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Need someone to lay out a prop based pc board — Parallax Forums

Need someone to lay out a prop based pc board

StevenRStevenR Posts: 13
edited 2010-02-03 02:17 in Propeller 1
I've drawn the schematic for my circuit using Express PCB and I'm looking for someone who hires themselves out to do the board layout.

The circuit is basically a propeller with a max 232, an sd card, and a 5v regulator. All chips will be DIP on a 2.5 x 3.8 inch board.

Please pm me with your rates.

Tnx,

Steven.

Comments

  • mikedivmikediv Posts: 825
    edited 2010-02-01 21:18
    Steve dosent Xpress PCB do that for you?
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-02-01 22:39
    I needed to do this a few years ago so I taught myself. It has saved thousands of dollars so far. While the memory was still fresh I wrote it up here www.instructables.com/id/Professional-PCBs-almost-cheaper-than-making-them-/

    I can take a design from schematic to email to fab house in an evening but faster=more chance of mistakes. My last dracblade board (sent off last night) sat on my computer for a week while I tweaked various things (like adding pads for 3 different types of regulators). It is all the little extras that you mustn't forget - the power plug, the 4 mounting holes, the fat tracks for power supply traces, the decoupling capacitors.

    Can you post the schematic?

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2010-02-01 22:56
    ExpressPCB does not do auto placement and auto routing. What do you what for free. tongue.gif

    It will refer back to the·schematic and show you the nets that you have created, which makes it somewhat easier to to lay the board out. But you still have to do the physical placement and routing.

    Jim
    mikediv said...
    Steve dosent Xpress PCB do that for you?
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2010-02-02 01:10
    hover1 -- yes, and it's just as well because you usually need to tweak autorouted boards anyway. I like ExpressPCB's service, especially the miniboards which are cheap and tend to arrive two or three days after you order them. It's really not worth the hassle of keeping the stuff around to make your own boards.
  • StevenRStevenR Posts: 13
    edited 2010-02-02 01:23
    I tried to do the layout myself and got very frustrated. I never excelled in mechanical drawing. Couldn't visualize objects very well. Probably why I choose to be an EE and not an ME.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-02-02 01:30
    FWIW: I have never used an autorouter even though I have had legal access to the software. I always lay the parts and tracks myself.

    StevenR: You could PM me to discuss.

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
  • mikedivmikediv Posts: 825
    edited 2010-02-02 01:33
    Ok but correct me if I am wrong I thought most of the fab houses gave out free software so you can easily have your boards made. I have never done it and really want to. I have Eagle Pro and while I have drawn all my schematics I do not know how to get the program to make the gerber ?? files I agree with you Steve I have a quite a few projects I would love to have made into boards if I could get the layouts done. DR_A I was wondering if I posted my schematics do you have the software that would make the board layouts that the fab houses need?
    Also I know I asked this before but do any of those companies take just schematics and maybe charge an extra fee to make your boards from those??
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2010-02-02 01:38
    mikediv said...

    Also I know I asked this before but do any of those companies take just schematics and maybe charge an extra fee to make your boards from those??

    I think you are missing an important step in the concept. It's not just a matter of converting a schematic into a board. You need to deal with all sorts of variables that will help define the layout. Current capacity of tracks, board sizes, mounting holes, component styles/variants, logical block separation (keep your analogues away from your digitals if noise is likely to be a problem).. and a whole host of other things. It's something you get better at with practice, but unless you are *very* specific about exactly what you want, getting someone else to lay your design out for you is likely to lead to frustration and disappointment.

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    Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-02-02 01:48
    StevenR designing PCB from peoples specs and schematics is one of the many things I do. I can do this for you. I use eagle though so I would provide you with full gerber files so any fab shop could make for you. I also do surface mount assembly for prototypes and small runs.

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    24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.

    If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-02-02 01:53
    mikediv. Yes there are fab shops and companies like mine that will take a schematic and convert to Gerber or PCBs. You will pay a lot since it must be done by a person with a grasp of what you are trying to do.

    Making a PCB is more then just laying coper from point A to point B. You need to understand how much current traces can handle. how the current will flow through the circuit. how to sheild signals. and as frequencies get higher how the traces act as components.

    On a 10GHz amplifier circuit I built once half the components used where no more then the shape of the traces themselves.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.

    If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
  • KenBashKenBash Posts: 68
    edited 2010-02-02 02:05
    StevenR

    Go ahead and do your own board layout! It's not as difficult as you may think. I've been using Express PCB for several years now and unless your circuit is really strange, if you read up on the circuit layout tips and keep those things in mind, it is pretty easy to do. Expect to do a couple of "Patches" and layout iterations, but at $59.00 you'll probably save yourself time AND money over hiring someone else to do it!

    If you can draw the schematic... you can also do the layout.


    By the way, Circuit board assembly, even of all surface mount components isn't as difficult as you might think either. You WILL probably have a bad connection or two, but if you're systematic about assembly and testing ( get good power first, then add the propeller, test it, add some more chips, test them, etc ) you will wind up with good boards faster than you might have using an outside builder. Then let Screaming Circuits assemble the production boards for you once you're ready to rock!

    Good luck!

    Ken B.

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    " Anything worth doing... is worth overdoing. "

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  • mikedivmikediv Posts: 825
    edited 2010-02-02 02:22
    Hey Ken what do you use for the layout software becuase if I understand Hover he said Express PC will not do it?? also if you don't mind me asking is screaming circuits a company if it is can you share details with us? Thanks man
    Ever since I became a Parallax customer I am just awed at some of the boards the guys have been building here and I have many designs of my own that I would love to have made into actual circuit boards, The whole process just seems a bit overwhelming but you are correct
    others are doing it so it must be possible
    Thanks
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2010-02-02 03:03
    Express PCB has 2 modules. Schematic layout and PCB layout. The schematic is just that, you design it and give the pins and connects nets, or connections. Then you have to start up the PCB layout software and·start placing your components and traces by hand. The net helper will show you the connections between components that you made on your schematic, and help you route your traces.

    Think of it as an engineer designing a chassis (schematic). He can design a great chassis on CAD and print out the design. Then a fabricator has to take that design and actually build it (PCB Layout). Each person has to have the ability to do each proccess well. Not everyone can do both but many can do both with practice.

    Jim
    mikediv said...
    Hey Ken what do you use for the layout software becuase if I understand Hover he said Express PC will not do it?? also if you don't mind me asking is screaming circuits a company if it is can you share details with us? Thanks man
    Ever since I became a Parallax customer I am just awed at some of the boards the guys have been building here and I have many designs of my own that I would love to have made into actual circuit boards, The whole process just seems a bit overwhelming but you are correct
    others are doing it so it must be possible
    Thanks
    Post Edited (hover1) : 2/2/2010 3:08:50 AM GMT
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-02-02 04:10
    If you want something "right now", there are offers above.

    If you want to learn, I can say there are a few people over at the picaxe forum who have wanted to make their own boards and we have taken them through the process. It isn't that hard and there are some great Instructables showing you step by step. Start simple. Put a resistor and a capacitor on a schematic, join them, go to board view, move the components to the middle of the board, run the autorouter, and it is done in about 10 seconds. Then about 20 seconds more to turn that into gerbers. Then start making more complicated boards.

    I've the opposite of some of the comments above - I always use the autorouter. I put everything on a large board, autoroute, note the number of vias, ripup, put the components closer, autoroute, note the number of vias, and when the autorouter is taking > about 2 minutes, and/or the via count is getting out of hand, that is the smallest possible board so time to send it off to get made.

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller

    Post Edited (Dr_Acula) : 2/2/2010 4:27:22 AM GMT
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-02-02 17:18
    I just do not see how it could be expected for another person to do the layout, from a schematic. Bits would be plonked down in the simplest form, leaving not one thing in the right place (unless you want a pcb directly wired and supported by those wires. Real stuff like the mounting holes and the conectors to the outside world are literals that have to be worked around.

    I really must take the plunge and send off some boards to commercial fabs, to get those wonderful through plated holes.



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    Style and grace : Nil point
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-02-02 17:37
    Toby, Back in early 80's the Marconi Radar Company in Chelmsford had a whole department of young girls designing PCBs.

    They would have the schematics we had prepared plus all the data sheets for the parts we were using.
    Then they had the required physical spec of the board, size, shape, position of connectors etc. This itself came from another department full of draughtsmen.
    Then they had a few clues from us regarding layout.

    The layout was done manually using black sticky tape on transparent film over a light box. Double sided, so two sheets.

    My first ever real-world project went through that process and came out working !

    Amazingly, they used to get things like 3D Radars and SeaWolf missiles built that way.

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2010-02-02 19:03
    Yes, the physical layout was farmed out for the most part back in the 70's and 80's. The layout were done 2x-10x size on light tables using blue tape for traces on on side and red tape for the other side. These were then photographically reduce to final production size using filters to segregate the different layers. Most people producing the schematics did not have the hardware to support this kind of production.

    When I worked for Gerber back in the 80's, most of my time was spent servicing Service Bureaus that did nothing but this work. They had our PC800 board design station that did 8 layer boards, (@ $50,000 each!), and a variety of our Photoploters that started at $50,000 and went up to $750,000. They either designed from scratch on the sceen, or digitized exsisting artwork on our 36" x 48" table.

    Now you can do the same thing for free software and a laser printer! Times have changed.

    Jim
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2010-02-02 20:17
    heater said...
    Toby, Back in early 80's the Marconi Radar Company in Chelmsford had a whole department of young girls designing PCBs.

    You were in Chelmsford/Lowell ? Cool. I went there often in the early 90's.

    Looks like the Wang building is gone now; you can still see the big W footprint at US3 & US495 though.
    I used to enjoy going to the "Tree Top" steakhouse in Nashua New Hampshire just up the road.

    Sorry for OT. It's a just small world sometimes.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-02-03 02:17
    Ah, the old red and blue tape - brings back memories. Then came black and pin-registered layers. Not sure if I kept some for nostalga or threw them out in the 2000 moving cull.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
    · Prop OS: SphinxOS·, PropDos , PropCmd··· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBlade Props: www.cluso.bluemagic.biz
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