UPEW 2010 - thanks OBC, chip, ken, beau, chris, everyone + Expo & PropII observ

Bill Henning

UPEW 2010 was GREAT!

I had a blast, and I literally talked my throat raw by the end of the first day talking with everyone!

It was especially great to have a chance to talk Prop2 instructions with Chip... finally meet and talk with Mike Green, talk with Steve (Jazzed) again... and potatohead, WBA, ErNa, Jim Fouch... and too many others for me to remember their names before my morning coffee!

Yes Jeff, I will soon get FlexMem running [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Everyone LOVED Sapieha's PCB layout work!

I got the feeling that I could have sold 30+ PropCade's on the spot... and even more Mem+'s! Everyone loved my industrial modules...

Chris Savage came buy, we chatted, and at the end of Sunday he taped me describing all of the new Mikronauts boards; he will be publishing that in 2-3 segments on his webcasts.

Beau had a cool RF based robot positioning/locating demo running, very cool, very affordable. He also had a simple high-power voltage boost circuit for "turbo" robot power, and another demo I can't remember this early.

Mountain King had really nice cases for Morpheus - I bought two on the spot for myself... frankly all of his cases are great, go get some.

Raymen had his PSM's and other modules, and I could not resist picking up a PSM from him - after all, I already have ten of his screens, and two of mctrivia's adapters for them!

Andrew (WBA) had his power twigs and gave me one (thanks!), it's quite neat; and he put on a demo of reflow soldering in a toaster oven.

Peter (pvj?) gave a great talk on his multi-tasking within a cog... looks good...

Mike talked about extending Femtobasic.

Rick, the FX guys, brought a paintball chain gun - way too cool - and an animatronic tongue from Jurassic park.

I had a nice chat with Nick (GadgetGangster) and he will be carrying most of my new products.

Ken was running around like crazy - running tours, interviewing potential new engineers, running cameras - I don't think he even got time to eat! I finally got a chance to show him all my new products after UPEW closed on Sunday - he REALLY liked the industrial module, and really liked that they will work with all prop boards, Basic stamps, SX's etc [noparse]:)[/noparse]

(on Saturday I gave a boring talk, quickly describing all of my new products.)

Now as for Chip & PropII... I may have gotten some of this wrong, but here is what I remember:

- Prop2 I/O pads are finalized
- hub memory will be 256K
- package will be TQFP 128 (as I recall) 14mmx14mm
- the die is expected to be 8.5mm x 8.5mm
- he squeezed in support for 24 bit video output!!!
- he is finalizing SDRAM support!!!
- each pin will have 9 bit very high speed ADC, and slower higher resolution sigma/delta
- each pin will be capable of high speed 9 bit DAC!!!
- there will be THREE 32-bit I/O ports after all!!!
- there will be a separate 32 bit internal output port for each cog that other cogs can watch and waitcnt (with timeout) on\
- each cog will have a 32 bit port for watching other cogs internal flag ports; and it will broken up into four byte fields
- each 8 bits can come from differently configured optionally or'd group of 8 bit internal output ports from other cogs
- this can not only be used to wait for flags for syncronization, but could be used for high speed data transfer cog-to-cog
- they are hoping to have a prototype "shuttle" run in less than a year (if things go well (I think they will go well))

I also talked to him about adding a couple of instructions I have been bugging him about for over a year... if he can fit them, he will look into adding them!!!! [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse] [noparse]:)[/noparse]

movbxy dst,src - move byte Y (0..3) of src into byte X of dst
movwxy dst,src - move word Y (0,1) of src into word X of dst

I also showed a preliminary version of my new Morpheus gaming driver; I'll post those details in my Morpheus thread.

UPEW was a blast, and I want to thank everyone again... more later, and feel free to ask questions!

Bill

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

wjsteele

Great writeup, Bill.

Thanks,

Bill

heater

Good grief! What a spec for the Prop II.

If Chip is sticking with the "all COGs are equal and all pins are equal" philosophy that is one amazing piece of silicon and XMOS will have to pull their socks up[noparse]:)[/noparse] Especially with all that analog capability, SDRAM support and video.

I love the inter-COG communications idea. Just wondering if/how it is expandable to creating communication channels to COGs on different Prop IIs in a sort of seamless multi-Prop "sea of COGS". How cool would it be if one could write an app that used 32 COGs spread over 4 chips and program the lot with one hit of F11.

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For me, the past is not over yet.

Bobb Fwed

He also said a target price of $10 (low volume) for the Prop 2.
Yes, all IOs and Cogs are identical.
Each IO has a function generator: sine/cosine/saw tooth/square/(?custom?). These were said to run stably at up 40MHz. The functions can be set with frequency, amplitude, and offset!
He did mention a possible limitation on silicone real estate, thus the 256K HUB may become 128K.
Also mentioned was native support for 1080p video.
There are 96 IOs (32 IOs x 3 ports), but 4 of them are being used for ?something? thus there are 92 general purpose IOs.
120 pins for 96 IOs..where are the other 24 pins going? There will be a couple for XTAL, reset, and I believe the rest are mostly for core power and IO power.


I heard a while back about on board EEPROM. Is this still in the works? 256K HUM RAM and 256K EEPROM would be incredible!

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April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!

Post Edited (Bobb Fwed) : 6/30/2010 5:34:43 PM GMT

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I missed all but the tail end of Chip's talk via Upstream. Was there any mention of:

1. Additional counters per cog?
2. Additional counter modes (e.g. true PWM) and/or internal coupling of counters?
3. Hardware-mediated high-speed serial input (i.e. reverse waitvid)?
4. Jitter and THD estimates for the sin/cos outputs?

I really like the sin/cos outputs and "stable-to-40MHz" signal generation (assuming good jitter and THD figures). This will make HF transceiver design easier still than it already is with the Prop I!

-Phil

Roy Eltham

The SDRAM support is via the io pins. That was the reason they added more io pins. They don't have seperate special pins.
Most of the remaining pins are power and ground for the core and the io pins.

On the 128 pin package they'll have 32 pins per side, on 3 of the sides 24 of those 32 pins will be IOs, on the 4th side there will be 20 IOs and then XI, XO, BOE, and RESET.
The remaining 8 pins on each side will be power and ground for the core and IOs. Most likely one pair per side for the core, and then a pair per 8 IO pins.

I am pretty sure they won't have EEPROM on chip. They will have ROM like they do on the Prop now. They intend to have 256k rom and 256k hub ram, but those might shrink depending on the die layout/size issues.

Another thing mentioned was that there are a few less special register locations at the end of the cog memory, so you have room for a few more instructions per cog. I believe Chip said it was only 6 of them now, so you'd have 506 longs for user code/data.

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Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.

Bobb Fwed

@Phil The only mention on any of that is the outputs are 75-ohms and 9-bit resolution. I am guessing, at 40MHz, the output will hit a good portion of the 9 bits of resolution.

Additionally confirmed is the goal of 160MHz pipeline (one instruction per clock). So eight times faster per instruction over current Prop.
Also, 5-bit selectable PLL multiplier (2x-32x).

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April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!

Post Edited (Bobb Fwed) : 6/28/2010 4:32:46 PM GMT

cgracey

A few corrections:

- While there ARE 9-bit DACs (75-ohm, 3ns settling time) on every I/O pin, there are NOT similar 9-bit ADCs. There are only integrating ADCs which are·9-/13-bit accurate, depending on high-/low-bandwidth·mode.

- All I/O pins ARE the same. The pins have individually settable modes, including SDRAM clock and data modes.

An image of the pin mode chart is attached.



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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

WBA Consulting

Bill, I enjoyed getting the chance to see all your products in person and getting to see your new CPU module. Let me know how the Powertwig works out for you. I will be working on the website tonight and making additional units available.

I enjoyed doing the toaster oven reflow demonstration and answered a lot of questions. The one thing I tried to get across is that it is actually a lot easier than I had expected and the results are much better than other examples I had seen on the net. I did do a temperature tracking test on my method and verified that everything falls right in line with a ramp to spike profile for the Kester solderpaste I am using.

Thanks again to your wife spending so much time allowing my daughter Liberty to play with her Nintendo DS, etc. She enjoyed it very much.

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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger

JRetSapDoog

FWIW, integrating ADC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrating_ADC

Chris Savage

Bill,

It was great meeting you. I finally got to see about all those products you have based around the Propeller chip. Sadly, many of those you mentioned meeting I did not realize were even at the show so I missed meeting them myself. Guess we'll try again next year. Videos should be up by this weekend if I get the remaining support files early this week.

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Chris Savage

Parallax Engineering
·

ErNa

It was a great event! By the way: Integrating ADC is a bit misleading, as different people have a different understanding of what this means and are just confused. I find the term "charge balancing" ADC a little bit better, for this is, how the adc works: the charge in the small capacitor is kept constant and so the voltage, by allowing to swing around a threshold and by counting the compensating pulses need to balance out the influence of the analog input. By the way, to understand the function better it makes sense to see the input resistor as a current source, controlled by the input voltage. As one side of the resistor is connected to a constant potential, the current feed into the cap is proportional to input voltage. And as the cap is sampled in a fixed time pattern, voltage is proportional to charge injected.
So, next year we surely will see the first running PropII!

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cmapspublic3.ihmc.us:80/servlet/SBReadResourceServlet?rid=1181572927203_421963583_5511&partName=htmltext
Hello Rest Of The World
Hello Debris
Install a propeller and blow them away

JRetSapDoog

Could someone in-the-know speculate on the number of I/O pins a likely SDRAM interface would involve? I mean, could you break it down into address, data and control pins (including the clock)? Are there 8, 16 and 32-bit interface options? Multiplexing of ADDR/DATA (sounds slow)? What's a likely usage-scenario with the Prop II? How many pins are we looking at to do this? I know it takes what it takes, but I'm just looking for general principles (hello, Google). Anyway, I'm guessing that there are many kinds of chips available depending on whether interfacing to a PC, a microcontroller or an application processor, and depending on one's requirements. But does anyone have a good idea of a specific (and hopefully inexpensive and relatively straight-forward) chip that would likely be used with the Prop II? Would that be a single chip? Got a part-number, family name or link? I think I've seen references here to SRAM chips for the current Prop, but what about for an SDRAM interface for the Prop II? Yes, I know: it's waaaaaaaay too early, but just curious and this stuff makes for good reading.

Sapieha

Hi Chip Gracey (Parallax).


It is good with that ADC BUT why not build Successive approximation ADC in Propeller.
AS I understand --- You have already DAC's and Comparators + Opamps From Yours type of ADC.
NOW it is only to Build one more configuration for alternate ADC



Regards
Christoffer J

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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

Ariba

Saphiea

I thought exactly the same, when I saw the Pin Modes.

Perhaps it needs only an additional instruction which makes 1 approximation. After initializing you need to execute this
instruction once for every bit (max. 9 times because of the 9 bit DAC).
The instruction makes something similar to SUMC but depending of the ComparatorOutput instead the Carry Flag,
and a ShiftRight of the source operand. Destination can always be the DAC.
Depending of the Comparator speed we will get around 10..20 Mhz ADC sampling speed with 9 bit resolution.

Andy

Edit: ShiftRight is not really needed it can go like that:

  mov dac,#%100000000
  SAR dac,#%010000000   'SAR: add or sub source to dest depending of Comparator output
  SAR dac,#%001000000
  SAR dac,#%000100000
  SAR dac,#%000010000
  SAR dac,#%000001000
  SAR dac,#%000000100
  SAR dac,#%000000010
  SAR dac,#%000000001

Post Edited (Ariba) : 6/28/2010 9:46:24 PM GMT

Sapieha

Hi Ariba.

You are correct - BUT.
That Type of ADC can colect data in many modes
- One of them are to connect very fast counter to DAC and only look for Comparator change
- One more are to PUT values from CPU to DAC starting at Center of DAC's posibility and Look if smaller else bigger needed. If so Give DAC next value from CPU that are half of previous .... and so on.
Have even see with 2 Counters that worked in oposite direction.


Regards
Christoffer J

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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

localroger

Thanks for the writeup and the updates on the P2. Looks like it's gonna be a heck of a resource.

RossH

Ooooh, an internal port for communication between cogs! Yah boo sucks to central control! Cogs rule ok!

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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina

Bobb Fwed

@RossH
You will also be able to use these communication systems like IOs. Meaning you will not only be able to have one cog write to their comm long every cycle, and have another cog read the same info every cycle, but you will be able to use wait commands. So you could have one cog doing something, and instead of querying some common address in HUB RAM to see that the first cog is done (or wasting a physical IO), you can just waitcog (or whatever) and once the cog value it set to what you want...continue normal operation.

Chip also mentioned something about timeouts when he talked about this feature. Maybe he can shed some more light on this, but it would be very nice to have a timeout option on all the wait commands. So it basically combines the existing waitpne/wait* with a waitcnt. So either the wait parameter is met or the clock gets to a specific value before the cog resumes normal operation.

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April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!

RossH

Hi Bobb,

Thanks for the additional info - sounds great. I can't wait to get my hands on one of these little beauties!

Ross.

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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina

Harley

For all we've heard about Propeller II so far, I wonder how many other jaw-dropping items Chip will drop on us between now and when the Prop II details are announced?

It's going to be a long 'year???' waiting to hear how the first silicon pans out.

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Harley Shanko

Granz

Unfortunately, I was unable to attend (will be at UPENE). Did Chip mention how many cogs will be on each Prop II?

Art

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Art G. Granzeier III
President, Granzeier Consulting

Helping to Build a Better Engineer

Bobb Fwed

There will be 8.

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April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!

Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!

Cluso99

WOW. I like the fact we are back to 92/96 I/Os

No doubt the 4 are for loading the boot code - from eeprom, SD card, PC, USB, etc. I had suggested one pin have an external pullup or pulldown with various values that could be used to determine where to boot from and Chip liked the idea. This saves having to try each possibility in turn.

Chip has stated very clearly before that the process they use will not allow internal FLASH/EEPROM. He said there will likely be 16bits??? of internal one-time fuses for a serial number or something. He mentioned this may also have the possibility of decoding encrypted code.

Chip has mentioned a cheap SRAM on the previous big thread. I would expect the SRAM interface is likely to support this chip. With 92 IOs we can use some of them (maybe the whole upper 28?) with the help of an internal interface to add large SRAMs. IIRC it was 8MB??? I would expect that the SRAM will be required to support the 1080p 24bit video

The integrating ADC 9/13 bit depending on speed is a great addition. I am not an analog person, so cannot comment on Sapieha's or Ariba's comments.

The inter-cog registers will be·a fantastic addition. And to be able to mix from various cogs too, and to use a waitxxx instruction on them. These can be used for interrupts between cogs, to pass bits/bytes/words/longs between cogs, or to flag something is done. And they can be OR'ed between cogs too. What will we be able to do now.·WOW

Waitxxx with timeouts is another great advantage. (mentioned before)

Bill mentioned 2 new instructions. I am going to start a new thread to discuss this as I have a few concerns and ideas.

Chip... Please do not make a PropII with less than 256KB Hub RAM. Drop the ROM if necessary (yes I know it is a much smaller footprint). I think anything under 256KB will be a disaster considering the power of the PropII and the way other chips are advancing. I expect we will be loading cog code (either by overlays or LMM) from hub a lot more than we do with the Prop I.

My·only disappointment is the delay of the PropII

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Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz

Bill Henning

Chip:

Thanks for a great presentation, and for the corrections to my post! The PinModes information is great.

Chris Savage:

Thanks - it was great meeting you too! I will start sending you the support files today, perhaps even finish sending them today. I got home last night and crashed.

wjsteele,

Thanks!

heater:

I agree - can't wait to get my hands on Prop2

Bobb Fwed:

Thank you for filling in some missing pieces; I knew I would not remember everything!

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi):

Sorry, there was some more info on counters, but I did not catch it all.

Roy Eltham:

Thanks for the missing pieces, and I agree, no EEPROM.

WBA Consulting:

It was great to meet you too! I'll definitely try Powertwig, it seems extremely useful for solderless breadboarding.

Nice reflow demo! I was listenting from the side.

You are most welcome, Liberty is totally adorable, and Agnes enoyed spending time with her.

JRetSapDoog:

Nice link.

The usage of the port pins for SDRAM would vary depending on the specific SDRAM device, data bus with, and breakdown of addressing pins (row address width, column address width, number of banks)

ErNa:

It was great meeting you, and I look forward to trying that nice small module you gave me!

Sapieha:

Great suggestion!

Ariba:

That would work nicely - and fast, at 160MHz

localroger:

You are welcome - and yes, I can't wait to start designing around it.

RossH:

I can think of soooo many uses for the internal comm's...

Bobb Fwed:

Thanks for the updated info.

Harley:

Good point. Well, of one defines long as waiting on the edge of ones seat.. then yes, it will be a long year.

Cluso99:

I think you are right about the 4 pins.

I will look on your new thread about the two instructions and comment there [noparse]:)[/noparse]

I agree about the delay... but I would rather have it fully cooked in 1-2 years than buggy in 6 months!

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Invent-O-Doc

Cool. Any news on the on-chip development environment for prop II?

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---

Tom Talbot
New Market, MD, USA

Duane Degn

I watched a lot of UPEW 2010 and it looked like a lot of fun.

I do have my reservations about using Ustream again.· I noticed a large increase in spam after I signed up with Ustream.· I could be coincidence, but suspect Ustream of selling my email address.· Did anyone else have increased spam after signing up with Ustream?

My gripe is against Ustream, not against any one here on the forum.



Let's see, something more on topic?

Oh, that paint ball gatling gun was too cool!· I still haven't made my own tentacle but I sure plan to.

One of these years I'll be there.

Duane

schill

Duane Degn said...
I do have my reservations about using Ustream again. I noticed a large increase in spam after I signed up with Ustream. I could be coincidence, but suspect Ustream of selling my email address. Did anyone else have increased spam after signing up with Ustream?

I have used ustream in the past and don't think I received any spam because of it. The email address I gave them has only been used with them so I would notice the spam.

That's not to say that your experience couldn't be different or that things haven't changed with them.

Duane Degn

schill,

Good to know.· There are many other possible sources for the increased spam.· The timing of the increase caused me to suspect Ustream.· I'm glad to know I was wrong.

Duane·

Chris Savage

Bill Henning wrote: »

UPEW 2010 was GREAT!

I had a blast, and I literally talked my throat raw by the end of the first day talking with everyone!

Chris Savage came buy, we chatted, and at the end of Sunday he taped me describing all of the new Mikronauts boards; he will be publishing that in 2-3 segments on his webcasts.

I forgot to follow up and mention that the video was completed some time ago and is available on my website. I'm interested in hearing if the video was informational/useful to anyone. Bill, I hope the video helps you sell some product. Take care.

Savage Circuits TV Episode 8: Bill Henning at the 2010 UPEW

KaosKidd

WBA Consulting wrote: »

Bill, I enjoyed getting the chance to see all your products in person and getting to see your new CPU module. Let me know how the Powertwig works out for you. I will be working on the website tonight and making additional units available.

I enjoyed doing the toaster oven reflow demonstration and answered a lot of questions. The one thing I tried to get across is that it is actually a lot easier than I had expected and the results are much better than other examples I had seen on the net. I did do a temperature tracking test on my method and verified that everything falls right in line with a ramp to spike profile for the Kester solderpaste I am using.

Thanks again to your wife spending so much time allowing my daughter Liberty to play with her Nintendo DS, etc. She enjoyed it very much.

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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
PowerTwig Dual Output Power Supply Module
My Prop projects: Reverse Geo-Cache Box, Custom Metronome, Micro Plunge Logger

Do you think you could share the steps / tools / materials needed to do the toaster reflow here?... Please?

KK