ARLISS Team NH

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  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-24 - 21:21:27
    1.) For the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere i got between 391ppm and 393 ppm. http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/ http://co2now.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide
    Im not sure if the CO2 level would be consistent around the world at around the same altitude.

    2.) Between 4% and 5% of the air we exhale is CO2, but this varies with things like fitness in a particular person.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breathing

    3.) On the graph you found in the data sheet on the Parallax website, what does the x-axis represent?
  • Andrew (ARLISS)Andrew (ARLISS) Posts: 213
    edited 2010-05-24 - 21:37:20
    Justin Abbott said...

    3.) On the graph you found in the data sheet on the Parallax website, what does the x-axis represent?

    I'm guessing that's quantity of the gas, measured in ppm.

    EDIT: Yes, that is what it is. It says that on the lower-right of the graph.

    Post Edited (Andrew (ARLISS)) : 5/24/2010 9:42:03 PM GMT
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-24 - 23:52:58
    ARLISS Rocketeers,

    ·· So it looks like 'average' CO2 concentration is around 390 ppm (parts per million), and it seems that we exhale about 5% CO2 with each breath. In what layer of the atmosphere will the ASP be measuring and recording CO2? The·troposphere? The stratosphere?·Recall that Dr. Allen asked you to locate CO2 concentrations from all the different layers of the atmosphere. I believe that your data is only from the lower troposphere, the atmospheric layer in which we live.

    DYLAN, what are the sources for your data? Where did it come from? Please include this information so others can confirm your data.

    JUSTIN, is 'wikipedia' a credible scientific source?

    I ordered·a CO2 sensor (and the module it goes on)·and a BS2e stamp from Parallax today. We should have them by the weekend. Please check in daily and be actively involved in the dialogue. Also, please ask questions! We're fortunate to have so very helpful and competent professionals guiding us along: Dr. Allen, Sylvie, Mike Green and others. They can only·help if you ASK QUESTIONS.

    Checking in later,

    Mr. Kibler
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-25 - 00:01:25
    Tracy Allen wrote:

    "Parallax sells both the raw sensor (605-00010) and that same sensor mounted on a PCB with support circuitry (27929). The raw sensor does need support circuitry to interface with the Stamp."

    These are what I ordered today along with a BS2e stamp. I ordered the new 'stamp' so we have more available memory space for programming, and so we don't have to completely rewire and re-program the ASP-1. Hopefull the CO2 sensor will be a simple add-on sensor. Time will tell.

    ROCKETEERS - Just so you know, a 'PCB' is a 'printed circuit board' .... (or polychlorinated biphenyl, a pollutant)
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:07:07
    Mr Kibler,

    If I remember correctly from last year when me and Christopher were programming we couldn't get the time to that small of a decimal. Could the ·more expierienced members of the forum help·answer.
  • Dylan LandryDylan Landry Posts: 235
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:13:53
    1.) 392.39 ppm of CO2 is in our Atmosphere. http://co2now.org/ They got their answer from the ESRL and NOAA.

    3.)http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/docs/prod/sens/MG811Datasheet.pdf (second page) (having trouble retrieving the image)


    Since we would be launching probably no more then 10 miles into the air wouldn't it just be in the Troposphere? And if so, wouldn't our ground level reading be the same. And if not, off by such a little amount that we wouldn't notice it?

    Question: Is ppm a percentage amount? Or is it like liter, cup, gallon. If so... Is it metric? I keep finding sources that state it in mL, and when I convert 450 mL i get 20,000 ppm.. Currently I am finding very few sources at all that even state the amount of CO2 in a single human breath.
  • edited 2010-05-25 - 01:15:23
    1)All of the ones I had seen were around 390 ppm.
    Sources: http://co2now.org/, http://www.ipcc-data.org/ddc_co2.html,)
    2)4-6%
    Sources[noparse]:([/noparse]http://www.biotopics.co.uk/humans/inhaledexhaled.html,http://www.plantscafe.net/modules/b_book_engl_t1_m2.pdf)
    3)Havent really found one yet

    Thank you all for your help
  • Dylan LandryDylan Landry Posts: 235
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:19:21
    Same with Sean. I didn't post them though because I wasn't sure if they had to be in PPM or just percentages.
  • Mike NHMike NH Posts: 34
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:19:58
    Dr. Tracy Allen,
    I had a bit of trouble finding accurate data for the amount of CO2 exhaled by humans, but I found three credible sources for the amount of CO2 levels in the atmospher, my only problem was, and I will label it to make it more easy to find, but my third link is above a volcanoe, which I'm pretty sure is going to generate much more CO2, anyways here are the links for the CO2 in different levels of the atmosphere, though I believe the launch will only go up to the lower-mid troposhere.

    CO2 in Atmospere:

    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html

    http://www.strom.clemson.edu/becker/prtm320/commons/carbon3.html

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/index.html#global (this is the one that is above a volcano)

    The amount exhaled by humans was a bit harder to find from a credible source, so I'm only going to link the one that I believe is credible, terribly sorry I couldn't find more, I have links to the other sites if you want them though.

    CO2 Exhaled by Humans:

    http://www.omsolar.net/en/omsolar1/co2_emissions.html

    And finally, the sensitivity curve... which I am going to contact Andrew about because, and it's probably right infront of me on this site, I can't seem to find it, so sorry for the problems I've had, but I will get that too you by the end of tomorrow, probably closer to tonight.

    I greatly appreciate all of your time you're donating to us, so thank you for that.

    Thanks,
    Mike P.

    P.S. Just to introduce myself, I'm another one of the members of ARLISS N.H. Again thanks for all of your time.
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:27:34
    Hi all,

    From http://co2now.org/ I found that 387.35 ppm of Co2 was in the atmoshpere. there is a graph on the website that shows the change in gas concentrations and in April 2010 it has 392.39 ppm. I think the second number is preliminary data.
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:28:32
    Also the website above is only about Co2 so it could hekp anyone who needs information about the gas.
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:31:51
    Dylan,

    I think ppm stands for parts per minute. Is that what you're looking for.
  • Andrew (ARLISS)Andrew (ARLISS) Posts: 213
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:32:46
    Dylan Landry said...
    Same with Sean. I didn't post them though because I wasn't sure if they had to be in PPM or just percentages.

    As far as I understand, parts per million (ppm) is the correct unit for this problem as the CO2 sensor reads out data using ppm. There are tutorials online that will teach you how to convert from a percentage to parts per million or vice-versa.
    Mike NH said...
    Dr. Tracy Allen,
    I had a bit of trouble finding accurate data for the amount of CO2 exhaled by humans, but I found three credible sources for the amount of CO2 levels in the atmospher, my only problem was, and I will label it to make it more easy to find, but my third link is above a volcanoe, which I'm pretty sure is going to generate much more CO2, anyways here are the links for the CO2 in different levels of the atmosphere, though I believe the launch will only go up to the lower-mid troposhere.

    CO2 in Atmospere:

    http://cdiac.ornl.gov/pns/current_ghg.html

    http://www.strom.clemson.edu/becker/prtm320/commons/carbon3.html

    http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/index.html#global (this is the one that is above a volcano)

    The amount exhaled by humans was a bit harder to find from a credible source, so I'm only going to link the one that I believe is credible, terribly sorry I couldn't find more, I have links to the other sites if you want them though.

    CO2 Exhaled by Humans:

    http://www.omsolar.net/en/omsolar1/co2_emissions.html

    And finally, the sensitivity curve... which I am going to contact Andrew about because, and it's probably right infront of me on this site, I can't seem to find it, so sorry for the problems I've had, but I will get that too you by the end of tomorrow, probably closer to tonight.

    I greatly appreciate all of your time you're donating to us, so thank you for that.

    Thanks,
    Mike P.

    P.S. Just to introduce myself, I'm another one of the members of ARLISS N.H. Again thanks for all of your time.

    I think we can agree the amount in the atmosphere is about 380 ppm, based on several sources. I cannot find many more sources that directly state the amount exhaled in a breath, but according to a few sources including a post dated 2/16/2008 by Dr. Allen, "...exhaled air is around 0.45%..." (4,500 PPM) and "...normal atmospheric concentration is between 0.03% and 0.5%...". (300 to 500 PPM). This seems to be about what recent posts have estimated, but I hope I'm not taking this previous post out of context.

    Source: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=706370
    (towards the end of the first post on the third page of that thread)
  • Dylan LandryDylan Landry Posts: 235
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:36:57
    I think we can all agree with Andrew on his data at the bottom. I also don't believe our rocket will go past the troposphere, so i don't think there will be a need to check out the concentrations in higher atmospheres.
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:39:54
    Everyone,

    Have a nice night I'm going to go to sleep.
  • Tom ARLISS- NHTom ARLISS- NH Posts: 10
    edited 2010-05-25 - 01:50:52
    Before I leave, Mr. Kibler asked some questions in an e-mail. We live in the Troposphere, the altitude does range at poles and the equator. It occurs at the poles at about 8 km (5 miles) and goes up to 18 km. Last year the rocket went about 2 1/2-3 miles.
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-25 - 02:33:42
    Good work team! I think you·answered all of Dr. Allen's questions and you learned a some new information about atmospheric sampling and·measurement.·I wonder·what he plans to do with·your information? Why don't you ask him...?!

    See you in class tomorrow,

    Mr. Kibler
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-25 - 17:00:30
    Here is some quick program code for the CO sensor.

    =========================================================================
    '
    ' File...... CO Gas Sensor.bs2
    ' Purpose... Runs the CO Gas Sensor Module Heater
    ' Author.... Parallax, Inc.
    ' E-mail.... support@parallax.com
    ' Started... 02-09-2009
    ' Updated...
    '
    ' {$STAMP BS2}
    ' {$PBASIC 2.5}
    '
    ' =========================================================================


    '
    [noparse][[/noparse] Program Description ]

    ' This program runs the Gas Sensor Heater through two phases (voltages) as
    ' recommended by the manufacturer datasheet. The sensor should run for at
    ' least 10 minutes in clean air before any calibration is done.

    ' The first phase is the PURGE phase where the heater element is turned on
    ' at a full 5V. This clears the sensor and no checking for an alarm
    ' condition is done here. The DEBUG screen will count down the 60 seconds
    ' of this phase.

    ' The second phase is the SENSE phase where the heater element is run at
    ' ~1.4V for 90 seconds. It is during this phase that the sensor can be
    ' calibrated or that the sensor is checked for alarm conditions.


    '
    [noparse][[/noparse] I/O Definitions ]

    HSW PIN 0 ' Heater Switch Control
    ALR PIN 1 ' Alarm Input Sense


    '
    [noparse][[/noparse] Variables ]

    index VAR Word ' Counter Variable


    '
    [noparse][[/noparse] Program Code ]

    Main:
    DO
    LOW HSW ' Turn Heater ON
    FOR index = 59 TO 0 ' Count Down 60 Seconds
    DEBUG HOME, "PURGE MODE...", DEC2 index, " "
    PAUSE 1000 ' 1 Second Pause
    NEXT
    index = 1710 ' Approximately 90 Seconds
    DO ' Of Iterations On BS2
    DEBUG HOME, "SENSE MODE...", DEC2 index / 19
    LOW HSW ' Turn Heater ON
    PAUSE 15 ' For 15 mS
    INPUT HSW ' Turn Heater OFF
    PAUSE 3 ' For 3 mS
    index = index - 1 ' Decrement Counter
    IF ALR = 1 THEN ' Check For Alarm Condition
    DEBUG " ***ALARM***" ' Display Alarm Condition
    ELSE
    DEBUG " " ' Clear Alarm Condition
    ENDIF
    LOOP UNTIL index = 0 ' End Of Sense Mode Loop
    LOOP

    [noparse][[/noparse]code]
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-25 - 17:29:23
    The code above is for the CO module. We looked up the CO2 and CO modules to see if the PCB were the same and they are not. The Pin outputs and inputs are not exactly the same. I will look up program code for the CO2 module.

    -Dylan
  • Mark in NHMark in NH Posts: 447
    edited 2010-05-25 - 17:45:54
    NOTE: The data we posted for the CO2 concentration (above) is actually from the MIDDLE of the troposphere (about 13 km or 8 miles up.). A NASA website says:

    Says, The "...image to the right shows the monthly average of carbon dioxide in the middle troposphere..."

    The CO2 concentration in the image was 390 ppm, which is the average of what we found in our research. The middle of the troposphere is about 13 km (about 8 miles) up. Our ASP-2 payload won't come close to that altitude. It shouldn't exceed 5-6 km (15-20,000 ft.)

    http://airs.jpl.nasa.gov/AIRS_CO2_Data/About_AIRS_CO2_Data/
  • Mike NHMike NH Posts: 34
    edited 2010-05-25 - 19:41:23
    Dr. Allen,
    ·· Here are our team’s answers to the homework you gave us.
    1)····· ANSWERS TO QUESTION #1: What is the typical concentration of CO2 you would expect to find in the atmosphere, at different altitudes?
    ·
    *These CO2 concentrations are from ground level of the troposphere, the atmospheric layer in which we live (0 to 14-16 kilometers, or ground level to 8-10 miles up according to NASA.) Since our atmospheric sampling probe (ASP) won’t be going above the troposphere, do you want CO2 concentrations for atmospheric levels above the troposphere (stratosphere, exosphere, etc.)?
    ·
    ········· Dylan: CO2 concentration in the troposphere is 392.39 ppm (parts per million)
    ········· Mike: CO2 concentrations is 384.8 ppm
    ········· Justin: CO2 concentrations is 392.39 (Same source as Dylan)
    ········· Sean: “around 390 ppm”
    ········· Andrew:· 387 ppm
    ········· Thomas: April 2010, 392.39 ppm (Same source as Dylan and Justin)
    ········· Average of Dylan, Mike, Sean, Andrew= 388.5 ppm =389 ppm
    ·
    Data is from a 1996 atmospheric study over Siberia············
    Atmospheric CO2 Concentrations have increased about 10% since 1996··

    Altitude ········· CO2 conc. - 1996
    (km)················ (ppm)
    ··········· 0·········
    ··········· 0.5·················· 346
    ··········· 1····················· 348
    ··········· 1.5·················· 350
    ··········· 2····················· 352
    ··········· 2.5······
    ··········· 3····················· 354
    ··········· 3.5······
    ··········· 4····················· 355
    ··········· 4.5······
    ··········· 5·········
    ··········· 5.5·················· 359
    ··········· 6·········
    ··········· 6.5······
    ··········· 7····················· 358
    ·······················
    ·
    2)····· ANSWER TO QUESTION #2: What is the typical concentration of CO2 in the air that is exhaled by a human being?
    ·
    ········· Andrew #1: “Average exhaled breath contains about 5.3 % CO2 by volume”
    ········· Andrew #2:· "...exhaled air is around 0.45%..." (4,500 PPM) and "...normal atmospheric concentration is between 0.03% and 0.5%...". (300 to 500 PPM). - 2/16/2008 by Dr. Allen,
    Source: forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=6&m=247882&p=3
    ········· Dylan/ Mr. Kibler: “[noparse][[/noparse](150 ml)/(500 ml) x 0.04% CO2] + [noparse][[/noparse](350 ml)/(500 ml) x 5.3% CO2] = 3.7% CO2 by volume, which is equivalent to 5.7% CO2 by weight”…. Source: http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/pns/faq_othr.html
    ········· Sean: 4-6% Source: http://www.biotopics.co.uk/humans/inhaledexhaled.html
    ········· Mike: No data
    ········· Justin: No data
    ········· Thomas: ·No data
    ········· Average CO2 % by volume: 5.33% CO2 by volume
    ·
    3)····· ANSWER TO QUESTION #3: Find a sensitivity curve for the Parallax sensor, and compare it with atmospheric CO2 levels.
    ·
    ········· Andrew: Posted the sensitivity curve graph to the forum (see above.)
    Dr. Allen,
    Thanks for the homework and thanks for your help. Please help our team understand what you meant when you wrote "...exhaled air is around 0.45%” (See answers to question #2.) Does our 5.33% seem accurate to you?
    Mr. Kibler ordered the CO2 sensor and the PCB board it goes on, and a new BS2e stamp for our ASP. They should be here by the weekend. What’s out next step?
    Your friends,
    The ARLISS Team New Hampshire Rocketeers
    Submitted by Mike, Dylan, and Mr. Kibler
    362 x 600 - 48K
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 20:25:48
    Andrew,

    Why did the CO2 sensor need to be a product of Parallax? A lot of the other parts on the ASP are from different companies, and I was wondering why we were steadfast in our decision to order the CO2 sensor from Parallax when other companies had had the product out before them.


    Awaitng your answer,
    Justin
  • Andrew (ARLISS)Andrew (ARLISS) Posts: 213
    edited 2010-05-25 - 20:35:25
    Justin Abbott said...
    Andrew,

    Why did the CO2 sensor need to be a product of Parallax? A lot of the other parts on the ASP are from different companies, and I was wondering why we were steadfast in our decision to order the CO2 sensor from Parallax when other companies had had the product out before them.


    Awaitng your answer,
    Justin

    Actually, all of the sensors on the ASP are *sold* by Parallax. None of them are made by Parallax. Additionally, buying a product from Parallax and using it on a Parallax product gives us a better chance of getting support on integrating them.

    Hope that clears things up.
    Andrew
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 21:16:12
    Dr. Allen,
    I see Mike, Dylan, and Mr. Kibler have sent you the answers we compiled in class in response to your homework. If the homework is acurate and compelted, I'd like to ask you what our next homework/step is that we can work on.

    Thank you for your time,
    Justin
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 21:25:35
    Dylan and Mike,

    I was wondering what (if any) different/new information you two and Mr. Kibler talked about today regarding the project (such as new terms and acronyms) while I was at track.

    Awaiting your reply,
    Justin
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 21:25:38
    Dylan and Mike,

    I was wondering what (if any) different/new information you two and Mr. Kibler talked about today regarding the project (such as new terms and acronyms) while I was at track.

    Awaiting your reply,
    Justin
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 21:27:46
    Andrew,

    Thank you that cleared it up. I had a suspicion that that was the reason, but I thought that I would confirm it with you.

    Justin
  • edited 2010-05-25 - 22:36:44
    Dr.Allen,

    Along with basically everyone else on the team, what would you say our next step is?

    Thank you for you help,

    Sean
  • sylvie369sylvie369 Posts: 1,618
    edited 2010-05-25 - 22:48:15
    I'd say carefully read the documentation for the CO2 Gas Sensor Module, and come back to the forum with whatever questions that raises.

    When that module arrives, you'll need to figure out how to get the BS2 to read the CO2 levels from it, and you'll have to do some testing and probably calibration. Do you have more than one BS2? It might be easier to figure out the module while it's set up alone on a second module, rather than while it's connected to all of the other stuff you have on the first module.

    How is everyone with understanding the rocket, payload bay, and recovery system? How about with understanding last year's device? Are the new people on the team up to speed on all of that?
  • Justin AbbottJustin Abbott Posts: 54
    edited 2010-05-25 - 23:15:49
    sylvie369,
    I remember a very quick and brief explanation of the rocket, payload bay, and recovery system from last year's device. Would you be able to explain it to me more in depth?

    Justin
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