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future propeller chips

oakeseyoakesey Posts: 1
edited 2010-04-09 05:20 in Propeller 1
·I hear there was talk about them bringing a sixteen cog propeller chip out but they cancelled it because there would be too much silicon space.

·So i wonder if it's a·better idea for them to work on improving the propeller chip's capability to interact with other propeller chips in a mulipropeller divice.



·
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Comments

  • CassLanCassLan Posts: 586
    edited 2010-02-06 16:43
    I heard Chip talk about a high speed 2 pin serial connection planned specifically for prop<->prop comms in the upcoming Prop2

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  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,568
    edited 2010-02-06 16:50
    oakesey,

    Careful consideration has been taken into account for the Propeller II and there are several enhancements to the I/O structure that will allow for improved interaction from one Propeller chip to another. For example, the Propeller II chip will have 64 I/O pins (16 on a side), you 'could' place two Propeller II chips side by side and have a 16-bit wide data buss leaving 96 I/O pins to your imagination. That's one method ... another would be to use the built-in high speed ADC/DAC's that will be available to each pin. Here you can use a ternary, quaternary, or some other numbering base that has a symbolic relationship to the data being sent or received. See QAM type of communication... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_amplitude_modulation

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  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-02-06 17:36
    beau i thought the prop ii had 3 banks of 32 io pins?

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  • KyeKye Posts: 2,200
    edited 2010-02-06 17:48
    Actually we already have easy propeller to propeller communication.

    I started working on a DMA driver using Beau's high speed data link that transfers data to one propeller chip to another. The same cog that sends or receives data also updates the main memory with that data.

    The operation allows you to essentially have variables floating in memory that automatically update themselves in the background through·the use of two cores that constantly send and receive large chunks of each propeller chip's memory to each other.

    The technique requires only two pins abd two cogs. However if your data direction only goes up stream to the main host propeller chip you will only need one cog per transmiter and only one I/O pin. Of course the host will need a processor for every incoming data stream from another chip.

    By defining a section of data in the main memory to be constantly transfered to another cog you then have DMA which greatly simplifies the required coding.

    Note that I have not finished this driver yet.

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  • Zap-oZap-o Posts: 452
    edited 2010-02-06 17:49
    I just wish that the propeller cost less and I could learn the machine code. Other than that I love the propeller as is.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2010-02-06 20:27
    Zap-o the P1 is eight dollars. That is unheard-of cheap for a chip that can do what it does. Yeah, you can get cheaper CPUs but can you get one that can generate video, read a PS/2 keyboard, implement four RS232 serial ports, and do read/write to a SD card all at the same time with no external controllers?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-06 20:31
    XMOS? smile.gif

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 2/6/2010 9:00:21 PM GMT
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-02-06 20:34
    But where can we find an XMOS DIP-40 for $8?

    With a $25 (PropPlug) or $10 (SerPlug kit) programming tool?
    Leon said...
    XMOS? smile.gif
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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-06 20:56
    Granted, I was just correcting Roger's erroneous post. They are aimed at different market sectors, of course. I like them both.

    Leon

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  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,885
    edited 2010-02-06 21:37
    Actually, last time I looked XMOS itself does not come with any video drivers, you have to really on 3rd party code. And at first glance, the drivers that are available don't look anywhere near a complete set as for the Propeller...

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-06 21:44
    It has to do video in software, unlike the Propeller. Memory is limited, as well. It isn't really one of the applications it was designed for.

    Leon

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  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-02-06 21:45
    XMOS only has 4 processors, no built in video drivers in each processor, and a development kit with a cost that could make you go faint.

    The Propeller is a whole different system.

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-06 21:50
    Each core has eight 50/100 MIPS hardware threads that behave like separate processors. Switching between threads takes one clock.

    $100 for an XC-1A board is all that is required (1600 MIPS and 32 threads). Or, $50 for an XS1-L1 board from Sparkfun (400 MIPS and eight threads) and $50 for the XTAG-2 debug interface. I really miss JTAG on the Propeller; all the other chips I use have it, or something equivalent. I hope the Propeller II has a decent debug facility.

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 2/6/2010 10:00:47 PM GMT
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2010-02-06 22:33
    [noparse][[/noparse]/xmos]
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-02-06 22:53
    You cannot resist can you Leon!

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-06 23:09
    I was merely answering Roger's question. Perhaps it was meant to be rhetorical. smile.gif

    Leon

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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-02-06 23:34
    Oh shoot !

    Leon you hit that XMOS tender spot again.

    I don't mind they live in a different world. Problem is they don't have an OBEX, they don't have a chip I can start hacking with for 10 euros and they have a forum community that sleeps at night and is absent at weekends. Although I did have a nice chat with the boss, David May, over the post Christmas week.

    Actually I'm a little worried about the Prop II in that respect. There will be no DIP Prop II so I hope we don't need to be spending 100 euro on a Prop II board to get started with it.

    Post Edited By Moderator (Dave Andreae (Parallax)) : 2/23/2010 1:43:27 PM GMT
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-02-06 23:50
    Heater,

    I would not worry too much, I am sure I won't be the only one making DIP modules and development boards...
    heater said...
    Oh s h i t !

    Leon you hit that XMOS tender spot again.

    I don't mind they live in a different world. Problem is they don't have an OBEX, they don't have a chip I can start hacking with for 10 euros and they have a forum community that sleeps at night and is absent at weekends. Although I did have a nice chat with the boss, David May, over the post Christmas week.

    Actually I'm a little worried about the Prop II in that respect. There will be no DIP Prop II so I hope we don't need to be spending 100 euro on a Prop II board to get started with it.
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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-02-07 00:07
    I do worry Bill, by the time you have loaded up a little two layer board with a Prop II plus the switcher PSU for the core voltage plus whatever PSU for the other, IO?, supply plus whatever is need for clocking, decoupling and I/O connections etc, etc how can anyone make that for 10 euros?

    Look at the SparkFun XMOS board. That's 40 something euro and then you need the JTAG adapter another 30 or whatever.

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  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-02-07 00:16
    Actually you are right, there is no way it will be near 10 euro.

    Frankly, unless someone decides to sell it at a loss, P2 modules are likely to be $50+ - or even more, if one is really picky about including all the related costs (proto runs, testing, etc... fully burdened "wages", shipping, brokerage etc.)

    Too bad Parallax won't make a PLCC84 version with two 32 bit ports and the 8 bit "boot" port. PLCC84 sockets are still readily available.

    Maybe I'll only make full dev boards.

    Hmmm... this is really going to slow down Prop II adoption, as it really raises a barrier to entry.

    The only way I could see <$20 dip adapter modules is if Parallax decided to sell them as a "loss leader" to get design wins.
    heater said...
    I do worry Bill, by the time you have loaded up a little two layer board with a Prop II plus the switcher PSU for the core voltage plus whatever PSU for the other, IO?, supply plus whatever is need for clocking, decoupling and I/O connections etc, etc how can anyone make that for 10 euros?
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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-02-07 00:35
    It's a paradox isn't it. The technology gets smaller and smaller and cheaper and cheaper, the economics of the thing put computing power into mobile phones and hairdriers at an alarming rate. But if you're a kid wanting to play with these toys it gets more and more inaccessible.

    I contrast this situation with that of my father who, as a teenager in Czechoslovakia, was building tube radios for himself in the early 1930's at a time when few people around had radios.

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  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-02-07 01:43
    Propeller Proto boards are $25. I think the Prop2 Proto board will not be much more than that, maybe $35-$40? Maybe I am way off?

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  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-02-07 02:01
    I think Parallax can make a $30 Prop2 protoboard - but I don't think anyone else can (and still make even a tiny profit).
    Roy Eltham said...
    Propeller Proto boards are $25. I think the Prop2 Proto board will not be much more than that, maybe $35-$40? Maybe I am way off?
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  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2010-02-07 09:05
    Bill Henning said...
    I think Parallax can make a $30 Prop2 protoboard - but I don't think anyone else can (and still make even a tiny profit).

    I don't see that as a problem. As long as *someone* makes affordable tools. Of course the manufacturer is best positioned to do that.

    <edit> Changed the wording to make a vaguely coherent sentence </edit>

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    Post Edited (BradC) : 2/7/2010 9:11:10 AM GMT
  • dMajodMajo Posts: 855
    edited 2010-02-07 09:16
    Sorry for a little hijack of the thread, but I cannot resist

    It's·past more than one month by now (almost two): I haven't anymore the chalk but still I cannot load the foot because I have the iron wires inn. I walk·by using crutches.


    I am happy to find my old, well known forum, nothing changed:
    - still waiting for Prop II confused.gif
    - still Leon promoting XMOS·smilewinkgrin.gif
    - still the community being angry over Leon lol.gif


    Thank you Parallax, thank you forum community
    Thank you all, guys, to be there (here - depends from the point of view)

    Sincerely
    dMajo

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  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-02-07 10:34
    Bill

    Every time I mention PLCCxx it usually gets a reception that is only just warmed up from that of the X****.

    It might be big and ugly, but that would suit my fingers, and me.




    dMajo

    fantastic to see those X-ray pics. Did they do it for you. or was it some tinned copper wire you had in the workshop ??

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    Post Edited (Toby Seckshund) : 2/7/2010 10:41:00 AM GMT
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-07 11:06
    dMajo:

    I merely answered Roger's question: "Yeah, you can get cheaper CPUs but can you get one that can generate video, read a PS/2 keyboard, implement four RS232 serial ports, and do read/write to a SD card all at the same time with no external controllers?".

    Perhaps all the hoo-hah could have been avoided if I'd just said "Yes!"

    Leon

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    Post Edited (Leon) : 2/7/2010 11:12:23 AM GMT
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2010-02-07 14:08
    @dMajo: Ohhhh..... That had to hurt. :-(

    @Leon: Is your special chip cheaper then a Prop? You knew an argument would arise out of saying that.
    XMOS: eXtremely Must Omit Subject. smile.gif

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-02-07 14:41
    It's cheaper! It doesn't really compete with the Propeller, it's intended for high-end professional applications.

    Leon

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  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2010-02-07 15:01
    Leon, while the cheapest XMOS chip is about the same price as the P8X32A, I see nothing in any of their documentation that suggests it is capable of generating NTSC video without a lot of external help. Also, that clock it takes to switch tasks would make a lot of stuff that is done easily on the Prop a lot harder, if it is possible at all.
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