Developing my mechanical attitude. Robotics?
Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
Posts: 8,091
In talking to Ken yesterday, he had asked me if I had tried the new Robotics platform.
(That one they cut out of wood for the larger Parallax motor/wheel set.)
I had to say (with a little embarrassment) that even though I'm a BIG Parallax fan, I had shy'd away
from getting more involved with the Robotics stuff (outside of building my own version of the Boebot)
because I feel like I'm seriously lacking in mechanical aptitude.
I silently read the threads here, and am amazed by the projects you guys do!
The recycling thread is AWESOME. I wish I could look at an old printer like that!
Question: Is Robotics a way to develop this skill, and are there some starting points, books, etc
which would be recommended? Keep in mind you are dealing with someone who loves "bits"
but when it comes to the woodshop, you'd better not want two boards cut to the same length. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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(That one they cut out of wood for the larger Parallax motor/wheel set.)
I had to say (with a little embarrassment) that even though I'm a BIG Parallax fan, I had shy'd away
from getting more involved with the Robotics stuff (outside of building my own version of the Boebot)
because I feel like I'm seriously lacking in mechanical aptitude.
I silently read the threads here, and am amazed by the projects you guys do!
The recycling thread is AWESOME. I wish I could look at an old printer like that!
Question: Is Robotics a way to develop this skill, and are there some starting points, books, etc
which would be recommended? Keep in mind you are dealing with someone who loves "bits"
but when it comes to the woodshop, you'd better not want two boards cut to the same length. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
Comments
For me, I personally find mechanics to be much easier and more interesting than working with code. One of the primary reasons, I think, is because of my long past of tearing apart anything electrically powered to see what it looked like. In fact, I still keep most of it, even though I don't know how to use it. Many times if I'm looking for inspiration I just look at a pile of junk and think "hmm, what can I make with this?" It's something that may be hard for most, but I've been doing it since I was very young, and to be quite truthful almost everything I did then failed. This changed when I got into the world of the Basic Stamp and microcontrollers, but to be quite truthful I've never been scared of a failed robot.
If you've seen the robot that I'm currently working on, what little you see is the product of over a year building. A month or two in advance before starting I thought about it, and finally decided to toss out a hundred bucks for the engine. I wasn't sure how it was all going to work yet but I had my ideas. When I started the plan was to use a small engine like one off a weed eater, turn the front wheels using a 18v screwdriver motor, brake with bicycle-type brake pads and have smaller wheels similar to the Quadrover. I didn't keep these plans for very long as the first changes occurred when, embarrassed about building a robot, I called it a "go-kart" to the person I was planning to buy the engine off of. Needless to say this lead me to buying a stronger 5hp engine instead, leading to larger size, faster speed, stronger parts, and definitely a much more complicated build.
Now I'd have to write a novel to let you know everything that has happened in the past year and a quarter so I won't, but the mere fact that I went from concept to semi-fruition (hopefully it can run soon) is all due in part the my determination and willingness to try new ideas. In fact, when it finally gets done it will be the second successful robot I will have ever designed and built! So obviously there must be something to this determination thing [noparse]:)[/noparse]
To get into robotics just try and build something on your own, even if it must be hot glued together and you'll find it isn't nearly as bad as you think. In fact, just thinking about how you can build a robot can help! I was thinking about a new type of robot not too many hours ago in my history class using four wheels to rest and travel through rough terrain with fins to capture the air and travel with two wheels on flat terrain, maybe front will even be able to barely hover above the ground and travel at speeds above 50mph! But what really matters is that I generated this robot after seeing an image my strange teacher drew on my returned paper of what strangely represents a robot, and using what I've built before, combined with what I've thought up but haven't built yet--like a motorized clutch for each wheel--I've been able to generate an image in my mind of exactly how it would work from the inside out all while sitting in the classroom on a particularly boring day. Just by thinking of how I could build robots in the past, whether I made it or not, helped me design something new, and with some effort you could be the same. And, with a good enough idea, the inner determination will come--or at least it did for me.
That for the most part is all there is to robotics, and maybe eventually you'll agree!
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PG
I think few people are good at all aspects of Robotics, there is just so much going on. Some people will focus on the software and find ways to simplify the mechanics such as using kits or partial kits like the wood platform that you mentioned. Others will thrive on the mechanical and find ways to simplify the software or electronics (think VEX at least out of the box). A few of us are not great at anything but can muddle our way though all of it to some extent. And there are some lucky ones that are great at all of it.
As a profession, I think that robotics is almost exclusively a team sport.
As a hobby, there is no doubt that robotics can be challenging. But would argue that is a key factor to what makes it interesting as well. At the end of the day, it is all about problem solving whether it is software, electronics or mechanical. If solving puzzles excites you (and judging by your many posts, it seems to) then you might find it worth your while to dig in.
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Searider
I used to suck horribly with anything mechanical. Fortunately, in my early industrial control days, I was blessed with an associate who was a mechanical genius; and I could concentrate on the electronics and programming. Since then, though, I've come to realize that a large part of my mechanical ineptness was a lack of good tools. There was only so much I could do with a Craftsman saber saw and a portable electric drill. In subsequent years it's been my good fortune to acquire the tools that I need to make up for my meager manual skills, and it's made all the difference. But, despite the added capability, I'm no more talented mechanically or manually than before. I still can't weld and have no desire to learn. And if I had to cut a piece of metal by hand to the shape of a printed template, it'd be a disaster. But I can draw stuff on a computer screen and tell a machine to cut it out. Without that, though, I'd be lost.
So I guess my advice would be to invest in tools that make up for any gaps you feel that you have in your abilities. That will give you the courage, at least, to try things you might not have otherwise.
-Phil
Enjoy it while it lasts. I used to be the same way during high school: classes were so dull that the most interesting thing was to design stuff. The college came along, and classes got hard enough (and temporally disjointed enough) that getting a concept out onto paper is much more difficult. I used to carry around a sketch pad in HS to draw out things that I found interesting, or just sketch something. Now I carry around a notepad to write down all the things that I'll forget otherwise, then get in trouble for...
As for learning how to be more mechanical the only way that I can share is the way that I learned. From a very young age, I was surrounded with abundant building supplies on all scales, from pocket to tree fort sized. Repeated tinkering has honed and trained whatever seed of skill I had until I can make a passable mechanical structure. I always carry a pocket knife with me, and often have fun toys in my pencil bag (I'm a student...). Thinks like marbles, paperclips, string, tape, rubber bands and lots of pens can make a boring day into something fun.
edit: So I see that I missed the actual question. I'd say yes, robotics can develop a mechanical aptitude but that it isn't necessarily the best way. IMHO, the most accessible way to learn how to build something is to work around the house (make a fence, shed, repair something, etc.). Another excellent method is to take up building scale models, especially model railroads. Those guys (almost exclusively, but not completely) are master craftsman. They understand how the physical world works better than any physicist.
2c
edit ps: If you really want to learn mechanics, study the steam locomotive in detail (a good engineer training manual is invaluable). Almost everything is in there: kinematics, rotational motion, pressures, linkages and gears, springs, and you even get some fluid dynamics and thermodynamics. I think they're the most fascinating device ever created by man.
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Powered by enthusiasm
Post Edited (SRLM) : 1/29/2010 7:03:50 AM GMT
...As far as "two boards cut to the same length" ... there are techniques as long as you are consistent that will improve your margin of error that only come with practice and finding out for yourself what works and does not work. Any time you read something to improve your knowledge about anything and everything, try to focus more on the technique involved rather than the specific application. This will broaden the scope of how you apply your knowledge through future project experiences allowing you to think a little "outside of the book".
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Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
If I slow down, and do a repetitive series of "what if's" when I finally get something working, then I begin to understand the concept.
I'm also bad about reading ahead in the books "Oh, yeah, I got it" . . . but then, when I need to apply that, I don't have the actual experience, so, I crack open the book only to realize "Um, no, I really didn't get that after all"
[noparse]:)[/noparse]
I can't imagine ever learning all I want to about robotics. The advances in technology and gigantic variety of robotic applications will insure I'll always have more to look forward to learning.
And, that's why it's always enjoyable - we're always learning.
Sorry to ramble - I'm such an educator. (ha)
I have a feeling you have hit the nail square on the head.
I know what the recommended tools by priority for electronics are.
What are the recommended tools (by priority) for Beginning robotics?
OBC
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I think I really had more fun when I didn't have all the fancy cnc equipment. I think a real craftman can make some of the best stuff out of the simplest tools. Here is a link to some really good books, even if you don't build the stuff they contain alot of really cool information .
www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/series/index.html
Best of luck,
Brian
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." Albert Einstein
The bulk of my experience is with metal and plastic, not wood, and mostly small stuff, so this top ten list is based on that (in order of importance):
1. A good, heavy bench vise with wide jaws and a large, sturdy workbench to attach it to. (Vise doubles as a brake for bending sheet metal.)
2. Combination square. (Buy this at a garage or estate sale. The new ones are Smile. Make sure it comes with the little scribe thingy.)
3. A good set of screwdrivers, socket wrench set, small hammer, rubber mallet.
4. A set of files. (Buy new. Used ones are probably too dull to be useful.)
5. Eight-inch dial or digital calipers. (Get a good brand, e.g. Mitutoyo. It'll last a lifetime.)
6. Bench-top, multispeed drill press and drill press vise. (Harbor Freight is your friend here.)
7. A complete set of titanium-nitride coated drill bits (Costco carried a nice one once, with all fractional and letter sizes.), #2 spot drill and punch, set of centering punches.
8. Tap and die set.
9. Combination horizontal/vertical metal-cutting bandsaw. (Harbor Freight.)
10. Bench sander. (12" vertical disk: Harbor Freight.)
These are things I use all the time. Notice that there's no CNC stuff in this list. But this will get you going. Others are sure to have different recommendations or priorities. Oh, I nearly forgot — reference materials:
1. Machinery's Handbook.
2. Plastic card with drill sizes and their decimal equivalents on one side, tap drill sizes for various threads on the other.
3. McMaster-Carr catalog.
I also left out materials, fasteners, and the means to store them. But you will accumulate these as the need arises.
-Phil
Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 1/29/2010 8:10:52 PM GMT
I'd add to Phil's list, an optical center punch or at least a good center punch and a metal marking scribe. A dremel tool is a damn fine addition to finishing, cutting or fixing just about everything.
PRACTICE! There is this whole other discussion that drifts back and forth between art and craftsmanship. Art exists in peoples heads but craftsmanship brings it to life. Craftsmanship is what generates great results. CNC does not automatically get you there either. Practice, practice, practice. No one can be expected to get 4 holes drilled in exactly the right place if they only do it once every couple of months. Take out a piece of scrap and try to cut, drill, punch, or bend it to see how the material behaves before taking out 'the good piece' and commiting it.
Be patient. I'm guilty too. Don't get rushed late at night. I've got a whole bunch of 4-40 taps broken off and embedded in aluminum from trying to go just a little too fast on that last hole.
my $0.02.
Jim-
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Signature space for rent!
Send $1 to CannibalRobotics.com.
Number 7 is really the most important.· Oh, and #11) Never launch a model rocket in your basement.
Steve K.
Steve K.
-Phil
[noparse]:)[/noparse] -- Thanks guys for all of this.. It's taken me four years to get my electronics shop really cooking.
All of this will take time, perhaps shorter given the excellent tips. I've done the project robot thing
now a couple times thanks to Parallax. Perhaps it time to get to the next level with some toys. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
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Phil hit the nail on the head. And building your own sturdy workbench makes a good learning project, too. You want something that won't wobble around when you're hammering, drilling, filing, dremeling, or beating your fists on its top, so recognize there is strength in triangles: bicycle frames, roof trusses, etc. all gain sturdiness through the use of triangles. Like everything else, the best way to learn mechanical stuff is to start doing it. Buy yourself a box of bandaids and some dust masks and start sawing. I suggest starting out with wood since it is more forgiving (and cheaper) than metal, except don't plan on meshing any fine-toothed gears mounted on wood - wood responds to humidity, etc. and gear alignments don't always do so well with wood. Chains and sprockets can work out okay, though, so long as you have something (an idler) to take up the slack, etc.
I've heard there is some kind of brain disorder in which people can not recognize and name something they see until they actually touch it. It's almost like their brain won't accept it's real until they have a tactile sensation. I'm somewhat like that when it comes to design: I can make sketches all day of what I think I want, but not until I touch the materials do I get my best ideas. Moral of this boring story: don't dawdle around too long with paper designs when starting out. Just jump in and start making stuff. Sure, you'll mess it up. But when you start out, you'll learn more by making a mess of things than by forcing yourself to follow your drawings even if your intuition suddenly moves you in a different direction.
One word of advice: always wear safety glasses. It's always the dumb little thing that could never fly up and smack your face that ends up embedded in your retina.
Another word of advice: always clamp down things that you're drilling: NEVER hold them with just your hand. NEVER drill toward any part of your body, either.
Always remain aware of where your power cords are: do not saw or drill or dremel through your power cords.
Contrary to what might seem to make sense: do not wear protective gloves while working around rotating machines. If your glove gets caught on a rotating shaft, it can drag your entire hand + arm + head in with it. Without the glove, you sacrifice a piece of a finger, maybe.
Neither shall ye yoke an ox to a lamb.
Have fun.