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Propalot Propeller Computer — Parallax Forums

Propalot Propeller Computer

HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
edited 2010-03-08 02:01 in Propeller 1
Is this available or has someone posted a past project with this name?
The search comes up blank.

humanoido

Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/3/2010 9:53:25 PM GMT
«1

Comments

  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-01 22:30
    Wonder what King Cogathur and Lady Spinevere would have to say about that? wink.gif
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-03-01 22:38
    You mean the knights of the spinning round table?

    *drum roll* - Nice points humanoido, you have won the name 'propalot'. Congratulations!

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2010-03-01 23:03
    Too funny! yeah.gif
    jazzed said...
    Wonder what King Cogathur and Lady Spinevere would have to say about that? wink.gif
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-01 23:20
    Haha!!!

    Big smile – jumping up and down! Celebrating! The name is locked in!
    As I was sitting here thinking that's a lot of props and came up with
    the name of propalot (or prop-a-lot)... er.. Sir Propalot.. lol..

    The project is still under construction. Some background - there
    are ten dip props on solder-less breadboards (one is from my PE Kit)
    and one qfp on a prop proto board. This assembly is a test bed
    prototype for the following:

    1) one crystal
    2) eleven crystals
    3) download one at a time
    4) download all at one time
    5) assign unique IDs
    6) various connection schemes
    7) current ma consumption
    8) voltage threshold operations
    9) wireless functioning
    10) programming
    11) VGA, TV, Keyboard
    12) IR tests
    13) EEPROM tests
    14) different layout tests
    15) multiple randomness

    attachment.php?attachmentid=68236
    The beginning of a lot of props, about 11. Just setting up the
    layout here... had to add an extra breadboard in the back. In the
    front is a PE Kit.


    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    humanoido
    *Stamp SEED Supercomputer *Basic Stamp Supercomputer *TriCore Stamp Supercomputer
    *Minuscule Stamp Supercomputer *Three Dimensional Computer *Penguin with 12 Brains
    *Penguin Tech *StampOne News! *Penguin Robot Society *Ultimate List Prop Languages
    *BASIC Stamp Supercomputing Book *Toddler Humanoid Robot Project *Prop-a-Lot
    *Prop SC Computer - coming soon! *Prop IB Hypercomputer - under development
    *Robotic Space Program - waiting for warmer weather

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/1/2010 11:49:27 PM GMT
    392 x 521 - 41K
  • Martin HodgeMartin Hodge Posts: 1,246
    edited 2010-03-02 00:11
    Ah, so that's where all the dip props went! [noparse];)[/noparse]
    Where'd you get that mammoth breadboard?

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    -MH
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-02 00:25
    Shmoopy, I picked up two large solderless breadboards in Taiwan
    at a local electronics store. Only one was needed for this design.
    The cost was about US$7.95 each at that time. So now you know
    the markup on these boards.

    I also added a breadboard in the back. I was lucky to have one
    that fit perfect. It must be as old as the hills. I built SPO256 Speech
    Synthesizer circuits on it but later transfered it to a BASIC Stamp
    board for use in some humanoid robots. I really like using these
    breadboards as they are quick and easy for circuit building.

    I am thinking about connecting more breadboards together but
    that will need a supporting base and may end up as big as a
    table top. This will probably need some kind of stacking.

    humanoido

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/2/2010 12:33:44 AM GMT
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-03-02 02:23
    Where are the decoupling caps??? Otherwise you may have deceased lots-a-props!

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-02 03:19
    Cluso99 said...
    Where are the decoupling caps??? Otherwise you may have deceased lots-a-props!
    Cluso99: Very good eye! I just put in the caps 5 minutes ago! I have a mono radial .1 uf capacitor on each side of each prop chip. Now I'm searching for proto board connectors for the prop chip pins. Then I need to cut the Prop Plug pin connectors down to size, more permanently afix the labels, and start some wiring.

    humanoido
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-03 21:57
    Another Propalot day of work, mostly rounding up parts that could not be found.
    Cut the 90 deg. angle connectors with a knife but could only find the dual
    pins arrangement. The single inlines were not long enough to reach the
    breadboard connections. I seemed to survive the ordeal. Ran out of decoupling
    caps and finally found more. Started wiring the bus - will need to clean this
    up and cut/strip more wire. LEDs are wired. EEPROM resistors in their places.
    The focus is on nine processors. Any beginner advice? All the decoupling
    capacitors are in place, on both sides of the chip.

    humanoido

    attachment.php?attachmentid=68305

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/3/2010 10:02:26 PM GMT
    557 x 305 - 38K
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2010-03-03 22:22
    Looks like a job for Sir Bendivere:

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=658526

    Enjoy
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-03 22:54
    I'm just curious of how many IR LEDs can transmit and be rationally received simultaneously.
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-04 00:27
    ok... I just couldn't help it...

    Welcome to the legend and spinning tales of Propalot, here in the land of Camelotaprop at the Spinning round table. Meet King Cogathur and Lady Spinevere where the Holy Grail is only a Holey breadboard. It’s a place to be greeted by Sir Lancelotaprop. As the day passes, our assembly moves into the knight and Sir Bendivere takes the spotlight to show us some timesaving tips.

    Our resolution
    Unto this day, a prop is placed into the breadboard of stone, and whoever can draw it out shall be King of Propalot.

    Our code of chipallry
    • Never become upset at Sir Murphy
    • Always keep a cool Prop
    • Never be cruel but show project mercy
    • Uphold the dignity and honor of Castle-of-Parallax
    • Always let ladies go first, especially when arguing
    • Never fight the assembly or mix love with the soldering iron
    • When designing, always know what is right and wrong
    • Never quarrel with Sir Chip – the final word is in his court
    Everyone here is now christened a knight of Propalot.

    The Nobel Knights of Propalot
    Sir Jazzed
    Sir Dr_Acula
    Sir Hover1
    Sir Shmoopy
    Sir Cluso99
    Sir Graham Stabler
    Sir humanoido


    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/4/2010 12:35:26 AM GMT
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-04 00:43
    May we all eventually find peace on the Isle of Propalon.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-03-04 03:57
    @humanoido: I suggest you shorten the cap leads for decoupling.

    @Graham: I had one of those bending component gadgets. IIRC it was from Practical Wireless in the late 60's or early 70's. It was green. Now I just use a pair of fine tipped pliers. I am pretty good at working out the position on the pliers for 0.1" step spacing after many years of practice. Just like mechanics can set the sparkplug gap without feeler gauges as be extremely accurate.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-04 17:27
    jazzed said...
    May we all eventually find peace on the Isle of Propalon.
    Good one! lol.gif
    Cluso99 said...
    I suggest you shorten the cap leads for decoupling.
    Good suggestion. I'm thinking about transferring the entire unit to a standard chip board if I can find one to hold ten 40-pin socketed chips. I would probably do all the trimming at that time, if there is no serious problem from the longer leads on the temp breadboard. What do you think? Or will the leads create a kind of Jacobs ladder of electricity or antenna to receive world wide news?

    humanoido
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2010-03-04 18:02
    humanoido said...

    Our code of chipallry
    • Never become upset at Sir Murphy
    • Always keep a cool Prop
    • Never be cruel but show project mercy
    • Uphold the dignity and honor of Castle-of-Parallax
    • Always let ladies go first, especially when arguing
    • Never fight the assembly or mix love with the soldering iron
    • When designing, always know what is right and wrong
    • Never quarrel with Sir Chip – the final word is in his court
    Everyone here is now christened a knight of Propalot.


    Wonderful... [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    OBC

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    New to the Propeller?

    Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-05 02:27
    PropArthur PropUther Pendragon (Propeller II) is the self-declared reincarnation of Propalot's King Cogarthur.
    See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Uther_Pendragon
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-05 03:27
    Tip: While handling those lots of props outside of the court-yard, we must be careful where we open our bottle of mead, perform short rituals and spells of protection, call on the kings of old, and batten down the hatches. With the Council of British Druid Orders watching our tail, and after last year's summer solstice, even reincarnated Kings have no peace.

    boingboing.net/2009/05/03/druid-named-king-art.html
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-03-05 03:38
    Ha ha, this is all very funny! Are you watching Monty Python while plugging together the breadboards??

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-05 03:44
    jazzed said...
    I'm just curious of how many IR LEDs can transmit and be rationally received simultaneously.
    jazzed: this exact same question came up when we were assembling our Penguin robot soccer teams shortly after we popularized wireless IR transmission for Parallax Penguins (based on the BASIC Stamp IIpx boards) and then produced a youtube soccer movie.

    Edit: You might want to come up with some ideas. In the previous BASIC Stamp supercomputers, each one would take its turn talking and the rest would listen. I am not sure what will happen if they all talk at once. Chaos? Undoubtedly there exists great potential for groups of xmitters functioning at the same time. However, you'll need to receive all the talk at the same time. If parallel data passes back and forth this way, how to do it?

    humanoido

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/6/2010 12:08:32 AM GMT
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2010-03-05 11:34
    Although I obviously have no experience in the matter but I think the advice of not mixing love and soldering is sound [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Cluso, my Dad had the same thing or at least I saw a picture on a back issue which is what inspired my ghetto version.

    Graham
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-03-05 13:38
    www.montypythonsspamalot.com/ smile.gif

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    Leon Heller
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-06 03:06
    humanoido said...

    Edit: You might want to come up with some ideas. In the previous BASIC Stamp supercomputers, each one would take its turn talking and the rest would listen. I am not sure what will happen if they all talk at once. Chaos? Undoubtedly there exists great potential for groups of xmitters functioning at the same time. However, you'll need to receive all the talk at the same time. If parallel data passes back and forth this way, how to do it?

    humanoido
    Obviously they can't all talk at the same time and expect to achieve anything useful. The same problem happens on 10/100 Ethernet shared media. To get over it, CSMA/CD and CSMA/CA were invented. Wikipedia and this picture explains most of the solution. Since it may possible to listen and transmit simultaneously with Propeller using IR, CSMA/CD may work.

    440px-CSMACD-Algorithm.svg.png

    CSMA/CD en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_sense_multiple_access_with_collision_detection
    CSMA/CA en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_sense_multiple_access_with_collision_avoidance

    I don't know what you mean by parallel data, but single broadcast with multiple receivers is obviously possible.

    Post Edited (jazzed) : 3/6/2010 3:12:36 AM GMT
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-06 22:38
    jazzed:

    My idea is to get the method working so these IR transmitters and receivers could be programmed for CSMA/CA and CSMA/CD in the future. The question is, if two or more IRs are transmitting, how can one single out one and hear it correctly? That's because I want to have groups of props with IR transmit at the same time to their respective collectives. Using a Propalot example, One is a collective master that speaks to 2, 3 and 4. At the same time, Five is a collective master that speaks to 6 and 7. Eight is a collective master that speaks to 9 and 10. So it is possible that One, Five, and Eight may speak at the same time.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-06 23:33
    I'm afraid that with your configuration there can be at most 1 transmitter unless the collectives are optically isolated from each other. For example, there are IR receivers that work in frequency bands other than 38KHz. That might be worth investigating. In the "railgun model" discussed before, the method for moving the devices might also be used for communications via magnetic induction ....
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-07 02:11
    jazzed said...
    I'm afraid that with your configuration there can be at most 1 transmitter unless the collectives are optically isolated from each other. For example, there are IR receivers that work in frequency bands other than 38KHz. That might be worth investigating. In the "railgun model" discussed before, the method for moving the devices might also be used for communications via magnetic induction ....
    jazzed: One transmitter at a time, that can quickly and simultaneously access all remaining nine listening props will certainly work ...will need to study the amount of data that can be pushed through this type of IR connection.

    To optically isolate it will section it off completely from the others, which could be a problem when it comes time to share information results.

    Regarding the railgun model (Near Field Magnetic Induction technology) - communications via magnetic induction - will it be another challenge to isolate multiple signals?

    If multiple signals are possible, I like the ideas of using Near Field Magnetic Induction technology to secure wireless communication between two-way processors by creating a magnetic communication "bubble" around the entire collective. This magnetic bubble can have a radius of approximately 1.5 meters, is immune from radio frequency (RF) interference and is virtually secure from eavesdropping.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-field_magnetic_induction_communication

    It would appear that the IR transmitters and receivers could be replaced with coils. Is there any practical information on doing this?

    humanoido

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/7/2010 2:30:29 AM GMT
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-03-07 03:41
    >> Regarding the railgun model (Near Field Magnetic Induction technology) - communications via magnetic induction - will it be another challenge to isolate multiple signals?

    I'm just speculating here and I'm sure there are lots of challenges ....

    Assume for simplicity that you have 2 electro magnets (solenoids?) and you want to make a steel ball jump between the them. Possible?

    Each magnet is activated by a low AC voltage (12 to 18V). A different frequency may be chosen for each magnet to activate via a tuned oscillator. Only one magnet can have a "peak field" relative to the others at any given time. The "electro magnet interface modules" are all connected to the same AC power lines.

    Now set the electro magnets side by side with a relatively large steel ball on top of one. A microcontroller should be able to select the frequency to activate a given magnet via some electrical interface. The microcontroller should be able to change the frequency to alternately activate each magnet. The desired effect would be that the steel ball ping-pongs from one magnet to the other.

    Now, say the ball is on an activated magnet. Can the field be modulated at a rate where the ball stays on the magnet and a code can be transmitted via the field with a reasonable data rate? Are bi-directional communications possible at different frequencies by modulating the connection AC voltage at different rates?

    If this is possible, you can achieve locomotion and communication with the same interface. One question is how can microcontrollers be mounted on steel balls? I have seen encased ball bearings that may be suitable. A piece of plastic might serve as a travel medium.

    Assuming a system of 2 magnets would be possible, how many could be added for simultaneous use?

    Maybe it's all crazy speculation. Maybe not. Now you know what I'm thinking at least.
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-07 08:05
    jazzed:

    Very good and unique idea for locomotion, but for now, I don't think I will attach
    any chips to balls. I have my hands full trying to come up with a
    magnetic induction circuit for xmit/rx.

    The text states that the technique is very low cost and consumes
    very little power - maybe this is less current draw than an IR transmitter/
    receiver(?) so it shows lots of possibilities.

    I imagine the circuit would include a wound coil, a diode suppressor, and
    some conditioning components for transmit or receive. One text suggests
    only a short antenna. I will need to see more information.

    Time to break out the Forrest M. Mims III books to see if there is a
    suitable magnetic induction circuit.

    humanoido

    Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/7/2010 9:05:11 PM GMT
  • RS_JimRS_Jim Posts: 1,768
    edited 2010-03-07 13:50
    Humando,

    Could you do your multiple channels of IR communication by using polarizing filters?· Certainly 2 channels could work with 90 degree cross polar maybe 4 channels could work with 45 deg cross polar. Sat Tv uses polarized antennas in the LNB to minimize co-channel interference between closely spaced adjacent channels.
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2010-03-07 21:02
    Radio Shack Jim said...
    Could you do your multiple channels of IR communication by using polarizing filters? Certainly 2 channels could work with 90 degree cross polar maybe 4 channels could work with 45 deg cross polar. Sat Tv uses polarized antennas in the LNB to minimize co-channel interference between closely spaced adjacent channels.
    What is the full effect of polarization on IR signals? So the idea is to give the IR transmission some unique identity and other IRs have other identities. If this is accomplished with software, no parts are required. What is the effect of one 30 and one 50 khz seeing each other?

    humanoido
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