FRAM?

Ravenkallen

I have heard very little about a relatively new memory technology. Ramtron's·FRAM. In the description it says that it is as fast as a RAM, but has the Non-Volatility of a EEPROM or flash. The i2c version has a density up to 1mb and a i2c speed of 3.4 megahertz. It also has a endurance of 1 trillion writes.··I am not sure if anybody on this forum has used the device, but it sounds extremely promising. You can use it as a drop in replacement for a i2c eeprom with no modification. Imagine if Parallax started using these little babies on the propeller. They could have the thing boot up in like 100ms, plus they could have way larger programs, and they could even use the device as ram. I wonder if anybody has developed a driver for the device? I know a regular i2c driver might work, but it wouldn't even begin to unleash it's full speed. If this chip is really as good as the company boasts it is, then Parallax should jump on board, even though the device is 3 or 4 times the price of a conventional eeprom. I'm not saying that Parallax shouldn't use regular eeproms anymore, i'm just saying that this device will come down in price some and eventually it might replace eeproms all together. Any comments/ thoughts? Or perhaps a driver?

Here is the datasheet. The chips are carried on mouser and a few others

http://www.ramtron.com/files/datasheets/FM24V10_ds.pdf

Bill Henning

Sapieha really likes FRAM, and he designed a small board I will be selling soon (and showing at UPEW).

It is interesting technology, however it is VERY expensive compared to EEPROM, FLASH or SPI RAM.

Unfortunately parts larger than 32Kx8 (256 kbit) were not available in a DIP form factor last time I checked.

Ravenkallen said...
I have heard very little about a relatively new memory technology. Ramtron's FRAM. In the description it says that it is as fast as a RAM, but has the Non-Volatility of a EEPROM or flash. The i2c version has a density up to 1mb and a i2c speed of 3.4 megahertz. It also has a endurance of 1 trillion writes. I am not sure if anybody on this forum has used the device, but it sounds extremely promising. You can use it as a drop in replacement for a i2c eeprom with no modification. Imagine if Parallax started using these little babies on the propeller. They could have the thing boot up in like 100ms, plus they could have way larger programs, and they could even use the device as ram. I wonder if anybody has developed a driver for the device? I know a regular i2c driver might work, but it wouldn't even begin to unleash it's full speed. If this chip is really as good as the company boasts it is, then Parallax should jump on board, even though the device is 3 or 4 times the price of a conventional eeprom. I'm not saying that Parallax shouldn't use regular eeproms anymore, i'm just saying that this device will come down in price some and eventually it might replace eeproms all together. Any comments/ thoughts? Or perhaps a driver?


Here is the datasheet. The chips are carried on mouser and a few others



http://www.ramtron.com/files/datasheets/FM24V10_ds.pdf

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

MagIO2

I use the RAMTRONs in all my boards ... that's 2 ;o) But I like em. And what should I say, I use the 5V version because these are available in a bigger package and they work perfectly! I simply soldered some wire to the pins and replaced the EEPROMs in the sockets.

Currently I don't feel the need to writy my own driver, I simply use the Basic_I2C - have better things to do ;o)

Booting is not faster and can't be, as the timing is fixed in the bootloader.

mwalimu

I use a 1024 KB FRAM on a board i built. i used a Breakout board from Sparkfun. Tied the address pins to ground and no driver is needed. Works very nicely.

fixmax

Could it be possible to get a Prop stick USB based on this 1Mb FRAM chip? I have considered using the PropStick USB, and with a price already at $80, a few dollars more wouldn't be a big deal, say $90 to cover the chip cost. I really really like this new memory, this new board could potentially address some of the current roadblocks we may be having, especially with the OS discussions and such.

hover1

I don't think Parallax will be upgrading to a FRAM on the PropStick in the very near future, but I would expect maybe an upgrade to a 24LC512. That would have to wait for the next run of chips.
Do expect to see FRAMS used on all sorts of third party boards.
Jim

fixmax said...
Could it be possible to get a Prop stick USB based on this 1Mb FRAM chip? I have considered using the PropStick USB, and with a price already at $80, a few dollars more wouldn't be a big deal, say $90 to cover the chip cost. I really really like this new memory, this new board could potentially address some of the current roadblocks we may be having, especially with the OS discussions and such.

Ravenkallen

@MagicIO.... Yeah, they would have to change the boot loader in order for it to work. Maybe something they could do on the Prop 2. What i2c driver do you use? How fast does it work up to?


@Bill Henning... Yeah, they are all SOIC, but seeing as they have only 8 pins, it wouldn't be to hard to modify. What kinda board are we talking about here?

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Bill Henning

Ravenkallen:

about 1.2"x1.2", holds a SMT 14-pin FM32L278 fram/rtc, xtal, and an 8 pin SOIC8/dip8 fram.

Goes to a 4 pin header: GND, SCK, SDA, 3.3V (same as on my boards with an I2C header)

other through holes for extra signals from RTC/fram

I am supposed to get the PCB's this week.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Ravenkallen

@Bill Henning.... That sounds cool. 1.2 x1.2 is really small. Is this board just for the FRAM or does it have a propeller?

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Bill Henning

Just FRAM/RTC combo chip, plus second FRAM footprint - meant as an add-on to other prop boards.

I also have a small module coming that can take a SOIC8 FRAM [noparse]:)[/noparse]

(actually the new Morpheus, Morpheus+, PropCade, CPUModule, and PLC-G can all take FRAM's - and so can FlexMem)

Ravenkallen said...
@Bill Henning.... That sounds cool. 1.2 x1.2 is really small. Is this board just for the FRAM or does it have a propeller?

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Ravenkallen

@Bill Henning. So your board is pretty much a SMT to Through hole adapter? Do you supply the components? What driver do you use for the FRAM?

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

K2

FRAM is great, but it sure was a long time coming. Seems like I first got excited about Ramtron and the prospects of FRAM a quarter of a century ago.

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The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Sapieha

Hi Ravenkallen.

FM31L278 Board

As Bill started talk on it -I will present little more.
It was my private Experiments board but if anyone like it TALK with Bill to BUY this.

10 pin's header are Parallax ProtoBoadr compatible on - Pin's 24-31 side (used pins only SDA, SCK, 3.3V, GND)
Short header use 4+1 pin's 3.3V.SDA,SCK, GND + WDog
On top side all signals that RTC ic can give You.


Regards
Christoffer J

Ps. My program have some problems to generate correct TEXT on 3D - sorry

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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

Post Edited (Sapieha) : 6/15/2010 4:59:13 AM GMT

StefanL38

question @ sapieha by the way

how do you create these 3D-pictures of the boards with all the components?

best regards

Stefan

Sapieha

Hi StefanL38.

My Layout program supports 3D create from Layout.
3D parts are in 3DS format. That are attached to Layouts components.

Regards

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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

Bill Henning

It's a tiny add-pn board, and this board was Sapieha's idea [noparse]:)[/noparse]

I think its a great way of adding an RTC and FRAM to an existing board - all it really needs is 4 wires to GND, SCL, SCA, Vcc and away you go!

Granted, I don't have a driver for the RTC yet, but that will happen too.

I see he posted some nice pics and more info [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Ravenkallen said...
@Bill Henning. So your board is pretty much a SMT to Through hole adapter? Do you supply the components? What driver do you use for the FRAM?

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Zap-o

I use Fram as a replacement for the 24LC256. The part cost more but works the same.

hairymnstr

FRAM isn't all that new, I think I've been using it in hobby stuff for nearly 10 years now!!

It's great for prototyping and fast development, I used the DIP versions to replace ROMs on old Z80 systems so I could tinker with the firmware without the hassle of changing the footprint or extra space for battery backed SRAM. Trouble is it is a bit touchy about power spikes on startup, I've seen many a system that would probably work okay with a Flash/EEPROM that has to be re-programmed regularly because of power-on glitches corrupting bits of the FRAM. Not to say they don't or can't work, but you need to take some extra care on decoupling and chip select pull-ups.

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Nathan

"Free as in freedom, beer gratefully accepted though."

Sapieha

Hi hairymnstr.

As parts I use not have any /CS - It is I2C IC's only thing to consider are to have BIG enough Tantalum Cap on this PCB.
and one standard decoupling cap-100uF - That will eat up glitches.


Regards



Ps. With use of this board as EEProm replacement only drivers that are needed are RTC driver.
RAM part are Propeller loader compatible.

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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

Post Edited (Sapieha) : 6/15/2010 3:03:52 PM GMT

Ravenkallen

@ Sapieha And Bill Henning.... That board sounds really cool, but did you say that it comes pre-assembled? Somebody should work on a faster driver for it, that would be awesome


@ Everybody... I guess FRAM isn't as new as i thought it was.

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Bill Henning

I will be offering it in three versions:

1) bare board
2) full kit
3) assembled and tested

I still have to test the boards (should be in this week) and work out the pricing, which will largely depend on the FRAM prices.

If the board sells in large quantities, I could write a fast driver.

Ravenkallen said...
@ Sapieha And Bill Henning.... That board sounds really cool, but did you say that it comes pre-assembled? Somebody should work on a faster driver for it, that would be awesome


@ Everybody... I guess FRAM isn't as new as i thought it was.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Sapieha

Hi Ravenkallen.

If it comes pre-assembled -That only Bill can answer.

BUT RTC are 50 mils in spacing between pins That are easy to solder. On 8 pins Holder 2 types are to simple to solder.
Only hard to solder are FRAM-in TDFN package BUT not impossible.
SOIC-8 are simple to solder to.


FM31L278/L276/L274/L272
3V Integrated Processor Companion with Memory
PS. Board are compatible with all of them. Only diference on them are RAM area and

FM31L278 = 256Kbit
FM31L276 = 64Kbit
FM31L274 = 6Kbit
FM31L272 = 4Kbit



Regards

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


Sapieha

Post Edited (Sapieha) : 6/15/2010 3:57:36 PM GMT

Ravenkallen

It is just that i am not very good at surface mount soldering. The only SMT component that i have soldered, was two OSRAM golden dragon plus leds. I have been meaning to try SMT soldering, but i haven't had the time/ Proper set up. If your assembled board is gonna be less than 20-30 dollars you can sign me up. I wonder how hard it would be to modify an existing driver to make up for the FRAM's higher speed?

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Bill Henning

I can sell a board with the FM31L278-G, crystal, caps mounted on it for $25USD+s/h (for forum members)

That would be an RTC and a 32Kx8 FRAM that could be used as the boot eeprom. Note, booting would not be faster, as the bootloader is in ROM on the prop.

It would be more if a second FRAM was also to be mounted. There is not a big price difference between the 64Kx8 FRAM and the 128Kx8 (both are expensive), and adding another 32Kx8 does not make sense to me.

I can probably sell an assembled board with a FM32L278G, crystal, caps, and an additional FM24VN10G for a total of 160KB of fram for $45USD+s/h (for forum members)

Unfortunately these chips are not cheap, and I can't stock large numbers of them as I have no idea how many will sell.

Ravenkallen said...
It is just that i am not very good at surface mount soldering. The only SMT component that i have soldered, was two OSRAM golden dragon plus leds. I have been meaning to try SMT soldering, but i haven't had the time/ Proper set up. If your assembled board is gonna be less than 20-30 dollars you can sign me up. I wonder how hard it would be to modify an existing driver to make up for the FRAM's higher speed?

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Ravenkallen

@ Bill Henning... Yeah, i am kinda strapped for cash right now( Who isn't). The first board sounds very reasonable, however. I guess i should try buying some basic SMT chips and do some practice soldering.

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Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet

Bill Henning

The current economy does suck.

I am expecting the five prototype boards this week. Unfortunately I won't be doing a production run of this board unless I receive a fair number of pre-orders, as the costs of getting a production run of boards outweigh my currently anticipated sales for the board for a year.

I will bring a board to UPEW to show, and send some to Sapieha for his experiments.

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www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com
My products: Morpheus / Mem+ / PropCade / FlexMem / VMCOG / Propteus / Proteus / SerPlug
and 6.250MHz Crystals to run Propellers at 100MHz & 5.0" OEM TFT VGA LCD modules
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system