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Suggestions --> Ceiling Mounted Rail System — Parallax Forums

Suggestions --> Ceiling Mounted Rail System

ScopeScope Posts: 417
edited 2010-02-16 12:18 in Robotics
Hello,

I teach in a public high school and I'm considering making a robotic system that would enable me to send and receive hard-copy documents to & from students in my classroom. The floorplan is something like what's in the image below. I'd like any suggestions for a ceiling mounted rail system. I was thinking that when the robot moves over the workstation where a document would be either delivered or received, a container of some sort would deploy down to accompany the transaction - thinking winch here. Also, it seems like the system should be close to the ceiling for stability issues. The ceiling height is ~10', and 2'x2' ceiling tiles are installed.

Is this necessary? Of course not. Could it be educational & entertaining? Absolutely! [noparse];)[/noparse]

Thanks,

Scope

Post Edited (Scope) : 2/1/2010 8:45:50 PM GMT
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Comments

  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2010-01-31 17:26
    Cool idea, lots of work. Any reason a ground-based rolling robot programmed to make the rounds wouldn't work? Much easier. Pretty much an inbox basket on wheels. Could be as big or small as you like.

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  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2010-01-31 18:22
    If the ceiling is the suspended type with a grid and tiles you are not allowed to attach to the grid or its supporting wires but must provide your own support from the structure above the ceiling.

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  • ScopeScope Posts: 417
    edited 2010-01-31 18:36
    erco,

    I agree the floor-based system would most likely be easier & quicker to create - very good observation, thanks. My wife said the same thing - great minds think alike.

    Franklin/Stephen, I don't see why I couldn't attach something through the tiles. I could buy the tiles, drill holes in them, and perhaps create a structure that would support something like this sketch below.

    The overhead system may never come to pass, but it's a joy to contemplate.

    Thanks for the comments.
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  • DufferDuffer Posts: 374
    edited 2010-02-01 01:46
    Nice sketch, but it seems to me that a mono-rail system would be a lot simpler to impliment.
    Duffer

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  • P!-RoP!-Ro Posts: 1,189
    edited 2010-02-01 03:19
    Like how you say it's a joy to contemplate--kinda reminds me of myself! Try talking to the school welding shop, more than likely they'll have an idea, and you should be able to get some kids to build it for you, too!

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  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-02-01 04:04
    I think a simpler and more flexible system would be to use a setup similar to a CNC gantry or a overhead gantry crane (like in factories). Two rails along opposite walls with a beam connecting across, then a "car" attached to the beam in such a way that it can move back and forth along the beam. This will get you to any X/Y location in the room. Then you just put something on the car to lower/raise the documents.

    The rails and beam don't need to contain any electronics or motors, just some bearings. The car can contain all the motors and electronics. It could just move itself to one of the rails, pressing a wheel against the rail and using that to move the beam back and forth across the room.

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  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-02-01 04:05
    Scope said...

    I don't see why I couldn't attach something through the tiles. I could buy the tiles, drill holes in them, and perhaps create a structure that would support something like this sketch below.

    It's not that you "can't", but that "your not allowed to", per most building codes. Anything that looks like it's part of the ceiling, or attached to it, is "supposed" to be supported on it's own. The ceiling grid should hold the ceiling, and nothing more.

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    John R.
    Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2010-02-01 14:31
    Dude, you've got students for that sort of thing. Sometimes, just because you COULD automate something, doesn't mean you SHOULD automate something.

    Just a thought.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2010-02-01 18:24
    I'd choose a lightweight gantry-style X/Y system using steppers to minimize cost, complexity and mass. Given the red tape of school districts you need to keep it really simple and install it on a weekend once you've tested the concept. Ask for forgiveness later. It's probably unusual for school facilities to have such a request from a teacher - nobody is going to want to take responsibility or make a decision to approve your project due to liability, permits, etc.

    Take a serious look at http://www.8020.net/ - give them a ring and ask if they have any motor attachment ideas for conveyance systems. With an X/Y gantry you'll have far more flexibility if the desk arrangement changes, or if you choose to use the airborne drop-off in a different capacity than currently envisioned.

    - Ken
  • ScopeScope Posts: 417
    edited 2010-02-01 20:40
    Wow, thanks for the comments & suggestions!

    Although unaware of this beforehand, I concur, the ceiling mounted system will inevitably clash with building code, or a similar "red tape" issue.

    So, I was thinking of using either a helium balloon system to retrieve & deploy documents - something that would hover about six inches below the sprinklers. At my stage of robotics, this seems doable, but incredibly difficult and seemingly unreasonable to pull off. Incorporating a set height from the ceiling while payload changes take place seems like an enormously difficult issue to deal with.

    A wall mounted system has also been in consideration.

    There is one more factor worthy of consideration: in this 9' 6" ceiling height room, there are two floor to ceiling columns in the center section of the floor plan. These columns could be either a hindrance or a boon to a wall & column only mounted system (see revised image below).

    I've also considered a tube system utilizing containers and compressed air to transport doc's. It's somewhat complex and looks like a large polymer octopus on steroids - also has many unknowns to be resolved - perhaps another formidable challenge.

    If I go with a floor traveling vehicle of some sort, I would want to make it a really good one but that seems somewhat blase compared to some other, more interesting systems. I have an unlimited budget for this, so, throw more great ideas at me.

    Thanks again,

    Scope
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  • DufferDuffer Posts: 374
    edited 2010-02-01 21:57
    Using your last drawing as a reference, attach risers to the back of each workstation module that would support a horizontal I-Beam or monorail system. A loop (not closed) could·give you access to the·workstations in the center of the room. Mounting the track system to the walls and the center posts would also work, I guess.

    You might research track lighting component Mfrs for ideas on the actual rails for your system. Many of them have systems that will deliver low voltage (12V DC) to the track pieces which would solve the problem of powering your "car(s)". They've already done the engineering for the rails (straight and curved), electrical connections between rails, AC to DC electronics, etc.

    Duffer

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  • CannibalRoboticsCannibalRobotics Posts: 535
    edited 2010-02-01 23:04
    Unistrut!
    Cheap, pre-drilled and mostly available in the electrical department at Lowes or Home Depot. The nice thing about it is that it is designed to hang from all-thread.
    http://store.eberliron.com/products/unistrut_parts/unistrut_trolley_assemblies sells trolley's for them.
    The XY idea is perfect but if those are wireways coming up out of the top of the island workstations, that will be a bit harder.
    OR, use the island as the center of a radial system. You could also do a set of channels that have handoff points; right; left; center, back of the room.
    Cool Project!

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  • BocephusBocephus Posts: 58
    edited 2010-02-02 01:24
    How about connecting your tracking around the two columns making a complete oval system. Make a device to ride around the track that includes a telescopic boom with a basket on the end. Stop at the correct angle for each station, extend the boom the correct distance based on station location, and return.
  • ScopeScope Posts: 417
    edited 2010-02-02 01:48
    These are superb comments . . . I'm getting more excited about this . . . I might start out simple, where Phase I involves a system connecting the student central workstation area with my desk and then build a larger system beyond. The linear distance is about 14 feet from my workstation to the cabinet top in the middle - this could utilize a single, straight track.

    I think it would look cool to have a bungee type of drop that, when fully descended to the stopping point, would then free fall about 1/2 inch onto an electromagnetic joining system with alignment correction. The retrieval process would involve a similar, opposite effect where the bungee tension would build up to a point where, when the electromagnetic holding system was released, the container would leap up, then connect onto the rail-supported carrier in a like manner.

    Or maybe I could just use a crazy-fast winch to raise and lower the document container - so many possibilities, so little time . . . ah . . .
  • rekk1986rekk1986 Posts: 6
    edited 2010-02-02 02:11
    Kool. It is great idea. Try your best to implement it.
  • ScopeScope Posts: 417
    edited 2010-02-02 02:29
    We're not allowed to use the "T" word in my classroom! [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    ***ing may involve a presumed element of potential failure - we embark only to succeed.

    And, thanks very much for the support. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2010-02-02 03:42
    If you are only transporting a few pages at any one time you might want to consider using the "T" bar rails as the basis of your system. Not the ones the ceiling is suspended on, but a separate set hung below the ceiling like a monorail that passes over each desk. A small carriage could run along the rail to the appropriate desk and lower the pages that would be held by a large binder clip.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2010-02-02 03:46
    The other alternative would be to hang a model rail road train set on a 1x4 structure above the desks and have a small winch on one of the rail cars.
  • allanlane5allanlane5 Posts: 3,815
    edited 2010-02-02 17:33
    Dude, "trying" is all you CAN do -- it's in the hands of nature and fate and your own experience if you succeed or not. Try, and try, and try again UNTIL you succeed.

    Yoda was mistaken.
  • Spiral_72Spiral_72 Posts: 791
    edited 2010-02-02 20:50
    Alright, I admit, this is a wacky idea but it'd be REALLY cheap (I think)

    Our product was used to make a frame for this robot called the ABB FlexPicker. It's a robot who's designer must have been on drugs at the time, but it works very, very well. I dunno what made me think of it but:

    If you use monofilament on three driven spools mounted to three walls..... maybe two corners and a wall? Three spools, three lines at 120 degrees to a round plate to level the load and balance the fixture. Off the bottom of the plate is your controller, battery and a gripper.

    I'd give you X, Y and Z. You COULD use Parallax's continuous rotation servos although it'd be slow. I'm thinking more three small brushless outrunners with speed controls and you send them PWM for control. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Hmmm, actually you'd need three conductor wire for the monofilament and a slip ring... yuck...... or IR communication and a master slave system.... Hmmm


    OK, I'm just dreaming.
  • AlsowolfmanAlsowolfman Posts: 65
    edited 2010-02-03 03:12
    What if you made an overhead platform for a scribbler? a maze made of Plywood, or something lighter with a channel down the middle, and arches for rigidity. Then you could add a line through the pen hole that goes down the channel, you could get a continuous rotation servo to feed the line up and down the hole. you might be able to get the scribbler to follow the channel as well. as for mounting i have no ideas.

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  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2010-02-03 06:55
    Spiral: I love your idea, it's like the 3-or 4-wire "flying camera" system they use in football stadiums. http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Realtime-Linux-flies-cameras-over-NFL-games/

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  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2010-02-03 07:05
    Spiral_72 nailed it in my view. This is the best idea yet, without a doubt!

    The follow up by erco closes the design issue in my view. This gives 3D movement, minimal installation, and some challenging programming!

    Ken Gracey
  • Capt.KerryCapt.Kerry Posts: 28
    edited 2010-02-03 09:38
    problem is, he has pillars in the middle of the room so the string idea won't work. I think the Unistrut with some kind of relay-operated shunt system like trains use to change direction is the way to go.

    Post Edited (Capt.Kerry) : 2/3/2010 9:44:07 AM GMT
  • ScopeScope Posts: 417
    edited 2010-02-03 10:33
    Great dialog . . . thanks!

    [noparse]:)[/noparse]
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2010-02-03 14:28
    Lots of great suggestions here, and Spiral_72's idea would have been perfect if not for the pillars in the room.

    I would still suggest using model RR parts for several reasons. The parts can be easily obtained, the cost is reasonable, and there are lots of possibilities to add to the system and automate it. It also lends itself to being mounted suspended from the ceiling or to the back of the desks on posts.

    If you really want to build it from scratch then a simple monorail system could be built using plywood and thin conductive strips of copper, brass, or aluminum.
  • sailman58sailman58 Posts: 162
    edited 2010-02-03 14:45
    Others have mentioned this, but let me fill in some blanks. A ground based robot following a line could be mapped to find any workstation. If a wheeled robot is not complex (fun) enough, then consider a 2 wheeled balancer, a walker built like a big penguin, or a large hexapod. Lots of room for sensors so that it doesn't run down the odd student or heaven forbid, the instructor.

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  • AlsowolfmanAlsowolfman Posts: 65
    edited 2010-02-03 15:28
    you might consider a magnetic attachment to the ceiling grid. that would be easy to put up and take down, and easier to get forgiveness if someone sees it.

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  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2010-02-03 15:44
    You should take a look at ceiling mounted rail systems for photography studio lighting and backdrops. B&H Photo Video has several setups at reasonable prices but it may be better just to use them for ideas to make your own. I bought my Canon T1i from them and their customer service was excellent.

    Rail Systems at B&H
    www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Rail-Systems/ci/1348/N/4294550788

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  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2010-02-03 19:35
    erco said...
    Spiral: I love your idea, it's like the 3-or 4-wire "flying camera" system they use in football stadiums. http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Realtime-Linux-flies-cameras-over-NFL-games/

    erco, thanks for that link!!! There's a very high chance that the cable coming out of the side of that camera was made by the cable assembly department here at work. We occasionally make cable assemblies for that camera maker and have made several for that camera model. Most of those cameras end up in helicopters.

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    Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
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