Dust collection system recommendation?

Ken Gracey

Hey all,

This Spring we're converting our Training Room to a CNC Router Room. We'll be putting a Haas SR-100 CNC Router (http://www.haascnc.com/news/new_files/DS_SRseries_US.pdf) into production for the solar products and robot base kits. The latter is wood, which means we'll have dust (and probably lots of it). The Haas SR-100 comes with an air gun on the spindle to clear chips and cool the tools, sending wood bits and dust into the air. No built-in vacuum collection system. And from my experience with a ShopBot, these things make sawdust. Next door is our SMT Pick and Place room, and the other direction is our CNC Milling Room. And, if it couldn't get any worse, the office area is on the other side! Sensitive uses surround the room, but they're separated by doors and isolated HVAC systems

The Training Room goes into a bigger location (Ste 200, to the right of the main entry if you are familiar with our building).

I'll need a solid dust collection system.

I'll probably put this machine between near the door to the SMT room and office.

What do you recommend? Any woodworkers out there who can give us some input?

Do you think these systems need to be vented out the ceiling?

Would you put it outside of the CNC Router Room, or can these live inside a building?

230 single phase or bigger?

Any links or input would be most appreciated.

Oh, and I don't like to under-buy tools - I really like to get the right tool the first time.

Thanks!

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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.

Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 3/4/2010 4:10:34 AM GMT

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Ken,

You might also consider a strong vent fan to the outside to create a negative pressure differential between the router room and adjoining areas. This will help confine any airborne particulates to the router room.

-Phil

Ken Gracey

Phil,

Would it have the same effect as moving the dust collection system outside of the building, and putting it in-line with the vent?

Seems like if I have a strong vent fan without a dust collection system then the dust collection system won't capture much dust as it would be mostly expelled from the room.

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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.

Ken Gracey

Seems like no matter how this sytem works, I must have a negative pressure differential between the CNC Router Room and adjacent spaces. Dust won't be able to find its way into the SMT, Milling or office area.

Heck, this could be a lot of fun. The doors could be sucked shut, people could get sucked into the ceiling, and we could conduct other vacuum-based science experiments in this room.

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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I guess I was thinking that the collection system was more localized, with a vacuum nozzle near the bit to collect most of it. A negative pressure system would certainly be sucking some residual dust outside, but the airflow would be minimal unless a door to the router room is opened.

-Phil

Ken Gracey

Thanks Phil. I think the reason this particular CNC router doesn't come with a vacuum hose attached to the Z-axis is because the rapid speed is about 2000 inches per minute. I could imagine that it would be difficult to control a hose mounted to the Z-axis with this kind of movement. It would rip itself into pieces pretty quickly during tool changes and rapids to the far corner of the table. It seems like it's mostly a "make a big mess, clean up at the end of the day" kind of system.

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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.

Martin Hodge

Gads! Just my opinion after having to clean out a former wood shop. And having lived over another former wood shop. Your best solution will be the yellow pages to find an outsource for your wood milling!

But if you're gonna do it you absolutely MUST put the exhaust outside to do it right. No matter how fine the final filtration stage is there will always be a talc like powder collecting on everything, unless it ends up outside! WAY outside.

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-MH

Tracy Allen

Hi Ken,

Here is a link to an active woodworker's forum where dust collection a a perennial hot topic:
www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=40&order=desc
Large particles settle rapidly and can be collected in cyclones and in bags, but it is small particles that stay suspended the longest and are hardest to remove, talking micron HEPA filters and scrubbers. Parallax won't be wanting to rain stuff on the neighbors!

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Tracy Allen
www.emesystems.com

TonyWaite

Seriously, I'd house the router off-site.

T o n y

Chris_D

Ken,

What you are asking for is VERY difficult to achieve.· I used to produce a woodworking magazine which was a video magazine distributed on DVD.· The video cameras don't like dust either and that became a problem early on.·

Here is what I used (and how) to help keep things (cameras) working...

Important concept #1, collect as much dust as possible at the source.· You will need to build, make, or purchase a dust collection shoe for your router that locates the suction right at the tool.· This is common on all CNC routers.·

Concept #2, it is not the amount of presure your dust collection system produces, it is the volume of flow (CFM) that matters.· More air flow pulls more dust through the filters.· Shop vacs can suck up a 3/4-10 bolt, but they move very little air.· Dust collectors move a lot of air through the filter which is what cleans the air.

Concept #3, the type of wood being machined will contribute to the type of dust you will have.· All woods that are routed will create both chips and dust.· Manufactured wood products such as particle board and MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) will create MUCH MORE airborn dust than hardwoods.

Concept #4, routing the ducting is a lot like routing a circuit board.· Provide nice smooth·bends at all corners and keep your duct lenghts to a bare minimum.· Use as·large a diameter as possible that will maintain·good velocity to carry the debris into the cyclone and filter bags.

A dust collector is only half the solution.· It will collect 80 to 90% of the dust the machine creates and with good filter bags will filter it down to 10 microns.· That remaining 10 to 20% of the dust floating around in the air will have to be captured with an air cleaner.

Here is the dust collector in my shop.· The one difference is that I have two filter bags instead of one.

http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=18221

I also have a shop made cyclone sepperator between the ducting and the dust collector. It seperates a substantial amount of material before it gets to the filter bags.

Here is the air cleaner I have hanging in the shop

http://www.deltaportercable.com/Products/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=11495

Aside from health issues (airborn dust gets into your lungs very easily), the dust is a mess.· I have never been to your building but I can assume it is clean and you folks like it that way.· The pick-n-place likes things clean too as it has a lot of moving parts etc.· The CNC room probably isn't "office clean" but probably clean compared to most machine shops.· Anything that is oiled (machinery) or wet will be a dust magnet and over time will "filter" a lot of dust out of the air - good for lungs, bad for machinery.

I would highly recommend you find a local vendor that specializes in this problem.· It took me about a year of experimenting to get to the point where the camaeras didn't need servicing (cleaning) every few months.· However, that is not to say you can't do this on your own and end up with a very effective system.·

Hope this helps you a bit with your potentially big, dusty problem.


Chris

TonyWaite

Ken,

Have you considered CNC waterjetting as an alternative process?

It's extremely noisy but dustfree.

At my local specialists I've seen them cutting laminated birch for furniture making: a clean, accurate process and a far better
neighbour with your existing equipment.

Regards,

T o n y

Ken Gracey

Hey everybody,

You're giving me some second thoughts, and lots of good solutions.

I'm going to sleep on this for another day or two.

What I didn't tell you is that the woodworking side of the product routing could be done in one day for a two month supply. So it only needs to run six/seven days a year on wood products. The rest of the time it would be cutting polycarbonate. I wonder if that changes any of the viewpoints above. If it does, please let me know. This is most valuable input.

Thanks,

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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.

Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.

Martin Hodge

I think it's even a better reason to outsource it. If you're only going to use it for wood that little, then the extra cost of the dust collection wouldn't seem to be worth it.

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-MH

John R.

As mentioned above by Chris, you're going to need two or three major components.

One is the large volume dust collector. This typically has the bags and a centrifugal fan. The fan can deal with "chunks" of stuff going through. This is a "must have" because just a cyclone will have too much dust going though. As mentioned, get as much "stuff" (dust and chips) at the source.

The 2nd "must have" is an air cleaner, kind of a "smoke eater" type thing, but specific for a wood shop. This takes care all the "air born" dust. There is no way around this. They are finding more and more evidence of health problems with wood dust, not just with the lungs but also cancer. "Processed" products (particle board, plywood, MDF, etc.) amplify this because of the adhesives and resins.

The 3rd "optional" component would be the cyclone. This is a centrifugal separator that minimizes the amount of solid material going to the dust collection filter. How "optional" and how "big" will depend on how much wood your removing, and how it's coming off the work piece. If your getting a relatively small stream of fine dust, you might be wasting time and money. If you're getting big slugs of dust, and/or lots of "chunks and chips", this is a great investment. They also make a "garbage can lid" version for the "in between" situations. These are just a lid that goes on a round trash barrel, and the hose goes through this before it goes to the dust collector. This keeps the chunks and some of the chips and dust from getting to the dust collector. The real purpose of the cyclone is to make the filter last longer between emptying, cleaning and/or bag replacements, at least in the volume of work you seem to be describing.

Now, the other way to do this, would be to fore go component number 1 (the dust collector) and put the cyclone outside. I'm guessing that this might not go over too well in California. What you end up with is the majority of dust, chips and chunks getting collected by the cyclone, and the balance going out the exhaust. Over time, you end up with a pile of dust that collectes from the exhaust. I'm guessing again that in CA, you'd have to add a filter system to the output.

Also keep in mind that wood dust is flammable. Add to that the propensity for static electricity to be created by the dust moving trough the dust collection system. This is especially a potential hazard with any plastic components in the dust collection system, and having some grounding wires in the system if you use any significant amount of plastic fittings or pipe.

I have no experience on how a system that works well for wood will (or will not) work with polycarbonate. If you're doing a significant volume, my first thought would be fumes, but I'm also guessing you're doing a better job of cutting vs. melting than some of us.

Depending on how much dust you produce, getting rid of this stuff can be fun (not). Around here (Wisconsin) it frequently gets burned, either as fuel for heating the shop, or just to make it "go away" (don't shoot the messenger). If the stuff isn't too fine, it can be used for animal bedding. Large volume producers can also sell for paper pulp, or back to the burning, you can get a press that makes "hockey pucks" that work better for burning as fuel.

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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log