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Need Prop2 !

RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
edited 2010-02-08 10:45 in Propeller 1
Will crying make it come any faster?

I've been working with some LCDs and could REALLY, REALLY use
more pins, faster speed, and more HUB RAM...



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Comments

  • Luis DigitalLuis Digital Posts: 371
    edited 2010-01-22 14:08
    Chip could not see the future, but the truth is that lack of RAM and more pins has been a headache for many applications.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-01-22 15:02
    The Prop I has been used for things I think even Chip never perceived. Because of these "other" uses, we have found limitations in the prop for what we want to use it for.

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  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2010-01-23 00:09
    I'm looking forward to the Prop II for doing some graphical display work with AMOLED and OLED screens. In the meantime, I am focused on other areas where the Prop I is strong beyond graphics.

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  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2010-01-23 00:32
    One man's headache is another man's opportunity. I like the P1 and will be using it for as long as Parallax feels like making them. 32K probably seemed like generous RAM for the applications Chip thought we'd be targeting, and it's only a headache because so much more has been done than most sane people would have even tried with a chip of these specs. Yes, it's a bit tight if you want to implement an entire web or FTP server with both SD storage and ethernet, but I bet nobody seriously thought the Prop would be used for either reading SD filesystems or controlling low-level ethernet chips like the ENC28J60, much less trying to do both at the same time...

    Also, the smaller process of the P2 means its more numerous junctions will leak more, so no more throttling the power consumption down to microamps by turning off all but one of the cogs, switching to RCSLOW, and doing lazy WAITCNTs. I can think of several apps where I'd much rather use two or three P1's than the P2 as it's currently specced. (Not that I don't want the P2 too, for other reasons, but I WANT IT ALL, DAMMIT!!!!)
  • Patrick1abPatrick1ab Posts: 136
    edited 2010-01-23 02:18
    I need the Prop II as well!!!

    There are so many things I want to build:
    - faster http / ftp server (being able to stream video)
    - Navigation system including high color maps and voice output
    - WiFi Internet Radio + mp3 player device with display and IR remote control


    Is there a possibility to get the latest information on the development progress that has been made?
    A newsletter or something?
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-01-23 02:19
    I feel your pain!!

    More pins, more ram and multiple I/O. But we have what we have, and I want stuff to work now, not in the future, so it wasn't so hard to cobble together the bits I wanted on the Dracblade board. LCD20x4. Keyboard, SD card, VGA display, two serial ports, a handful of spare pins, I2C, 512k ram.

    But that won't be what others might need. Eg, compared with the prop demo board, the Dracblade does not have: - sound, TV, mouse, raw spare prop pins.

    The great thing is that the prop has been out a few years so there are all sorts of existing circuits out there that probably do what you want. So you can mix and match to make what you need.

    More speed? Write more PASM code.
    More output pins? Use latches.
    More input pins? Use buffers.
    More RAM? Use an external ram chip (Cluso has some nifty pre-built boards if you don't want to solder too much)
    LCD displays? What sort - text or graphic?

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  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2010-01-23 02:19
    We want it all. The P1 is great for 95% of my projects I want to do. It is those dreamy projects I have that would work better with more RAM.

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  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2010-01-23 02:31
    If you rush the chef, you get a lousy meal.

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  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2010-01-23 02:51
    Dr_Acula said...
    I feel your pain!!


    More speed? Write more PASM code.
    More output pins? Use latches.
    More input pins? Use buffers.
    More RAM? Use an external ram chip (Cluso has some nifty pre-built boards if you don't want to solder too much
    I'd like to do 480x272 graphics with 24-bit pixels.· Sorry, but none of your suggestions really help...
    This is a job for Prop2 (or ARM Cortex, if you can't wait...)

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  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,255
    edited 2010-01-23 04:09
    ARM Cortex....like the OMAP3530. Wow, now that is a pile of chips!
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-01-23 06:54
    But Dr_A, with the Prop II Cluso can probably halve the size of the smallest Z80 CP/M computer in the world!

    Thing about ARM solutions is that whilst you can get the bigger graphics screens you can't do seven other high speed real-time things at the same time.

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  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2010-01-23 12:44
    heater: Very true, and that is the one big advantage that even PropI has over ARM...

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  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,752
    edited 2010-01-23 13:29
    Infinity is reached, when you can't reach the limits. When you reach a limit in one direction, there may still be infinity in a number of other directions. The prop II will not create more infinity, but just some more directions. Do it with the propI, wherever possible, use variables to mark the actual limits, and when the prop II arrives, just change some variables. Or use a variable 0/1/2/... to select from a array of limiting parameters. Then your software will live forever! Happy coding!

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  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-01-23 14:05
    One thing is for sure, the Prop II will have some shortcomings in it's design. Why?? Because we will find other ways to use it where we will find limitations. That has always been the case, and I dare say will be always be so, at least in my lifetime!!

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    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)·
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  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-23 18:40
    384KB ram will suit the retro feelers, Linux will be next. "Why oh why isn't there 2MB (20MB, 200MB, ... ) ram in this IC" is next year's cry

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  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2010-01-23 18:48
    Why not just 640KB and call it a day. Bill Gates said we would·NEVER need more than that. shocked.gif
    Toby Seckshund said...
    384KB ram will suit the retro feelers, Linux will be next. "Why oh why isn't there 2MB (20MB, 200MB, ... ) ram in this IC" is next year's cry

  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-23 19:13
    Very true, or how about a SDRAM controller that doesn't eat a COG?

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  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-01-23 22:10
    Rayman said...
    Dr_Acula said...
    I feel your pain!!


    More speed? Write more PASM code.
    More output pins? Use latches.
    More input pins? Use buffers.
    More RAM? Use an external ram chip (Cluso has some nifty pre-built boards if you don't want to solder too much
    I'd like to do 480x272 graphics with 24-bit pixels.· Sorry, but none of your suggestions really help...
    This is a job for Prop2 (or ARM Cortex, if you can't wait...)
    I think you could get a Prop to do 480x272 with 24bit color. For a full 24bit bitmap you·need 384k of external memory, and I think·a·set of 12 of these www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en539039 serial ram devices would do the trick. They are SPI, so you need the 3 pins for·SCLK, SI, and SO·hooked directly to the Pro, then the 12 CS pins hooked up via· a 4 to 16 decoder or if possible a serial to parallel setup. They can run at up to 20mhz clock rate, and in sequential mode you can just clock our 8bits at a time. I think that works out to about 6 fps. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Also, you might be able to get 3 Prop's working in concert to do it (one for each 8 bit channel). You'd still need 128k of external memory for each Prop, but you'd have enough pins available for whatever ram choice you wanted. Using parallel sram would give you much faster ram access so your fps would not be so low. [noparse]:)[/noparse]




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  • Chicago MikeChicago Mike Posts: 88
    edited 2010-01-23 22:13
    So long as the P1 doesn't go away any time soon, even with a P2, I'm still happy. I can't take another SX heartache.

    And if there's a P2, please, oh, please still have a form factor that a hobbiest or R&D group can prototype. BGAs and QFNs are utterly useless to anyone without a reflow or SMT line (and associated bag of gold to pay for them).
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-01-24 00:53
    QFNs are quite easy to solder.

    Leon

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  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-01-24 01:51
    Roy, those SPI ram's are 32KB (256Kbits), three of them only adds up to 96KB. You'd need 12 of them to make 384KB.

    I can actually make a 24 bit board for Morpheus for 480x272 LCD's (not using the SPI ram's but wide sram's), but in order to make a small profit, I'd have to get about 50 pre-orders at approx. $100USD+s/h each kit - and it would only work on Morpheus, and it would require mctrivia's breakout (so you guys don't have to solder SMT). It would take 2-3 months before I could ship the boards, and I'd need the pre-orders ahead of time.

    To make a nice generic SMT board, assembled and tested, that would work with any prop board with a free 8 pin group, I'd need a month longer, and about $150 per board, and again, I'd need at least 50 pre-orders before I got started.

    I have two of mctrivia's breakouts, and 10 of the "used" displays, so it would not be difficult - but it would not be cheap either.

    Please note that it would NOT be incredibly fast for drawing functions either - for every pixel, the Prop would have to write three bytes, one at a time, while sharing the memory bus.
    Roy Eltham said...
    Rayman said...


    Dr_Acula said...

    I feel your pain!!


    More speed? Write more PASM code.
    More output pins? Use latches.
    More input pins? Use buffers.
    More RAM? Use an external ram chip (Cluso has some nifty pre-built boards if you don't want to solder too much
    I'd like to do 480x272 graphics with 24-bit pixels. Sorry, but none of your suggestions really help...
    This is a job for Prop2 (or ARM Cortex, if you can't wait...)


    I think you could get a Prop to do 480x272 with 24bit color. For a full 24bit bitmap you need 384k of external memory, and I think a set of 12 of these <a target="_blank" href="www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en539039" target=_blank>www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en539039</A> serial ram devices would do the trick. They are SPI, so you need the 3 pins for SCLK, SI, and SO hooked directly to the Pro, then the 12 CS pins hooked up via a 4 to 16 decoder or if possible a serial to parallel setup. They can run at up to 20mhz clock rate, and in sequential mode you can just clock our 8bits at a time. I think that works out to about 6 fps. [noparse]:)[/noparse]



    Also, you might be able to get 3 Prop's working in concert to do it (one for each 8 bit channel). You'd still need 128k of external memory for each Prop, but you'd have enough pins available for whatever ram choice you wanted. Using parallel sram would give you much faster ram access so your fps would not be so low. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-24 03:12
    BGA does require reflow but it is probably the easiest package the prop2 will come in to solder.

    here is a tutorial on soldering bga with a toaster oven($50 or so)

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/

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  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-01-24 03:24
    Thanks for the tip!

    I just got my hot air rework station in, my 1206 resistor kit, my 1206 capacitor kit... Danger Will Robinson, Bill's getting into SMD! (I have to prepare for PropII)

    You know... two of your modules could be used to make a 32 bit wide ram for 24 bit color with 8 bit transparency... but it would really need an FPGA, as I mentioned above, pushing that many three-byte pixels is not exactly the Prop's forte.

    With an FPGA you could also do point and line drawing in hardware... maybe even simple blits. You know... you already make the breakout module, and the memory module. Maybe you should do an FPGA 24 bit module... I have too much on my plate right now to tackle BGA/FPGA [noparse]:)[/noparse]
    mctrivia said...
    BGA does require reflow but it is probably the easiest package the prop2 will come in to solder.

    here is a tutorial on soldering bga with a toaster oven($50 or so)

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Toaster-Oven-Reflow-Soldering-BGA/
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  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2010-01-24 05:04
    Re "Will crying make it come any faster?'

    *lie mode on*

    Yes, of course it will, probably in the next few days.

    Seriously though, there must be another way to solve this problem.

    Something I'd like is a full VGA screen with 24 bit color and the ability to make any pixel any color I want. The prop can do much smaller VGA, but maybe there are other ways. The N8VEM group are using old school video chips to get color VGA. Heck, Dennis Kuschel www.mycpu.eu/ is doing it with 5 boards made up of 74xx chips and a few rams and roms.

    But do you mean like a LCD VGA monitor, or one of the various smart LCD graphics modules? If the latter, well if they have memory on board that makes things a lot easier.

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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-01-24 05:59
    As far as can tell Bill Gates never said the thing about 640K RAM is all you need.

    However he was always full of (expletive):
    www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html

    What would we do here in Propeller world if nobody wanted to share with anyone like that spoiled brat.

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    Post Edited (heater) : 2/7/2010 6:27:53 PM GMT
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-24 06:35
    ray is using his 4.5" lcd

    i am working on a platform that uses a 16 bit ram module to get 16 bit color to the screen. just keep getting side tracked with having to assemble more boards and need for money.

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  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2010-01-24 09:41
    Bill Henning,
    I did say 12 of those serial rams would be needed, but you don't need them wired up on their own pins. You could get up to 16 of them wired up with 8 pins (3 for clk and i/o, and 5 to drive a 4 to 16 decoder thingy (which selects the chips via their CS pins)). So you could have one prop with 24 pins hooked up to the display (is that how those little lcd things work? 24 pins needed for 24bit color?) and 8 pins to those serial rams. However, I forgot about the pins consumed by the "other" stuff for the display (sync and whatever else).

    Is it possible to rig up some kind of serial to parallel setup to drive the 24bit color. Like one serial to parallel chip for each color component? Would that be fast enough, or even work at all? 480x272x24bit would require a little over 3 megbits (1 megabit per channel) of data per frame to be serially sent out.

    Anyway, I really don't have a need for a 24bit color display on a Prop, but I just like to think about it. It's a Problem and my brain wants to solve it. Even if it lacks the knowledge required...

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  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2010-01-24 17:41
    Hi Roy,

    Those SPI rams are a bad fit for the problem, and they would have to be read out 24 bits at a time, and it would be incredibly slow to update the display. Another factor is 12 SPI rams cost >$12, and three 512kx8 parallel rams (giving much more memory for frame buffer) would only cost $9, so are a better choice for doing this.

    It would be possible to use some shift registers to reduce the pin count, but I don't think it can be made fast enough to be useful as 480x272x60Hz = 7.83Mpix/sec, but with hsync and vsync overhead, need about 8.5MHz clock minimum.

    I know I could come up with a way to do it, probably using multiplexed memory bus and multiplexed display out, but it would be a lot of work, and would need a semi-custom PCB (I could make something based on my Propteus board with extra logic and memory) - and I don't know if enough people would buy it to make it worthwhile to build. I can't afford to take on projects I would lose money on.

    With PropII it will be easy to do.
    Roy Eltham said...
    Bill Henning,
    I did say 12 of those serial rams would be needed, but you don't need them wired up on their own pins. You could get up to 16 of them wired up with 8 pins (3 for clk and i/o, and 5 to drive a 4 to 16 decoder thingy (which selects the chips via their CS pins)). So you could have one prop with 24 pins hooked up to the display (is that how those little lcd things work? 24 pins needed for 24bit color?) and 8 pins to those serial rams. However, I forgot about the pins consumed by the "other" stuff for the display (sync and whatever else).

    Is it possible to rig up some kind of serial to parallel setup to drive the 24bit color. Like one serial to parallel chip for each color component? Would that be fast enough, or even work at all? 480x272x24bit would require a little over 3 megbits (1 megabit per channel) of data per frame to be serially sent out.

    Anyway, I really don't have a need for a 24bit color display on a Prop, but I just like to think about it. It's a Problem and my brain wants to solve it. Even if it lacks the knowledge required...
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  • JRetSapDoogJRetSapDoog Posts: 954
    edited 2010-02-07 18:04
    Okay, this thread has cooled down sufficiently since the last post a couple of weeks ago that now it's time to revive it a bit: I just want to second/echo the suggestion by Patrick1ab for a newsletter or some other kind of publication with Prop II updates. Perhaps it's time for a dedicated channel to be set up on the forum with locked updates at the top from Parallax (and possibly related threads from the community). With much of the Prop II's design goals already being laid bare, making regular updates wouldn't seem to tip-off the competition that much. Of course, any such updates could be accompanied by a disclaimer indicating that features could change and that the project could be cancelled (hopefully such a disclaimer would provide sufficient protection). Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Parallax likes to be as open as possible with us, but just has its hands full. This post is just to amplify that there is indeed interest in receiving updates should there be time to provide them.

    Such updates wouldn't have to be particularly detailed: layout has begun, layout is proceeding, a problem with the design tool has been encountered, design tool problem worked around, sample chips have been arranged, sample chips have are in testing, and so on and so forth (with more detail welcome, of course). Perhaps posting such updates would also help keep the design team on track, somehow.

    Personally, I'm glad to see someone as level-headed as Rayman--someone who has propeller products shipping to the community--be concerned enough about this matter to make such an honest post/plea. No doubt there are lots of ideas in various members' minds that are just begging for a Prop II. Yes, this post has cooled down, but it is not forgotten. Any possiblity for an update mechanism of some sort for the Prop II, Parallax? Regardless, we'll keep plugging-away with the existing chip and wonderful support. Thanks for listening.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2010-02-07 18:29
    For what it's worth, I think a newsletter or other source of official updates would be a terrible mistake. As with the Prop I, this is a project produced by a very small team lead by a single individual. Most of the design is new. There are all sorts of foreseen and unforeseen issues that come up and various solutions have to be tried and retried and discarded and revised. The designer is very principled and has a history of developing products that are not released until they are "ready" and have shown themselves to be of very high quality with very long functional lifetimes.

    1) I think it's a very poor use of Parallax's limited time and resources to product such a newsletter

    2) I think there's a potential risk of putting undue pressure on the design team to produce a less than ideal product despite the best of intentions

    3) Parallax has been very good to date at sharing information that makes sense to share through existing mechanisms (like this forum).

    4) Be patient. Clamoring for information or for features, particularly those already discussed and discarded is not helpful.
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