Chip said... Altera has developed a whole system of delivering customer-developed IP for their FPGAs. You can use, for free, 'trial' versions, which usually time-out after a few hours of use. If you decide you want to use something in your product, you buy a license and receive a version which you can load, but not modify (in some cases). They've developed quite an infrastructure to do this and it extends from their web site, through their tool system, all the way down into their FPGAs, which have the ability to load protected code. The feeling of the whole thing, to me, though, is 'tenuous'. I'd hate the idea of having to go through lawyers' hoops and then pay up for this and that. I understand that for Altera's end market, this might go over okay, but I hate the feeling of it all and have a gut-level aversion to such things. I want to feel like an 'owner', not some sharecropper with unknown and possibly capricious landlords. Almost no one offers an 'ownership' experience, anymore. The trend is away from it, but the human spirit, I think, yearns for it. This is why I can take no pleasure in fancy cell phones and the like. Even PC's and home-entertainment systems. You just pay to get started, then they roll you at every turn and track your every move. As if building houses on sand wasn't foolish enough, THEY own the sand. No thanks.
I am a newbie to electronics, Parallax, and the forums and I can definitely say with certainty that it's the forums, the free flow of information, the great
minds on here, and the free object exchange that has hooked me into this newfound hobby. I have some grand ideas and projects that I would
like to work on and there is no way I could do this on my own without all of the resources here.
If I had to pay for each step of the process, without a doubt, I would have given up on it months ago. I couldn't say how much money I have already
spent with Parallax but I would temp a guess that there will be much more spent in the coming months/years. From what I can tell, Parallax
has set all of this up so that people like me can get involved and those well ahead of me can further expand.
The free and openness of this place is it's greatest attraction. Sooner or later no one would share anything on here if each bit of code were going to
cost them money. It would also be a stopper for a lot of projects. One may be an expert at one thing and another may have expertise at another thing.
If this couldn't be shared freely, it would definitely slow the progress.
Thats my novice view...
PS There are other ways to commercialize a programming object if it is believed to be of such inventiveness and usefulness to the masses that you
have the potential for great monetary gain. If a program is of that magnitude, then maybe I wouldn't share it here.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ and so, the journey continues..........
Post Edited (eiplanner) : 2/16/2010 6:46:06 AM GMT
@eiplanner:· Yeah, I agree.· If not for Parallax and this Forum...what other alternative would we have?· I mean, we could go ARM, I guess, but it seems much more complicated.· Then, we'd probably need an operating system of some sort on it, like Linux (or ucLinux), but that might be·beyond our experience or desire, as nice as it may be.· Well, maybe eCos could be used, but still has a learning curve, I guess.· Other than those, we're rolling our own (or go without, of course).· What I like about the Propeller is that you don't really need a traditional operating system.· With the independent cogs and automatic hub switching (as well as no need of interrupts), it's almost as if there's an operating system built in to the hardware.· Well, not quite:· still need some objects (or write our own) to round things out, but, still, it's practially ideal (and we don't have the traditional OS overhead).· But, without the object exchange...with things like the SD object...I wouldn't consider the Propeller because I know I don't have the experience or desire·to write something like that: too low-level for me to handle timing- and protocol-wise.· But others have done so and fortunately made available here.· As such, we all have the opportunity to build on these things (including the Propeller) and make some kind of contribution to the world (or our neighborhood) in some way, whether a commercial project or just for fun.·
@Delus:· I'm glad you broached the subject.· From past experience on a similar topic, I figured the normally nice members·would jump all over you (maybe ban you for life!· You still can log in, right?), but we've had many good and interesting·responses and some funny ones, too (like "There goes the neighborhood!·lol).· Yes, thanks for asking about this.· Topics like this give the forum more "color" or perspective.· Such things are often enlightening, whether learning more from Chip about FPGA's or what have you, we always learn something interesting, which, for those of us without a lot of background in related fields/matters, adds to our understanding.· Thanks again.· --Jim
Post Edited (JRetSapDoog) : 2/16/2010 9:41:07 AM GMT
Chip said... Altera has developed a whole system of delivering customer-developed IP for their FPGAs. You can use, for free, 'trial' versions, which usually time-out after a few hours of use. If you decide you want to use something in your product, you buy a license and receive a version which you can load, but not modify (in some cases). They've developed quite an infrastructure to do this and it extends from their web site, through their tool system, all the way down into their FPGAs, which have the ability to load protected code. The feeling of the whole thing, to me, though, is 'tenuous'. I'd hate the idea of having to go through lawyers' hoops and then pay up for this and that. I understand that for Altera's end market, this might go over okay, but I hate the feeling of it all and have a gut-level aversion to such things. I want to feel like an 'owner', not some sharecropper with unknown and possibly capricious landlords. Almost no one offers an 'ownership' experience, anymore. The trend is away from it, but the human spirit, I think, yearns for it. This is why I can take no pleasure in fancy cell phones and the like. Even PC's and home-entertainment systems. You just pay to get started, then they roll you at every turn and track your every move. As if building houses on sand wasn't foolish enough, THEY own the sand. No thanks.
That's just the usual arrangement for evaluation software, modified for IP. Users are told about it beforehand:
JRetSapDoog said...
@eiplanner: Yeah, I agree. If not for Parallax and this Forum...what other alternative would we have? I mean, we could go ARM, I guess, but it seems much more complicated. Then, we'd probably need an operating system of some sort on it, like Linux (or ucLinux), but that might be beyond our experience or desire, as nice as it may be. Well, maybe eCos could be used, but still has a learning curve, I guess. Other than those, we're rolling our own (or go without, of course). What I like about the Propeller is that you don't really need a traditional operating system. With the independent cogs and automatic hub switching (as well as no need of interrupts), it's almost as if there's an operating system built in to the hardware. Well, not quite: still need some objects (or write our own) to round things out, but, still, it's practially ideal (and we don't have the traditional OS overhead). But, without the object exchange...with things like the SD object...I wouldn't consider the Propeller because I know I don't have the experience or desire to write something like that: too low-level for me to handle timing- and protocol-wise. But others have done so and fortunately made available here. As such, we all have the opportunity to build on these things (including the Propeller) and make some kind of contribution to the world (or our neighborhood) in some way, whether a commercial project or just for fun.
Relatively few embedded systems using ARMs can even run Linux. An RTOS is sometimes used, but that's completely different. Most applications don't even need one of those.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Delus said:
As a software developer myself I’m curious to see if anyone else would be interested
in seeing a paid object exchange with the release of the propeller II. I haven’t given this
too much thought yet and can see many technical issues regarding code security but giving developers the ability to sell their well refined code could encourage the undertaking
of more time intensive projects which would simply take too long to consider for interests sake alone.
How are developers lacking the ability to sell code? Why should they expect Parallax to?
Is Parallax lacking in code, or is code coming down like rain in a desert? Why does code need "security"?
I am not an advocate of removing the free object exchange we all know and love and I imagine
there would be a fee for developers wishing to use a paid service giving parallax the resources
to manage and maintain it well. In addition to objects this could also be used for distributing compilers,
debuggers, simulators. Any way this is just a thought and I’m interested to see what others think of this idea. The compilers and debuggers and simulators are already Free Open Source Software,
why shouldn't they be?
You may have a point there, I'm not sure such a system could work very well without some way of
still sharing source code which could make a mess of things. One thought I did have was still submitting
the source and having other's who use/improve your code pay for the use. This however wouldn't prevent someone from being less than honest...
I'm still interested in the idea but it would be quite the challenge to get right You want others pay to fix your mistakes? Isn't that backwards?
How are the ones who fix your code less than honest?
What exactly would be a challenge to get right? What is wrong in your thoughts?
By paid for I am thinking a few dollars per object. Not enough to replace anyone`s job but enough
to be an incentive to people who wish to develop code for the propeller. This would definitely have
to remain open source, as I don`t believe any amount of income on the developers side would make
up for building off each other `s ideas. We don't wish or need incentive, it's FUN and creative.
So, you think, if you drive a car, you owe an infinite amount of money to
the caveman who invented the wheel? and the one who invented fire, too?
Even if it is just a hobby or a toy car?
I currently don't have any code I would exchange for money for the propeller chip but the possibility
to do so easily would be nice. So you want to make us pay for code you might write someday after we make lots of free code?
Why not write and sell Windows or Mac or iPhone or IBM software,
or create a new platform to compete with them?
or get hired as a programmer by them?
Free code is nice. Propeller code is even nicer than Linux code. When I write it myself it does what I want it to.
This code you don't even have yet would be 'nice' if you wrote it and it was MORE FUN than my code
and you sold it in a Propeller Chip with batteries in a pretty little box with blinking lights on it.
Again I am not sure this could work and it would not have to be through Parallax but that would simplify
things for people both developing and using the code. How would it simplify things? Do higher rents and expenses simplify things?
Do thicker ledgers simplify things? How much quicker and easier will it be to write code?
I don't think charging for code use violates openness necessarily. It does in your case because you don't have any code to charge for.
I do think objects should be available as source not binaries and would not discourage use of others code so long as others are given credit where they are due it. Well, you could sell your source code on a disk under the MIT License with your name on it. Who are the 'others'?
I don't see why rewarding the hard work of people who contribute their code,
financially, is simply out of the question. Oh, So would you like to sponsor MY code? I can give you the number of my favorite NPO. Enter the next Propeller Code Contest. I may miss the deadline for this one even though I might win
if I complete it on time. I won't rush it because haste makes waste and I am more motivated by the project
than the prize. Why do you think that you can press to be paid for what almost everyone else does for fun
by those who do not get paid to do it? Were you a Major League Ball Player in a past life?
Simple enough, just embed a Paypal on your face-space-page and something like "donations greatly appreciated"
next to the URL when you post your code... if it is permitted.
I apologize if I'm out of line again, but this time I think all I did was illuminate ... the darkness.
@Leon: well, I had in mind things like the BeagleBoard or the Gumstix systems (which are both TI OMAP Core 8-based), as well as several other ARM-based systems I've seen that can run various flavors of Linux, often scaled down, of course. I've even seen a few capable of Google's Android O/S. Maybe it depends on the definition of "embedded" and "microcontroller," as those terms seem to be getting broader-and-broader in terms of what they encompass (with smart phones nowadays being basically like desktop systems). I'm new to the microcontroller world, but, yes, for lots of embedded systems (such as control systems), it makes sense that a traditional operating system usually or often isn't necessary or even desirable (and, formerly, wasn't possible/feasible). That is, for many applications, a single master control loop (perhaps with some type of time-slicing provision, if you will) will suffice, though it's nice that the Propeller lets us divide things up into eight independent cogs, isn't it! But when one envisions reading/writing an SD card, writing to an LCD display, generating audio (and not just tones) and so on, some type of organization from the hardware or low-level software could be very helpful, not traditional operating systems services, of course, but some kind of "assistance." Imagine trying to control the timing of a QVGA LCD if the microcontroller had no LCD controller, and, all one's program had to execute on one core in one main loop with or without interrupts (even with deterministic timing), and concurrently doing other things like scanning a keypad. I don't think I said anything about embedded, per se (though I probably implied it by mentioning a microcontroller), but, yeah, I guess you're right: I used the term O/S much too loosely and imprecisely. But the Propeller's eight cogs and automatic handling thereof and it's default SPIN interpreter (which is mostly software and can be swapped out) go a long way in providing what we need in a convenient way. This is just my first microcontroller (and, if things go well, perhaps my last one...particularly if the Prop II comes out), but prior to picking the Propeller, I read through hundreds of pages of ARM MPU documentation and lots of Linux stuff and some eCos stuff (seeking a simpler solution), but they add up to so much complexity (though complexity is sometimes called for). However, I do better when I'm more in control of things as much as is possible (except for some help for things like SD interfacing and so on), focusing on what I want to do rather than having to wade through what other protocols others have established. The Propeller seemed to fit the bill, and has proved itself thus far to be appropriate for me (especially it's simple instruction set and ease of interfacing). Anyway, apologies for speaking too loosely, and thanks for making me think more carefully (hopefully) about this.
Systems like the Beagleboard are really small computers, not micro-controllers. ARM7DTMI, Cortex-M0 and Cortex-M3 chips like those from NXP are MCUs, selling for as little as 65c a chip. They don't even have an external memory interface.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
I'm not in the boat that a paid object exchange would do me or anyone any good.· I'm more of a programmer than a consumer.· If I want some knowledge, I would buy Nuts and Volts and books on electronics.
I may buy components for my own projects but I feel that if I can't create it by myself then I don't want to spend money that would take away from my future purchases because I'm not rich.· I want to learn several microcontroller systems and I want to look at different chips so putting money out for the different programmers is enough for me.
I don't think we need a paid OBEX. Commercial software for the Propeller already exists. Hanno has a range of great products which he sells. ImageCraft has a commercial C compiler. There is nothing stopping anyone selling Propeller software... It just needs to be good enough and in demand that someone will pay a reasonable amout for.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Links to other interesting threads:
I bet that if Parallax hosted a paid object exchange, people would start becoming hyper-vigilant about anyone else using any portion of their code in some other object. It could spawn an environment of paranoia and scarcity.·Plus, Parallax would be placed in the unwelcome role of 'arbiter'. It could make things quite opposite of how they are now for everyone. To be able to contribute code freely, one has to mentally unplug from the scarcity mentality that is tied to money. Don't even think about it, or you can't do it.
On the other hand, I've always kind of liked the idea of software having a non-binding message in it that simply requests that any satisfied user would please send·$5·in an envelope to some address. Even that·could become ugly, though,·if it was overtly prominent or even slightly heavy-handed. Basically, it would be neat to seek renumeration on an honor basis, appealing to the good of people, without resorting to guilt or the over-wrought and binding lawyer approach that is now standard.
I have not seen the word "shareware" used here, maybe some form of that could be applicable. To think back and recall that Intuit started out as "shareware" program, yes it was for the MS-DOS systems.
Free exchange of code is one of the real strengths of the Propeller..
I don't see any good ending to creating a Paid Exchange.
However, How much work would it take to create a Paypal "donate" button option on the current OBEX?
I have had a Paypal "donate" request in my Propeller Cookbook which has done extremely well.
Not always with small donations, but folks who have sent hardware, etc. to do something nice.
I doubt that the entire community is large enough to support any author who thinks he is going
to retire on paid objects, but I'll bet an easy "send a couple bucks to the author to say "thanks"
would do just as well, and keep community good will.
Please Please don't ..... this would mis-represent Parallax, the prop and this community. Possibly leading forum users not being as supportive and helpful or as willing to post code snippets etc .
Regards,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
'Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.' 'Convince a man against his will, he's of the same opinion still.' ·
delus said...
having other's who use/improve your code pay for the use.
This however wouldn't prevent someone from being less than honest...
I'm still interested in the idea but it would be quite the challenge to get right
VIRAND said...
You want others pay to fix your mistakes? Isn't that backwards?
How are the ones who fix your code less than honest?
What exactly would be a challenge to get right? What is wrong in your thoughts?
...
No I do not think other's should pay to fix your mistakes. The idea was that they would make improvements and post those as there own object with a proportional amount of the revenue going to the original developer(s).
The bit about people being less than honest was meant to refer to people paying for someone else's code once and passing it off as there own with no reference to the original developer(s).
delus said...
I currently don't have any code I would exchange for money for the propeller chip but the possibility
to do so easily would be nice.
VIRAND said...
So you want to make us pay for code you might write someday after we make lots of free code?
Why not write and sell Windows or Mac or iPhone or IBM software,
or create a new platform to compete with them?
or get hired as a programmer by them?
Free code is nice. Propeller code is even nicer than Linux code. When I write it myself it does what I want it to.
This code you don't even have yet would be 'nice' if you wrote it and it was MORE FUN than my code
and you sold it in a Propeller Chip with batteries in a pretty little box with blinking lights on it.
...
First of all I have also posted one of my objects to the object exchange. And in all honesty it was looking at developing for things like the iPhone, X-box arcade, and blizzards inishative to create a market place for modders and map developers which gave me this idea.
From all the responses on this topic the answer seems to be a pretty overwhelming no. Which will not stop me from continuing to work with the propeller or the propeller II when it comes out .
PLEASE NOTE that it was probably accidental of delus (David) to misquote me due to my formatting , But his words not mine are quoted in black in the above post and mine in blue.
I quoted him to magnify that in my imagination he was playing the snake in the garden, tempting us with money
and the 2000-2009 decade's ruinous idea that "Sharing Ideas" is an intolerable crime that must be harshly
punished as if those who build together build pirate ships instead of ... um ... Freedom.
Aka Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
I do buy and sell chips but not ideas. I sell custom hardware including code on demand but prefer free projects.
I do not want to be compelled to buy and sell data and ideas.
If all of my ideas were accounted for, I should have a share of almost all electronics sales,
but IP trolls want to buy and sellrent out only ALL ideas.
VIRAND said...
PLEASE NOTE that it was probably accidental of delus (David) to misquote me due to my formatting , But his words not mine are quoted in black in the above post and mine in blue.
I quoted him to magnify that in my imagination he was playing the snake in the garden, tempting us with money
and the 2000-2009 decade's ruinous idea that "Sharing Ideas" is an intolerable crime that must be harshly
punished as if those who build together build pirate ships instead of ... um ... Freedom.
Aka Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
I do buy and sell chips but not ideas. I sell custom hardware including code on demand but prefer free projects.
I do not want to be compelled to buy and sell data and ideas.
If all of my ideas were accounted for, I should have a share of almost all electronics sales,
but IP trolls want to buy and sellrent out only ALL ideas.
edit[noparse]:edit:[/noparse] oops I did it again. Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is the general phenomenon that bothers me.
... When free things are taken away to be sold ... It's like slavery ... relative motion from Utopia toward Dystopia ...
I have to rant one more time on this subject because it's something I feel strongly about.
I am most definitely on the receiving end of the intelligence and generosity of all the great people on these forums and the OBEX so
my opinion may be overly one-sided but I'll share it anyway.
I remember being in college and wondering "When are we ever going to get to build something or make something do something?" Although
schooling is absolutely necessary, it's the hands-on that actually arranges all of that book knowledge stored away somewhere in your head
in a way that finally makes sense. To me, that's what this whole Parallax website is about. It's the hands-on with the added benefit of
immediate and intelligent oversight. A person can learn here as fast as their brain will allow.
It's the free information interchange that allows this to be possible. One can just read a few threads and see how many times small additions
or corrections are offered that leads to better projects and better programs even on the expert level. It's not just those like me that benefit,
it's the whole community. It's the number of minds freely collaborating that makes this site so valuable. Otherwise, we might as well all be
chatting away on Facebook or something if there's not going to be any real exchanging of technical information.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ and so, the journey continues..........
Comments
minds on here, and the free object exchange that has hooked me into this newfound hobby. I have some grand ideas and projects that I would
like to work on and there is no way I could do this on my own without all of the resources here.
If I had to pay for each step of the process, without a doubt, I would have given up on it months ago. I couldn't say how much money I have already
spent with Parallax but I would temp a guess that there will be much more spent in the coming months/years. From what I can tell, Parallax
has set all of this up so that people like me can get involved and those well ahead of me can further expand.
The free and openness of this place is it's greatest attraction. Sooner or later no one would share anything on here if each bit of code were going to
cost them money. It would also be a stopper for a lot of projects. One may be an expert at one thing and another may have expertise at another thing.
If this couldn't be shared freely, it would definitely slow the progress.
Thats my novice view...
PS There are other ways to commercialize a programming object if it is believed to be of such inventiveness and usefulness to the masses that you
have the potential for great monetary gain. If a program is of that magnitude, then maybe I wouldn't share it here.
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and so, the journey continues..........
Post Edited (eiplanner) : 2/16/2010 6:46:06 AM GMT
@Delus:· I'm glad you broached the subject.· From past experience on a similar topic, I figured the normally nice members·would jump all over you (maybe ban you for life!· You still can log in, right?), but we've had many good and interesting·responses and some funny ones, too (like "There goes the neighborhood!·lol).· Yes, thanks for asking about this.· Topics like this give the forum more "color" or perspective.· Such things are often enlightening, whether learning more from Chip about FPGA's or what have you, we always learn something interesting, which, for those of us without a lot of background in related fields/matters, adds to our understanding.· Thanks again.· --Jim
Post Edited (JRetSapDoog) : 2/16/2010 9:41:07 AM GMT
That's just the usual arrangement for evaluation software, modified for IP. Users are told about it beforehand:
www.altera.com/literature/an/an320.pdf
If the application is "tethered", one can test it for as long as one wants. Otherwise you can instantiate a function that tells you it has timed out.
It isn't as if an application that is in the field is suddenly going to stop working.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 2/16/2010 10:41:38 AM GMT
Relatively few embedded systems using ARMs can even run Linux. An RTOS is sometimes used, but that's completely different. Most applications don't even need one of those.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
As a software developer myself I’m curious to see if anyone else would be interested
in seeing a paid object exchange with the release of the propeller II. I haven’t given this
too much thought yet and can see many technical issues regarding code security but
giving developers the ability to sell their well refined code could encourage the undertaking
of more time intensive projects which would simply take too long to consider for interests sake alone.
How are developers lacking the ability to sell code? Why should they expect Parallax to?
Is Parallax lacking in code, or is code coming down like rain in a desert? Why does code need "security"?
I am not an advocate of removing the free object exchange we all know and love and I imagine
there would be a fee for developers wishing to use a paid service giving parallax the resources
to manage and maintain it well. In addition to objects this could also be used for distributing compilers,
debuggers, simulators. Any way this is just a thought and I’m interested to see what others think of this idea.
The compilers and debuggers and simulators are already Free Open Source Software,
why shouldn't they be?
You may have a point there, I'm not sure such a system could work very well without some way of
still sharing source code which could make a mess of things. One thought I did have was still submitting
the source and having other's who use/improve your code pay for the use.
This however wouldn't prevent someone from being less than honest...
I'm still interested in the idea but it would be quite the challenge to get right
You want others pay to fix your mistakes? Isn't that backwards?
How are the ones who fix your code less than honest?
What exactly would be a challenge to get right? What is wrong in your thoughts?
By paid for I am thinking a few dollars per object. Not enough to replace anyone`s job but enough
to be an incentive to people who wish to develop code for the propeller. This would definitely have
to remain open source, as I don`t believe any amount of income on the developers side would make
up for building off each other `s ideas.
We don't wish or need incentive, it's FUN and creative.
So, you think, if you drive a car, you owe an infinite amount of money to
the caveman who invented the wheel? and the one who invented fire, too?
Even if it is just a hobby or a toy car?
I currently don't have any code I would exchange for money for the propeller chip but the possibility
to do so easily would be nice.
So you want to make us pay for code you might write someday after we make lots of free code?
Why not write and sell Windows or Mac or iPhone or IBM software,
or create a new platform to compete with them?
or get hired as a programmer by them?
Free code is nice. Propeller code is even nicer than Linux code. When I write it myself it does what I want it to.
This code you don't even have yet would be 'nice' if you wrote it and it was MORE FUN than my code
and you sold it in a Propeller Chip with batteries in a pretty little box with blinking lights on it.
Again I am not sure this could work and it would not have to be through Parallax but that would simplify
things for people both developing and using the code.
How would it simplify things? Do higher rents and expenses simplify things?
Do thicker ledgers simplify things? How much quicker and easier will it be to write code?
I don't think charging for code use violates openness necessarily.
It does in your case because you don't have any code to charge for.
I do think objects should be available as source not binaries and would not discourage use of others code
so long as others are given credit where they are due it.
Well, you could sell your source code on a disk under the MIT License with your name on it.
Who are the 'others'?
I don't see why rewarding the hard work of people who contribute their code,
financially, is simply out of the question.
Oh, So would you like to sponsor MY code? I can give you the number of my favorite NPO.
Enter the next Propeller Code Contest. I may miss the deadline for this one even though I might win
if I complete it on time. I won't rush it because haste makes waste and I am more motivated by the project
than the prize. Why do you think that you can press to be paid for what almost everyone else does for fun
by those who do not get paid to do it? Were you a Major League Ball Player in a past life?
David
Post Edited (VIRAND) : 2/16/2010 12:29:33 PM GMT
do we really want or need p-tunes?
Graham
next to the URL when you post your code... if it is permitted.
I apologize if I'm out of line again, but this time I think all I did was illuminate ... the darkness.
Post Edited (VIRAND) : 2/16/2010 12:12:36 PM GMT
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 2/16/2010 1:35:33 PM GMT
I may buy components for my own projects but I feel that if I can't create it by myself then I don't want to spend money that would take away from my future purchases because I'm not rich.· I want to learn several microcontroller systems and I want to look at different chips so putting money out for the different programmers is enough for me.
I don't think we need a paid OBEX. Commercial software for the Propeller already exists. Hanno has a range of great products which he sells. ImageCraft has a commercial C compiler. There is nothing stopping anyone selling Propeller software... It just needs to be good enough and in demand that someone will pay a reasonable amout for.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
· Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
On the other hand, I've always kind of liked the idea of software having a non-binding message in it that simply requests that any satisfied user would please send·$5·in an envelope to some address. Even that·could become ugly, though,·if it was overtly prominent or even slightly heavy-handed. Basically, it would be neat to seek renumeration on an honor basis, appealing to the good of people, without resorting to guilt or the over-wrought and binding lawyer approach that is now standard.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Ray
I don't see any good ending to creating a Paid Exchange.
However, How much work would it take to create a Paypal "donate" button option on the current OBEX?
I have had a Paypal "donate" request in my Propeller Cookbook which has done extremely well.
Not always with small donations, but folks who have sent hardware, etc. to do something nice.
I doubt that the entire community is large enough to support any author who thinks he is going
to retire on paid objects, but I'll bet an easy "send a couple bucks to the author to say "thanks"
would do just as well, and keep community good will.
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
Regards,
John Twomey
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'Necessity is the mother of invention'
'Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.'
'Convince a man against his will, he's of the same opinion still.'
·
And the Basic Stamp, and to me, the very essence of what is "Parallax".
No I do not think other's should pay to fix your mistakes. The idea was that they would make improvements and post those as there own object with a proportional amount of the revenue going to the original developer(s).
The bit about people being less than honest was meant to refer to people paying for someone else's code once and passing it off as there own with no reference to the original developer(s).
First of all I have also posted one of my objects to the object exchange. And in all honesty it was looking at developing for things like the iPhone, X-box arcade, and blizzards inishative to create a market place for modders and map developers which gave me this idea.
From all the responses on this topic the answer seems to be a pretty overwhelming no. Which will not stop me from continuing to work with the propeller or the propeller II when it comes out
David
Post Edited (Delus) : 2/16/2010 5:52:38 PM GMT
But his words not mine are quoted in black in the above post and mine in blue.
I quoted him to magnify that in my imagination he was playing the snake in the garden, tempting us with money
and the 2000-2009 decade's ruinous idea that "Sharing Ideas" is an intolerable crime that must be harshly
punished as if those who build together build pirate ships instead of ... um ... Freedom.
Aka Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.
I do buy and sell chips but not ideas. I sell custom hardware including code on demand but prefer free projects.
I do not want to be compelled to buy and sell data and ideas.
If all of my ideas were accounted for, I should have a share of almost all electronics sales,
but IP trolls want to buy and sell rent out only ALL ideas.
Post Edited (VIRAND) : 2/16/2010 7:15:42 PM GMT
David
edit[noparse]:edit:[/noparse] oops I did it again. Please don't take this as a personal attack. It is the general phenomenon that bothers me.
... When free things are taken away to be sold ... It's like slavery ... relative motion from Utopia toward Dystopia ...
I am most definitely on the receiving end of the intelligence and generosity of all the great people on these forums and the OBEX so
my opinion may be overly one-sided but I'll share it anyway.
I remember being in college and wondering "When are we ever going to get to build something or make something do something?" Although
schooling is absolutely necessary, it's the hands-on that actually arranges all of that book knowledge stored away somewhere in your head
in a way that finally makes sense. To me, that's what this whole Parallax website is about. It's the hands-on with the added benefit of
immediate and intelligent oversight. A person can learn here as fast as their brain will allow.
It's the free information interchange that allows this to be possible. One can just read a few threads and see how many times small additions
or corrections are offered that leads to better projects and better programs even on the expert level. It's not just those like me that benefit,
it's the whole community. It's the number of minds freely collaborating that makes this site so valuable. Otherwise, we might as well all be
chatting away on Facebook or something if there's not going to be any real exchanging of technical information.
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and so, the journey continues..........