Are there really too many of us?
ElectricAye
Posts: 4,561
.... or did everything just get shipped to Shanghai?
The article is about scientists but might this apply to engineers as well?
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m
The article is about scientists but might this apply to engineers as well?
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=does-the-us-produce-too-m
Comments
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"Some estimate that 30 percent of Chinese engineering students will not find jobs after graduation and that the average pay of the college graduates is now approaching that of rural migrant workers. At the same time, factories in Guangdong province cannot find enough labor."
You can read more here:
roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/educated-and-fearing-the-future-in-china/
And this instructor started the class discussing lawsuits. We all thought we were in the wrong class. He·finally said, "You want to know what it is like to be an engineer, then get used to being sued!" (He·owned his own engineering company and only taught the one class. And he said he spent more time dealing with lawsuits than doing engineering work!)
And then there is the sad case of Bell Labs. When I was a kid I was told you could get a lifetime job there doing research. Any research you wanted to do. No limits on anything. Free reign to do whatever you wanted...
Then the phone company was broken up by a judge (lawyer). I was sick when I heard this because I thought Bell Labs would be doomed. This seems to be the case. Look at all the wonderful accomplishments coming out of Bell Labs until recently. From the following link...
[noparse][[/noparse]"As of July 2008, however, only four scientists remained in physics basic research according to a report by the scientific journal Nature... On August 28, 2008, Alcatel-Lucent [noparse][[/noparse]Bell Labs] announced it was pulling out of basic science, material physics, and semiconductor research, and it will instead focus on more immediately marketable areas..."]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs
Financial aid isn't given out to everyone.· If you sent everyone to college and there were 50% scientists and %50% engineers then would there be cooks, waitresses, garbagemen, truck drivers,·warehouse support, etc?
Sadly, I think this has been the trend in much of big business. IMHO it's a result of Wall Street putting unbearable pressure on companies to provide fat returns in the short term. Wall Street got addicted to the impossibly-fast money, so they expect everything to perform at the same rate as their paper shuffling schemes. Much of the technology we enjoy today is the product of research done decades ago, back when there were lots of Think Tanks that actually did some thinking, back when nerds were set free to do what they do best. Nowadays I'm afraid there's too much economic pressure on much of what used to be basic research, but the Bean Counters know of no other paradigm and neglect to realize that many technologies take decades to mature.
Just another gripe I have against the financial world.
I can name a company that made a product and the shipping costs for that product became astronomical so they sold it to the French.
And I noticed that if I buy a product from China, I'll pay a lot for certain types of shipping but regular post is the same as if I got it from the US mail.· What is up with that?· It is almost as if they are getting a deal for the business or maybe it is subsidized.
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Innovation is turning ideas into money
Less and less is going into invention these days. Instead, the focus seems to be on the innovation part. Sadly, this has lead us to this horrible iterative product release process, where they spoon-feed us one innovation at a time, instead of just giving us what we want, then working on the next big thing.
The mobile phone industry is one that comes to mind. They have the capability to give us phones that will do what we want, now. Instead, they will iterate through 5 different handsets, giving us one thing at a time, and raking in massive amounts of dough in the process. Apple is inventing, then failing to innovate their product. While, everyone else in the field innovates off of Apples inventions, and fails to invent. Seems like a viscous circle to me!
Eventually, this lack of invention will catch up to "US", and the demand will then lead away from innovation back towards invention.
I also agree with ElecticAye, too much focus is placed on the bottom line and the investors. At some point, society forgot about people, and just started to focus on money. It saddens me, especially since I am getting paid the same amount as a new hire (even though I have 10 years experience) and choose (yes, choose) to stay at my company because of what we do, not because of how much I make. This is also one of the reasons I choose Parallax products (the focus on people, not money).
Of course, all this falls under the "IMHO" parsko blanket.
1 - The globalization of the economy.
2 - High levels of automation in manufacturing.
3 - Rapid obsolescence resulting from communication, technical and manufacturing advancements.
4 - An outdated and obsolescent economic model based on scarcity, while in reality we can produce far more than we consume.
5 - A political system that is controlled/manipulated by a group that has in essence become a new aristocracy.
I suppose that's a different question. But I also suppose that's what baffles me most: if there are going to be so many people on the planet, aren't they going to need lots of "us" to keep them fed, sheltered, and somewhere above sea level?
Well.... I was hoping we'd be paid, at least.
So will that be well done orrrr just medium well?
Nations and their people scale. We have things we can do that are of value both domestically and internationally, and our peer nations are the same way.
In this we all compete, and we take care of our own. We must realize an adequate measure of both in our labor, or we suffer the loss of stature and the accumulation of debt.
This is true for any nation, whatever it's strengths, as it is true for any person, in a community, regardless of their strengths. A single person carries this burden, consuming most of their life. A community distributes this, freeing time for progress. A nation scales up, in a similar fashion. Our numbers mean wealth, in that a greater measure of our time is for us to do what we will, not what we need, but only if we work to take care of our own, so we don't owe those who do.
So then, the idea that we have too many smart people is foolishness!! Think about it. The single person, working alone, must be smart enough to survive right? A few people can all work hard, or if some of them are smart, or are allowed to grow smart, can all be rewarded by innovation. This reward is time, and that time is wealth, as any business owner knows intrinsically.
IMHO, the biggest problem we have, as a nation, is we have lost track of how to properly value taking care of our own. No matter how smart people are, at the end of the day, material labor is required to keep everybody alive, healthy, empowered to be. That does not change with technology. What technology can do is lower the cost of that material effort, but not eliminate it. The burden must be carried, or people simply die, or grow poor.
The solution, in my book, is to do what it takes as a nation to produce more of what we consume here, pay people here, and that builds demand with dollars that reside here. As that demand rises, our smarter people will see that demand, and fill it with the innovation they are empowered to do. The return on that is the innovation that frees time, and that is wealth.
Rather than lament our smarts and our wealth in this, we simply need to work to exploit it, take pride in our numbers, and work to build for ourselves, exporting that which others need, taking in like kind, but in balance.
When nations do this in a complimentary way, each being rewarded for their strengths, their people grow wealthy, better able to compete and endure. When nations do this in an exploitative way, their people may grow poor, not rewarded for their strengths to a degree that compensates for the labors of the other, and cannot compete, and may not endure.
Edit:
Simple value is labor applied to materials over time.
Wealth is innovation applied to labor over time.
The common factor here is time, meaning wealth is having more of your time to do what you would do, over what you need to do to exist. Money quite literally then is time, as value can only be realized through labor, which also consumes time.
When we fail to properly value simple labor, we lose the great multiplier of innovation, leaving us much poorer than we would be otherwise, as insufficient value exists to reward would be innovators, quite literally starving our own selves, for our own folly and greed.
I know heady, but think about wealth and value in terms of time. We normally think in dollars, which can distort the real value of things, and that distortion leads to bad choices, which make us poor. --bad choices cost because they consume time, and this is as true on a micro scale, as in one of us making a mistake, or a macro scale, where a poor policy, or many small mistakes multiply up, reducing demand that is otherwise needed to reward our innovators, and make the nation compete as it should among it's peers.
Another Edit: Smile...
As we grow in numbers, we require innovation to keep the needs of our own at bay. That's the brutal cost of failure to properly value things. When we deny ourselves innovation, our burden to stay alive slowly grows, making us poor, and that drives all change, innovation, advancement, because we don't want to be poor! We want to be entertained, do, love, build, explore, learn.
There, I'm done now. That's why we always must strive to work smarter, not harder, because without the smarts, we will lose in the end, being simple hunter / gatherers, living to work, working to live. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
Post Edited (potatohead) : 4/16/2010 7:38:30 AM GMT
Yeah but... ain't it just a lot easier to throw Bill Gates on the BBQ ?
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
8x8 color 80 Column NTSC Text Object
Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
On the other hand, if you are training in nuclear reactor construction, you have very little competition. All the engineers have gotten old and either died or retired.
If want a steady job, become a chef, a barber, or a dentist (maybe all three).
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 4/19/2010 11:04:55 AM GMT
--> if you are able to work, then you will have a job. Public or subsidized housing, food stamps, welfare checks - no government help unless you have a job - either get one or one will be provided for you. Even if the government job means you clean the streets, paint bridges, help out in the schools, government run hospitals, fixing the public roads, or whatever - if you're capable of working, then everyone has a job - no handouts for working capable people, period.
--> hold someone accountable for spending $5B in Iraq each week. We've been there chasing WMD's that never existed - let alone the nearly 4,400 soldiers who've perished and many, many thousands of civilian Iraqi casualties. That $5B/week could have - should have been spent rebuilding the US - why isn't someone held accountable for this debacle?
--> if the people spending capital resources obtained via taxes aren't doing so responsibly, toss them in prison - end of story. If they can't balance a budget, then they should be sued - take every penny they own and donate it to balancing the budget, then put them in prison. If I had to borrow money just to pay interest on money I've already borrowed, the bank would throw me out - they wouldn't politely say "no, we can't give you a loan" How much does our government spend compared to what they "take in?" Think about it - yipes.
--> give whistle blowers 10% of every dollar they save the government - billions are wasted and nothing gets done - time to stand up, make changes, and get rewarded for it
--> eliminate legalized bribery, aka 'most' lobby money. If legislation is on the table, and I 'donate' $100K to a 'campaign contribution' for a member of congress, does anyone honestly believe there is no influence in the way that member of congress will vote on the legislation? Who's running the country? Do the ones with the most lobby money have the best interest of the general population in mind or are they merely promoting their own cause/agenda via buying the law makers?
--> Offer discounts for health care if you eat responsibly and exercise regularly. Certainly, with today's knowledge of health issues, nothing can prevent certain illnesses, but how many heart disease and so many other 'disorders" are 100% preventable when common sense rules are followed? Is it fair when conscientious people are forced to pay for the self-destroying lifestyles of others?
--> . . . I could go on & on & on . . .
From this direction I'd say there are not enough of us!
I'm on of two computer doctors in the community. (For about 6 thousand people)
Needless to say, I do stay employed.
I'm also considered the community "geek". There is one other diehard electronics geek.
(The other two are beginners that I've brought into the community.)
Technological desert here...
OBC
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I could not said that any better than that
·Also
potatohead
I·could not said that any better than that
I agree with most of what both of you are saying
I think we have some what lost are way as a nation and for me I hope that we find again
I would also say that if we keep spending all this money on wars and the like instead of helping our own·who else is going to help us
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·Now wanting to learn Spin· Thanks for any·
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Sam
Post Edited (sam_sam_sam) : 4/18/2010 10:07:15 PM GMT
I agree, but then.... uh.... take a look at this:
news.health.com/2010/04/15/insurance-fast-food/
In Georgia, where I currently live, only about 25% of jobs require a college degree, so why do secondary schools have such an extreme emphasis on pumping out 'college ready' students?
Yes, this may initially sound as though I am "anti-education" but no, I'm pro-education reform - in a drastic way. Part of my viewpoint comes from being in public education for more than five years. No matter what anyone tells you, there is a gigantic need to improve the system. And, ironically, it really won't cost much. Our school system just spent more than $1M to purchase, install, and provide training for SMART boards. This is fine - they're nice tools - sure. This is taking place simultaneously during an era when all salaries are being decreased, class sizes are being increased, and more teaching jobs are being eliminated as well. Do we need SMART boards more than we need anything else? How did we place man on the moon (sorry ladies), without SMART boards? How are the advantages of SMART boards going to supersede the disadvantages of larger class sizes? Blah, blah, blah . . .
I'm actually in favor of popularizing the devoevolution of education in some ways while going far beyond pedagogical methodologies and blasting into androgogical and heutogogical methodologies at light speed. I'm 90% Constructivist in my educational approach and I believe at least half of our public educated students are not being serviced adequately. Please, everyone should really study what happened to Chip Gracey. Here's a guy with, apparently, very little college but look what he's done!!! Look at those who he's worked with have done!!! You could say he's a fluke, a flash in the pan, or whatever, that opportunities like that, people who accomplish truly great things like he has done 'just don't happen any more'
Well, I certainly don't believe that at all - no! Consider the little blurb from the new Propeller book about Chip's bio: "His formal educational background is nearly empty, with all of his experience being the result of self-motivation and personal interest." Folks, this is what education SHOULD be about!!! Give me students, let me help them experience a plethora of opportunities - maybe, just maybe I too can help some of my students 'discover' a personal interest that they will then have the motivation, the relentless interest required today to develop exceptional skills that will put them ahead of their peers and only then will they will realize their potential is unlimited and they will become a true contributor, a real benefactor to themselves, their family, their communities and our society in general. I believe the coach from Arkansas is quoted as saying "Ability is what you're capable of doing, motivation determines what you do, attitude determines how well you do it."
Unfortunately, and based solely on my personal experiences, for the majority of students I teach, I believe it's true to say when considering their priorities, video games and other forms of entertainment are placed at a much higher level of importance than adequately developing personal educational resources which could or will provide for a bright, useful, employable future.
So, does this make me an optimist, or a pessimist? I like to think of myself as a dreaming realist. (ha)
And for the really bored, here are some links you may enjoy:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructivist_teaching_methods
And, . . . my favorite educators (from my personal web page):
* Ken Robinson --> www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
* Rick Lavoie --> www.ricklavoie.com/philosophy.html
* Chip Gracey --> www.parallax.com/tabid/791/Default.aspx
Post Edited (Scope) : 4/19/2010 12:40:27 AM GMT
Well, Scope, whatever your theories about education, it's great to know you actually care! My impression of school (several decades ago) was that most teachers could not have cared less. And what was worst of all: if you happened to not conform to the mind-numbing mediocrity, you were branded a troublemaker, a smart@ss, or whatever - and that went for both students and teachers. I think creative, intelligent people in all walks of life have always had to make their own way in this world because, let's face it, it's an ocean of not so bright people out there and it's easy to get pushed to the sunless bottom by the continuous tsunamis of indifference, stupidity, apathy, ignorance, fear, fearmongering, empty entertainment, greed, salt, sugar, and lard....
You make interesting points. I'm an engineering undergrad at Berkeley doing worse than I'd like to be (still decent, but that's on an absolute scale). That stems not from my inability to cope with the material, but, as you say, sheer laziness. I may enjoy the material because, for example, designing a CPU is incredibly cool, but some of the other theory bores me so much I do badly. Not because I know it, but because I'm not really interested. That's also why I waste epic amounts of time procrastinating. As far as I'm personally concerned, I do much better and am much happier working on the solar car electronics.
Two of my roomates are the video game types. Sleep, food, video games, watching sports and chain mail. It's pretty sad to me but whatever they want to do. I can't really comment on their academic performance, but their majors at least appear easier than mine.
Electric-
Especially here at Berkeley (and perhaps the times have changed as well) there's no limit to what you can do or have to (not?) conform to. It's great, there are tons of people doing amazing things. But still, many don't.
In general, I think motivation is a huge factor. Get people excited about something and they'll start doing it or wanting to. How do you do this? I would say have more showcases, poster sessions, exhibitions...across the board. There's so much cool stuff going on behind closed doors that never really gets out, which again pretty sad.
But to really find out what's going on and explore,there's just not enough time, because you could be working, getting paid doing other things, NOT innovating.
Rafael
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UC Berkeley '12 EECS
CalSol: UC Berkeley Solar Car
http://calsol.berkeley.edu
KJ6AWU
I'd rather have steady work than a job any day. The whole problem with job creation is that everyone claims they want one, but they don't really want the work included. They don't want to put in the hours either. Greed is the number one deadly sin, but sloth is in the list too.
If one is getting a mind numbing education, who's fault is that? Do something else or at least examine your learning objectives and what you personally bring to the classroom. You might even get more relevant career training in military service and better know what you want to pursue in formal education later.
Productivity is a personal problem, so is getting a good education. Consider Bill Gates, he dropped out of Harvard and it didn't seem to hurt his cash flow. Somewhere along the way, he taught himself enough to successfully find his way. Some of the most successful people I know are the least formally educated, but highly enjoy working productively.
It is only indirectly the governments problem. Of course, if you just want a job and don't know where to start, a university degree is handy. A business administration degree might be handier than most. And a degree in Fine Art (which I have) is a complete disaster. (I had to later acquire by exam an E.I.T certificate and an Enrolled Agent's certificate before I really had any solid backing in engineering and business.)
The real answer is to be master of your own fate and to do what you feel best provides for you. Meanwhile, at least learn to work with accountants, lawyers, and maybe engineers if you want to have your own enterprise.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 4/19/2010 11:44:54 AM GMT
Rafael,
actually my comment about the mind-numbing education was directed toward my public education in high school. College was anything but that and, for me, it was a place where you could leave conformity at the wasteland's edge.
If you find you're having trouble with some topics in school, don't worry about it too much. Do your best to learn what you can but allow the things that interest you to keep you charged. People in the working world know we can't all be experts in everything. But motivation is a vastly important thing in life. The smartest people in the world turn to slacker mush if they aren't motivated. And money only motivates creative people so far. If you're excited about solar cars, etc. then get involved with that and hopefully that will be something you'll have on your resume that you're really proud of, it will be something you can really talk about in a job interview, and that will make an impression far greater than a list of grades.
enjoy!
Mark