is one of us, someone inventive, into electronics, wants to get their hands dirty.). But how do we connect/outreach the "Brians" and "Phils"?
Though we may have lost the "Brians". Sorry. If I was a kid these days, bombarded with technology, I'd probably be trying to break jail on an iPhone and learn how to write my own code. It's immediate!. It's something that I'd have, it's portable, in my pocket, I can show it off and share it. It would satiate their need to create with technology. A soldering iron and components are unlikely to reach them now.
For the Phils - folks like us. Their start in electronics was a crystal set they made with their uncle, they want to get their hands dirty (they probably went from Crystal sets, to transistor projects then CMOS & TTL to a ZX81, Commodore 64/Apple][noparse][[/noparse]·or something). And they are the uncles or neighbour of little "Brian" and will probably have failed to get his attention with the Crystal set, but have noticed that he'd want to build a robot (most likely a biped or quadrotor rather than a scribbler). But where would he get the information to start? As mentioned above it can be hard to get people to the Propeller through the Arduino noise.
I've noticed that in electronic magazines that Prop related articles are rare, so if they go to a Paper shop, book store or NewsAgent and pick up an electronics magazine then they are probably going to start playing with Arduino's. Likewise if they start to look around the web for completed projects and examples (this may be contentious) but they are more likely to fall accross something other than the Propeller. And if you go into an electronic store (certainly here in Australia) it's unlikely you will find a Propeller, much less a Propeller based project or kit.
So if we want more "Brians" and "Phils" to get into the Propeller and help·drive more Parallax innovation then we need to help Parallax on getting out there. Some suggestions are;
Getting more completed projects documented and published in the completed projects forum. I've noticed that HackADay published at least one in the past (binary clock).·
Get completed projects fully documented and seek to have them turned into kits (Gadget Gangster?).
Get the completed projects on the web (HackADay, others?)
Get interesting completed projects turned into kits (to get the "Phils" to build them with the "Brians").
Get the projects published in paper and online magazines so the "Phils" can find out about them to build them with the "Brians".
Work out other "cheap" ways of getting them published where the "Phils" will find them.
Getting wider availability of these kits and components. Here in Australia I can easily buy an Arduino based kit but it would be extermely hard to buy a Propeller based kit.
The challange is making them cool to interest a wider audience. Simple robots like Penguins would be good. Interface them with current technology (Parallax will need to invest or get someone to invest in coughing up an interface module, object, and code on the platform for iPhones, iTouch, iPads, Android's, whatever). I've noticed the "home control" market now use the iTouch, iPads and iPhones as interfaces over PCs and imbedded touch screens.
And I'm sorry to say this, but the starter platforms will need to be in Basic, as the "Phils" will be better at handling that than trying to learn SPIN. (Don't get me wrong, I like SPIN, but for a starter it could be a turn-off). Most folks would have touched a flavour of Basic at some time. We don't want them to walk away saying it's too hard, takes too much time.
So as a group the challange is building these base "cool" projects, peer reviewing them, polishing them, kitting, and publishing beyond these forum posts.
To get this level of advocacy this community need to work better with Parallax to build stuff that can be turned into kits, published, available and advertised. It probably starts with Parallax providing incentives by setting up the challenge to the community, probably though·more competitions or having dedicated staff driving projects through the cycle.
A good example would be the Prop-based digital radio. That would be a good 2010 Xmas present Crystal radio equivellent from Uncle "Phil" to little "Brian" to build together. Or a robotic equivelent that apped to "Brians" iPad/iPhone/iTouch. That would start to build a new market.
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It's all a function of time.
In the long run, the cheapest route to go would probably be by using a wifi or bluetooth connection, as you wouldn't have to pay any service charges associated with a GSM/CDMA module. I could only imagine the heartache associated with communicating to the phone with some device acting as a USB host. I also think that anything other than a terminal program with maybe a GUI on top, or a web-based interface would be a lot of work, i.e. streaming video, etc. But then again, I could be wrong, as there is already all sorts of software available for android that you might be able to hack together. If not, then hopefully you're a Linux guru.
@everyone
I think the demoboard already covers a lot of ground, but if it's missing anything, I would say it would be an SD reader. Fitting demoboard in an easily opened case would be cool, and could be offered as a mini programmable computer/controller. If this were to be made and sold, I'd say it must include some sort of OS, and in-box dev tools allowing it to be programmed in basic, PASM, and spin. This would offer ease of use not even the Arduino seems to have (i've never actually touched one. only heard about them).
I will probably try a WIFI or Blutooth connection from Phone to Prop. But it's not the solution I want. Far too expensive to do what a couple of wires can do for free.
Having the device (Propeller end) as a USB host is probably out, too complex)
In the context of this thread I'd like our mythical Joe or Brian (Now uncle Phil as well) to one day come across an article describing how to connect his Android phone/tablet to a 6 dollar DIP Propeller via a 6 dollar USB/serial cable or Prop Plug with only an hours work. And see how he can then switch LEDs or drive his robot from the phone, or see how he can read data from the real world via the Prop into his Phone.
All this harkens back to the days when kids and their uncles got there new wizzy C64's or ZX81's which they could program (Which is now a phone) and then started lashing them up to all kinds of things in the real world via I/O expanders and such. Currently there is a lot of excitement and "wiz" around these phones, witness the huge Google Android gathering this summer, but no real world connection.
See "Andriod android" thread for any progress we make on that
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I had seen your new thread after I made that last reply, so I will go there for updates on the project. A simple (cheap) cable solution is always a cool option.
@all
I'm starting to like the idea of a "Proputer". Here's sort of what I had in mind:
A board design similar to the demoboard, with the addition of of an SD reader. However, all peripheral ports can be jumpered to a single DB25, or edge connector so pins don't have to be wasted. This would all be housed in an easy to open case (bonus points for one that is actually attractive looking).
The eeprom would contain a simple os with a command line interface, access to SD card resources, and dev tools. If the user chooses to run a program, the compiled data would be copied to the hub, and the spin interpreter would be pointed to the beginning of the program. Resetting the board would cause the OS to load back up from eeprom. A useful feature would be a config file that would allow automatic launching of programs.
This would provide an inexpensive programming experience similar to that of old Atari' and Commodores, but in significantly smaller, more modern, and most importantly, propeller-powered package.
Comments
how to entice engineers to use the Propeller is everyday designs. That works for me.
We are left with Brian.
@Heater,
You and I are pretty close to agreement about what might attract young Brians to the Propeller.
How about a propeller board enclosed in a "friendly" plastic box, attached to the TV. An additional connection of a wireless
mini keyboard with mouse (about $40.00 on ebay) would provide easy controls from across the room.
A self contained environment with an SD slot would suffice. Ditch propDOS and get a basic GUI running with FemtoBASIC to start?
OBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
I like the idea of self-contained/self-programmable hand-held box with SD Card, VGA-LCD, and touch-screen if cost can be kept low.
Do you have a link for the wireless mini keyboard? I see a blue-tooth version that could be very propeller friendly [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cheers,
--Steve
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Propeller Pages: Propeller JVM
One possibility is to try to use the Prop as a way of "supersizing" or turbocharging some other venue that is already popular with the Brians. I'm thinking, for example, LEGO Mindstorms and such. Kids start out with something like LEGOs but, as is often the case with some Brians, there's a competitive jonesing phenomenon that happens between some kids, and the Propeller might be able to piggyback to this sort of Pop Culture kiddytech and give them an additional wow-factor to impress their friends and influence enemies. As far as I know, LEGO doesn't interface with a TV, so that might be a place to start. How about something that blends a computer gamish sorta thing with an actual moving robot, so there's some sort of correlation between what they see on their beloved TV and what their creations are doing on the living room floor?
Just a thought.
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350333381326&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_3755wt_902
oBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
I love this! Yes! This is exactly the kinds of direction we need to think in!
OBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
Kiddie competitiveness? What will they think of next? Really a good idea.
Cheers.
--Steve
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Propeller Pages: Propeller JVM
I've stayed out of this thread so far... but I'll jump in now, and mention that...
PropCade is designed precisely to popularize the Propeller. I am testing the new PCB revision, and other than a new software bug that I introduced with my last VMCOG work, it looks great so far. Business matters have kept me too busy to post photo's, but I should be able to do so by sometime tomorrow.
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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
HDMI is pretty much just DVI with an added layer of encryption. All HDMI capable devices will display the unencrypted DVI just fine.
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"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"
inexpensive 40 pin DIP P8X32A-D40 := total breadboard flexibility(or never touch a soldering iron)·+ essentially throw away capability(or how not to worry about ESD) + multiple propeller circuits (you can't do that with Intel/AMD chips unless you have KWH's and $).
thank you Parallax
/michael
Post Edited (Michael O'Brien) : 7/16/2010 3:28:39 AM GMT
He said he wants his cellphone to be able to control his car. Perhaps start it or turn things on/off.
He has the latest and most fancy cellphone you can get. He said something about it having opensorce software and apps on it. I forget what brand cellphone.
Anyway that would be the route to this person's interest in a microcontroller.
He knows nothing about cellphone apps or programming microcontrollers, but was able to quickly learn how to change blinky LEDs on the Stamp I have.
So he would need something with complete instructions from cellphone to vehicle install. Perhaps there is an off-the-shelf vehicle start system which could be controlled by the Propeller easily?
I seem to notice a lot of younger people who have a cellphone glued to their ear constantly! Maybe that is the route to their hearts?
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Wondering how to set tile colors in the graphics_demo.spin?
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
I recently thought so to. Then I found the Arduino-Android mobile phone robot.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Aw76wsj7VQ
Now I know so. How am I going to interface the Prop to my new Android phone?
I find it criminal that these high end computers they call phones now a days don't have moe practical connectivity options. Even USB host mode would do.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
So don't use the logo. Problem solved. You can legally put a USB connector on a device that is not USB compliant. As long as you don't say it's USB compliant and don't use the logo you are fine. HDMI the same. You simply say it supports a DVI interface that will plug into a HDMI device.
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"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"
As for interacting with phones, there are so many different approaches possible for this. Some are more difficult now with modern phones, yet some are easier. For instance, a smartphone could access something like a spinneret via wireless web. Or a GSM modem module can be added to a device, allowing communication anywhere there is signal from the wireless carrier. Slightly different from using a modem module would be using the data port on a phone ( older models tend to be easier) to send and receive various data specified for GSM & CDMA compatibility. Here is an example of a product using that last approach:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5400&keywords=sms&form=KEYWORD
So first thought is how to talk to my Props?
Bluetooth sounds reasonable. But wow the Parallax Easy Bluetooth Module is 70 dollars. That's a lot to do what a serial cable can do for me.
Spinneret sounds reasonable. I bet that's 70 dollars or so. Again an expensive serial link.
GSM module sounds reasonable: Sparkfun's cell modules start at 100 dollars !
Data port on the phone. What data port on the phone?
A WIFI module for the Prop like Sparkfuns WiFly GSX 802.11b/g Serial Module for 50 dollars might be the thing for me.
So you see I'm stuck. The only hole in this machine is the USB port. Probably does not support USB host. If it does it might take a while to crack how to use it. Perhaps use a PIC or something with USB host mode to connect to the phone as a device and make a USB/serial link. Hard work.
Could always use the headset connection and Bell modem object[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
How about displaying data on the screen and receiving that with some sort of sensor? That sort of thing used to be quite common many years ago, I even experimented with it myself.
Here are a couple of things I just found that might help:
jkontherun.com/2010/02/17/how-to-add-a-usb-keyboard-to-an-android-phone/
www.tombom.co.uk/blog/?p=124
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 7/16/2010 11:18:36 AM GMT
For the Android I had seen hints, perhaps it was even your links there, that host mode was possible. Just have to hope the Samsung hardware I have on order is up to it.
Who will be the first to make an Android android using a mobile phone a Propeller and robot chassis?
Actually I was fantasizing yesterday about that idea of displaying images on the screen picked up by the Prop using photo diodes or LEDs. In the reverse direction we have to shine some leds at the camera. It's not going to be very fast. But could be a fun experiment.
Alternatively there is Morse code through the headset connection[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Some people get scared because they're in a conversation and they don't know how to build things or they wouldn't know what to do with them.· They·feel awkward because they don't know anything and they don't want to look bad.· You could probably disguise the prop as a mini-computer and they could learn micocontrollers by having it disguised as a mini-computer.
The Demoboard should probably be redesigned which it probably will be for Prop II.
It should probably come preloaded with Propbasic, include an SD card reader or two and have a piezo speaker on it.· Include more addressable memory and have headers for other props (daughterboards).
Newbies probably can't build new stuff right away but if you give them the tools and include things to play with then they can create video, create sound, save files and run programs.· They need a microcontroller / mini-computer.
Oh, and they need a user manual to teach them spin.· The Commodore 64 had a user manual that taught people Basic for the first time.· Teach them Prop Basic and Spin in an elementary fashion and they'll be using microcontrollers without knowing it.· At the end of the manual, you can ask them what they think they learned.· Tell them they just learned to use a microcontroller if they went through all of the lessons.· This is probably what we might see from Prop II.
I have a few minor ideas to add to this.
Parallax are the innovators and we are the early adopters
If we look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
we are on the innovator side of the chasm.
If we look at Bass's model,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Chasm
We should be in marketing, so don't look at that.
I saw a graph years back that I can't find at the moment, but graphs the number of users and the cutting edge-ness of the tech in a bell curve.
The purpose is to illustrate how technology starts very expensive and available to a few, and move to cheap and readily available to all.
We are still at the 'expensive and available to but a few' stage, because even though the prop is cheap, users have to have decades of experience to use it effectively (give or take). While most folks could buy a BOE and make LED flash, and many of us can bog down the prop with lot of code; few of us are capable of using the prop to its full potential (possible example humanoido http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=1&m=468244, there are others, you know who you are).
Our experiments, discoveries and communication are building up pressure. Eventually, some set of knowledge will be in place to burst across the chasm in link 2. Then a new set of functionality that is perceived as useful to the medium tech population, and folks will buy and off-the-shelf appliance or something, that take full advantage of parallel execution and fulfills a set of needs we didn't know we had...
Or something like that, I haven't have my coffee yet.
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There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't
1. Offer some daughtercards as part of the product introduction that "do real world things" -- call them gizmo boards
2. Have 2 prop system minium -- "front prop" runs the machine, -- auxillary props are what the user programs to run their gizmo boards
I see something about the size of an etch a sketch that opens like a laptop and exposes the gizmo ports (pins or headers)...
After market for gizmo boards is also a potential if the gizmo bus can be standardized.
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
@prof+braino
Yep. I see it that way as well. The Parallax product life cycle is quite long. A quick look at the stamp and it's life is a very interesting case. There are pressures on the propeller however, that are not there on the stamp. IMHO, the get started risk on a MCU is higher, which is significant to address, if we are to see the latter stages of that life cycle.
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Wondering how to set tile colors in the graphics_demo.spin?
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
Post Edited (potatohead) : 7/16/2010 2:43:58 PM GMT
Yeah, I've had similar experiences. Games can loosen them up some. Almost everybody likes simple, goofy games.
I keep circling back around to something like an Apple ][noparse][[/noparse], only smaller. Maybe Andre' has this licked?
Apples were really cool. They came with enough stuff for people to learn, do, play, build. The Prop today is a lot like that, which is why I'm spending time with them. To me, they are a lot like little computers. Prop I is almost big enough... Maybe it actually is big enough to do that. We've a lot of smarts here, and progress is being made.
One thing I would love to see is a case that holds a board, has places for simple I/O, contains keyboard, display, and some breadboard area, along with key signals, power and some controls to fiddle with. Switches, pots, encoders, etc...
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Wondering how to set tile colors in the graphics_demo.spin?
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
We all have different goals and visions.· I can't dictate to them my vision and they make a good product.
I would like to see a more consumer based computer that could rival the Commodore 64.· The Amiga was supposed to do this and a lot of their users are die hards; they are still writing programs 25 years later, writing emulators and building emulators.· I think if someone was to produce the Commodore 65 (not 64) today then I would buy five units.
I would like to see a more powerful unit.· I read on Andre's site they could make a more powerful unit.· The Prop II could provide that but other things could be done because I think more silicon needs to be added.
·
I think we share a similar vision. A keyboard, with a fold up display, and behind the keyboard are ports to the the gizmo bus (maybe under a snap on cover), in fact one of the first gizmo boards could te the "bread board gizmo" which offers much of the features of the PPDB ?
fun to think of this stuff -- now if only I had a big pile of dough to do this project [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Create a low-res GUI to start with; some development tools, a copy of BASIC, games,
and some simple instructions on how to make your own.
Add to this the ability to access a few I/O pins with a Hydra type slot..
...and we've got a starting point...
This is the direction I originally started in, and I see it's still a valid direction with only difference
being that it would be more consumer friendly and look less like what the masses immediately
think looks like a bomb.
Time to get back to work.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
Post Edited (Oldbitcollector) : 7/16/2010 6:06:30 PM GMT
My concern is how to reach the wider base rather than letting them go to the Arduinos. It would require action on our part.
My view is that if we want to enjoy more and continued Parallax innovation then we need to help them get there.
I found out about the prop back in 2006'sh from ads Circuit Cellar. At the time I was looking at building a firefighting robot (google them - seriously fun!) and was planning on using the BS2E. But was concerned about the speed for everything I wanted to do, the Propeller was an amazing fit. The Prop1-B (extra-pins) would have been everything I needed! (I live in hope that one day they will bring out Prop1-B!). If there was only a Prop-II would be too hard and overkill (1.8V, etc) I would have gone elsewhere (reality of someone brought up on Crystal sets and TTL). Had I not used Parallax stuff before and had it been now and found the Arduino's first I may be in their forums using there stuff rather than my love of Props.
I'm less interested in outreach or connecting with the average "Joe". We should focus on connecting with the "Brians" (the geeky kid that plays with technology)·and the "Phils" (new term sorry. A "Phil" is one of us, someone inventive, into electronics, wants to get their hands dirty.). But how do we connect/outreach the "Brians" and "Phils"?
Though we may have lost the "Brians". Sorry. If I was a kid these days, bombarded with technology, I'd probably be trying to break jail on an iPhone and learn how to write my own code. It's immediate!. It's something that I'd have, it's portable, in my pocket, I can show it off and share it. It would satiate their need to create with technology. A soldering iron and components are unlikely to reach them now.
For the Phils - folks like us. Their start in electronics was a crystal set they made with their uncle, they want to get their hands dirty (they probably went from Crystal sets, to transistor projects then CMOS & TTL to a ZX81, Commodore 64/Apple][noparse][[/noparse]·or something). And they are the uncles or neighbour of little "Brian" and will probably have failed to get his attention with the Crystal set, but have noticed that he'd want to build a robot (most likely a biped or quadrotor rather than a scribbler). But where would he get the information to start? As mentioned above it can be hard to get people to the Propeller through the Arduino noise.
I've noticed that in electronic magazines that Prop related articles are rare, so if they go to a Paper shop, book store or NewsAgent and pick up an electronics magazine then they are probably going to start playing with Arduino's. Likewise if they start to look around the web for completed projects and examples (this may be contentious) but they are more likely to fall accross something other than the Propeller. And if you go into an electronic store (certainly here in Australia) it's unlikely you will find a Propeller, much less a Propeller based project or kit.
So if we want more "Brians" and "Phils" to get into the Propeller and help·drive more Parallax innovation then we need to help Parallax on getting out there. Some suggestions are;
The challange is making them cool to interest a wider audience. Simple robots like Penguins would be good. Interface them with current technology (Parallax will need to invest or get someone to invest in coughing up an interface module, object, and code on the platform for iPhones, iTouch, iPads, Android's, whatever). I've noticed the "home control" market now use the iTouch, iPads and iPhones as interfaces over PCs and imbedded touch screens.
And I'm sorry to say this, but the starter platforms will need to be in Basic, as the "Phils" will be better at handling that than trying to learn SPIN. (Don't get me wrong, I like SPIN, but for a starter it could be a turn-off). Most folks would have touched a flavour of Basic at some time. We don't want them to walk away saying it's too hard, takes too much time.
So as a group the challange is building these base "cool" projects, peer reviewing them, polishing them, kitting, and publishing beyond these forum posts.
To get this level of advocacy this community need to work better with Parallax to build stuff that can be turned into kits, published, available and advertised. It probably starts with Parallax providing incentives by setting up the challenge to the community, probably though·more competitions or having dedicated staff driving projects through the cycle.
A good example would be the Prop-based digital radio. That would be a good 2010 Xmas present Crystal radio equivellent from Uncle "Phil" to little "Brian" to build together. Or a robotic equivelent that apped to "Brians" iPad/iPhone/iTouch. That would start to build a new market.
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It's all a function of time.
In the long run, the cheapest route to go would probably be by using a wifi or bluetooth connection, as you wouldn't have to pay any service charges associated with a GSM/CDMA module. I could only imagine the heartache associated with communicating to the phone with some device acting as a USB host. I also think that anything other than a terminal program with maybe a GUI on top, or a web-based interface would be a lot of work, i.e. streaming video, etc. But then again, I could be wrong, as there is already all sorts of software available for android that you might be able to hack together. If not, then hopefully you're a Linux guru.
@everyone
I think the demoboard already covers a lot of ground, but if it's missing anything, I would say it would be an SD reader. Fitting demoboard in an easily opened case would be cool, and could be offered as a mini programmable computer/controller. If this were to be made and sold, I'd say it must include some sort of OS, and in-box dev tools allowing it to be programmed in basic, PASM, and spin. This would offer ease of use not even the Arduino seems to have (i've never actually touched one. only heard about them).
I will probably try a WIFI or Blutooth connection from Phone to Prop. But it's not the solution I want. Far too expensive to do what a couple of wires can do for free.
Having the device (Propeller end) as a USB host is probably out, too complex)
In the context of this thread I'd like our mythical Joe or Brian (Now uncle Phil as well) to one day come across an article describing how to connect his Android phone/tablet to a 6 dollar DIP Propeller via a 6 dollar USB/serial cable or Prop Plug with only an hours work. And see how he can then switch LEDs or drive his robot from the phone, or see how he can read data from the real world via the Prop into his Phone.
All this harkens back to the days when kids and their uncles got there new wizzy C64's or ZX81's which they could program (Which is now a phone) and then started lashing them up to all kinds of things in the real world via I/O expanders and such. Currently there is a lot of excitement and "wiz" around these phones, witness the huge Google Android gathering this summer, but no real world connection.
See "Andriod android" thread for any progress we make on that
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I had seen your new thread after I made that last reply, so I will go there for updates on the project. A simple (cheap) cable solution is always a cool option.
@all
I'm starting to like the idea of a "Proputer". Here's sort of what I had in mind:
A board design similar to the demoboard, with the addition of of an SD reader. However, all peripheral ports can be jumpered to a single DB25, or edge connector so pins don't have to be wasted. This would all be housed in an easy to open case (bonus points for one that is actually attractive looking).
The eeprom would contain a simple os with a command line interface, access to SD card resources, and dev tools. If the user chooses to run a program, the compiled data would be copied to the hub, and the spin interpreter would be pointed to the beginning of the program. Resetting the board would cause the OS to load back up from eeprom. A useful feature would be a config file that would allow automatic launching of programs.
This would provide an inexpensive programming experience similar to that of old Atari' and Commodores, but in significantly smaller, more modern, and most importantly, propeller-powered package.