Prop I Product Line and Prop II DIP Package Future Availablity?

Miner_with_a_PIC

Being a recent convert from the SX (which went EOL recently) to the Propeller, I have to ask...

Will the Prop I become discontinued soon after the Prop II becomes available?>>It would be great if a Parallax representative could comment on this concern.


If this is a thread subject that has been visited numerous times please add a comment with a link to the thread(s), so as not to waste forum calories.


Thanks in advance...


1st>>>Edited the title from "Prop I EOL?" as the discussion seems to have moved toward discussion of Prop II DIP form factor in addition to Prop I EOL.
2nd>>>Removed abrasive EOL acronym from title to prevent any misunderstandings regarding Prop I actually currently going EOL + addition of summary.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Summary of Responses <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Thanks to all that offered their inputs!!!

Prop II DIP Package:
There currently and likely will be no DIP form factor available for the
Prop II due to the die size being too large, the need for extra pin connections and added cost.

The formal word from a Parallax representative was that the DIP would >NOT< be supported but
the plan was to make available cheap breakout boards for us through-holers. There are likely to
be many third-party board variants available that offer variety of design/options.

Prop I EOL:

A member summed up the reality very well:

SRLM said "Predicting the future is incredibly difficult/impossible, especially financial markets.
Asking for a minimum number is a prediction, so whatever the response is it would be meaningless.
Anyway, who says that the Prop will still be relevant in 20 years?"

What can be said is that there are reasons to keep the Prop I around -->

> Prop I is the only Prop available in a DIP package
> Demand for Prop I to support current customer products (and software) already based around the Prop I.
> The Prop I has lower leakage currents that the Prop II lending them well to battery applications
> The Prop I with its lower pin count\complexity is easier to impliement in hardware (some exceptions).
> Prop I is already developed, so Parallax will only have sustaining costs which are minimal
> Prop I may potentially be less expensive (not confirmed)
> Prop I has plenty of horsepower/RAM/IO to handle most projects/applications (compare it to the SX).

Parallax has stated and continues to do so that they intend on supporting the Prop I as long
as they can. I trust this is true and suspect the Prop I will be with us for many years to come.

Post Edited (Miner_with_a_PIC) : 1/22/2010 4:11:59 PM GMT

JonnyMac

Not likely. Keep in mind that the SX chip (wafers) came from Ubicom, it was Ubicom's decision, not Parallax's, to discontinue the SX. One of the major reasons that Parallax invested the money into creating their own silicon is to prevent external forces from affecting them. Parallax has been forced to jump through hoops from time-to-time due to changes by Microchip in the PIC processor as well. It's annoying.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Jon McPhalen
Hollywood, CA

rjo_

Also, Parallax has firmly stated that the PropII will not come in a DIP package. This will pretty much guarantees a permanent market for the Prop1.

Post Edited (rjo_) : 1/21/2010 7:28:57 PM GMT

Miner_with_a_PIC

rjo_ >> There is a Webinar video in which Chip discusses the probability that there will be a 44-Pin DIP version of the Prop II(see link below). This was dated early last year, have things changed??....I hope not the DIP form factor is the bread and butter of most of my projects due to ease of prototyping/soldering.


http://www.parallax.com/Portals/0/Downloads/mm/video/Webinar/2009-03-17-9a-Webinar-[noparse][[/noparse]15].wmv

Mike Green

I seriously doubt that there will be a DIP packaged Prop II. Anything larger than 40 pins is not generally available, rarely used, and clearly would be significantly more expensive than a standard size package. The market for a DIP packaged chip would be too small to support the costs, particularly when everything other than the hobbyist and prototyping market is moving away from DIP packages. That said, it's easy enough to make both prototyping boards and DIP-format modules using surface mount parts like the PropStick and SpinStamp. That would be the way to support breadboarding and the decreasing portion of the hobbyist market dependent on DIP parts.

Parallax has clearly stated that the Prop I will coexist with the Prop II for many years, that they have a long history of marketing their microcontrollers for a very long time while almost everyone else has discontinued devices. Witness the fact that the BS1 is still used and sold and supported.

Post Edited (Mike Green) : 1/21/2010 6:10:23 PM GMT

WBA Consulting

I would like to see a 44 pin TQFP package that is pin-to-pin compatible with the Prop I 44 pin TQFP. That would make any existing product based on the PropI TQFP capable of taking advantage of PropII's new features and the sacrifice of extra IO. The problem with that idea though, is that the PropII has a 1.8v requirement so two of the 4 VDD pins should be 1.8v and that defeats the purpose of pin-to-pin compatibility for existing designs. You can't have everything.

I cant find the DipTrace file right now, but one of my DIP40 adapter board versions I created for my Hydra (so I have access to all IO pins to make it a development platform also) could easily be laid out using whatever package PropII comes in so it could be used with a DIP40 socket and make the extra IO pins available. I am sure several others are already playing around with designs for this type of PropII to PropI adapter board.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Propeller-Based Reverse Geo-Cache Birthday Present Project

Miner_with_a_PIC

Mike >> You make valid points regarding cost and supporting the DIP package on the Prop II but I hope that Parallax will cater to it reasonably large hobbyist subculture and offer that bohemiath form factor. I for one would actually pay a little extra for the DIP package (& added board space) and rationalize the extra layout as saving me from having to order special mounting boards to support the smaller package.


JonnyMac and Mike >>
regarding Ubicom and Parallax's willingness to support legacy products -->

Business is business, Ubicom or Parallax are both driven by the bottom line. If a product line goes into the red for too many quarters then EOL is bound to enter into the business strategy discussions. The least profitable (from Mike's inputs) form factors like the DIP are likely to get removed first which heightens my concerns. There is no custom silicon on the BS1, the Propeller differs in this regard...where the BS1 has minimal overhead to maintain the Prop I has plenty. Consider maintaining the masks, storage of wafers, maintaining of recipes when fabs change resist/tool types, wafer test board upkeep etc. etc.

I truly believe in the Parallax team and feel that they are a conscientious bunch; given this they may hold true to their word and continue to support the Prop I even when profit starts to diminish...I hope this is true or alternatively that the Prop I continues to have a market for years to come.

Mike Green

In the end, all the promises in the world are only as good as the trust you place in them. Parallax has a reputation for support, for openness, and for looking at the world from a long-term perspective. Their behavior over the years has borne this out.

Again, Parallax has said that they will support breadboarding with the Prop II. That doesn't mean they will have a DIP packaged Prop II. There are too many reasons why that won't work, both technically and financially. As I said, it's easy enough to produce a DIP-format module made with SMT devices that will work and Parallax may well market it at a small loss or at least break-even to encourage the use of the Prop II by hobbyists and experimenters and for prototyping.

Remember that the Prop II will be a large chip with a lot of pins. Although a smaller Prop II could be designed and built, it would have to be a nearly complete redesign and there simply are not the resources nor is there enough of a market for the smaller chip to support a parallel 2nd design effort.

Rayman

I·think·Chip·said that·the fundamental problem is that the PropII die is too big for a DIP package...

Otherwise, I could see a market for a DIP version...
Considering that each PropII pin can replace 2..5 PropI pins for DAC and ADC,
I can see a big advantage to a PropII DIP over PropI DIP, even
if a lot of output pins aren't available...

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm

Nick McClick

There are no guarantees in life, but Parallax has said they'll support the Prop I for the long term (20 years+, a.k.a., probably as long as they're in business). This is something they're able to do, too, because they own the design.

Most of the cost of the prop has already been paid (designing the thing). Supporting it by having it in stock is fairly inexpensive - they can always make smaller orders, or just order less often.

There's just about a 0% chance the Prop II will come out on DIP. Parallax (and others) will probably make stamp-style carrier boards for it, though. I'm bummed out at this, but I understand the reason, and there will always be the Prop I, which I still haven't outgrown. In fact, I bet it will get a price cut when the Prop II comes out!

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Propeller Forums RSS Feed!

Gadget Gangster - Share your Electronic Projects

David Carrier

We do not plan on discontinuing the original Propeller (P8X32A) when the second one is released. We did not want to discontinue the SX microcontrollers either, but like Jon was saying, they are manufactured by Ubicom, and it is outside of our control. We will support all versions of the Propeller for as long as we can.

The second Propeller will not be available in a gigantic DIP package; it just isn't practical. We will definitely make it accessible for hobbyists, probably through a low-cost breakout board. It will also require a 1.8 volt regulator, which could be built into the board. (This also precludes a drop in replacement for the P8X32A-Q44, because it is not compatible at the hardware level.) It will still be able to use 3.3 volts for the I/O, so it can be used in the same circuits, just with a different layout and an added regulator.

-- David Carrier
Parallax Inc.

mikediv

I have to ask I to hope there is support for DIP however its accomplished since I think the hobby market is quite a bit larger than everyone thinks and I myself would only use it if I could access it via DIP support..

Mike or Dave why is the new prop chip such low voltage? I see in the industry there is a move to lower and lower power MCU's why beside all the green nonsense why the push to such low voltage MCU's when most of the support chips are +5. or even +3 ???

Mike Green

@mikediv - The reason for the lower voltage is the push to fit more and more on smaller chips. When you shrink the various structures on a chip, you also (have to) shrink the thickness of the insulating oxide layer used to make the transistors and insulate between structures on the chip. Thinner insulators require lower voltages or the voltage punches through the insulating layer (wrecking the device). Lower voltages and currents also reduce power requirements per device (and overall heat dissipation as well). Simpler and less dense support chips can still be made with higher voltage structures.

Chip and others have described how this shrinking also increases leakage on the chip as electrons, helped by room temperature thermal effects, more easily leak/sneak through the insulating layers. There's a tradeoff between chip density and baseline chip power requirements that begins to become significant somewhere between Prop I and Prop II. That's another reason why the Prop I won't go away anytime soon ... The Prop I has a much lower minimum power requirement than what's expected from the Prop II, so the Prop I may well be preferred for low power battery powered applications long after the Prop II is available.

Post Edited (Mike Green) : 1/21/2010 7:53:03 PM GMT

Toby Seckshund

"I think Chip said that the fundamental problem is that the PropII die is too big for a DIP package..."

Ok then, what about my wish for the PLCC 68 or 84, tons of acreage, and socketable for prototyping. PPPPLLLLLEEEEEEEESSSSSEEEEEE.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Style and grace : Nil point

Sal Ammoniac

Nick McClick>> There are no guarantees in life, but Parallax has said they'll support the Prop I for the long term (20 years+, a.k.a., probably as long as they're in business). This is something they're able to do, too, because they own the design.


Support long term yes, but as far as making the chips goes, this only likely only as long as they can find a fab willing to produce chips using whatever process the Prop I uses.

Mike Green

@Toby - It all comes down to costs and volume. I'm sure if you were to guarantee purchase of several tens of thousands of Prop II chips in PLCC84 packages, Parallax would find someone to package and test them. Wishing and "PPPPLLLLLEEEEEEEESSSSSEEEEEE" just isn't enough when other, more marketable packaging is available.

Bill Henning

Mike,

You don't have to worry - there will be a LOT of breakout/proto boards for PropII.... including some from Mikronauts [noparse]:)[/noparse]

mikediv said...
I have to ask I to hope there is support for DIP however its accomplished since I think the hobby market is quite a bit larger than everyone thinks and I myself would only use it if I could access it via DIP support..

Mike or Dave why is the new prop chip such low voltage? I see in the industry there is a move to lower and lower power MCU's why beside all the green nonsense why the push to such low voltage MCU's when most of the support chips are +5. or even +3 ???

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheusdual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Miner_with_a_PIC

David >> Thanks for providing the official Parallax stand on the current direction the Prop I and II are headed. I am grateful that Parallax is committed to continuing the Prop I as this gem is a real pleasure to program, is based around a great concept and well thought out. However, it is unclear from your response how long after the Prop I is released that you guys will guarantee to provide the Prop I product line. I suppose you cannot predict the future but it would be nice to hear a minimum number.


Nick McClick and Mike >> Wise words indeed...I hope the Prop I will remain with us (also in DIP form) for 20+ years this would be great. I suspect many will have migrated to the Prop II (III,IV...) by then. Nick, the Prop I is difficult to outgrow...I believe >99% of users never really unlock the full potential of the Prop. A clean & lean (few waitcnts), all ASM, counter using, all cog utilizing multitasking-beast of a program would be a force to be reckoned with.

Rayman >> The Prop II is based around a smaller technology (I think 0.18 um) and there is a webinar video where Chip mentions the die is ~ the same size as the Prop I die.

Miner_with_a_PIC

Mike >>

"Chip and others have described how this shrinking also increases leakage on the chip as electrons, helped by room temperature thermal effects, more easily leak/sneak through the insulating layers. There's a tradeoff between chip density and baseline chip power requirements that begins to become significant somewhere between Prop I and Prop II. That's another reason why the Prop I won't go away anytime soon ... The Prop I has a much lower minimum power requirement than what's expected from the Prop II, so the Prop I may well be preferred for low power battery powered applications long after the Prop II is available."

Very true, this is the space I reside in on ~ 50% of my projects to date...remote data logging where batteries must last months sometimes > 1 year or where short data collection must be performed in weight/size constrained applications(no car batteries allowed, but maybe watch batteries with their low drain, capacities, weight and size). When each mA becomes a painful sacrifice the Prop I would be what I would reach for in my parts bin, not the Prop II.

SRLM

Miner said...
However, it is unclear from your response how long after the Prop I is released that you guys will guarantee to provide the Prop I product line. I suppose you cannot predict the future but it would be nice to hear a minimum number.

Predicting the future is incredibly difficult/impossible, especially financial markets. Asking for a minimum number is a prediction, so whatever the response is it would be meaningless. Anyway, who says that the Prop will still be relevant in 20 years?

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Powered by enthusiasm

Miner_with_a_PIC

SRLM >> After contemplating over all the commentary and inputs received over the past few hours I have come to the same conclusions that you summed up in your comment. I suspect that the Prop I will be around so long as there is demand, its almost self-evident. My request to David for "a minimum number" was a bit unfair in hindsight, perhaps its the engineer in me wanting to quantify everything(?). No matter what, I firmly believe/trust that we can look forward to the open and timely (greater than the 6-week-Ubicom window) communication from Parallax regarding the Prop I's EOL.

Bergamot

It's never really been explained why they couldn't just make a 32-pin DIP Prop II where half the pins simply wouldn't be exposed.

Mike Green

The main problem is the chip size. I believe the Prop II chip is expected to be slightly larger than the Prop I chip and the Prop I chip, as I understand it, is just able to fit into a DIP40 package and could not fit into a DIP32 package for example. In addition, the Prop II is a 64 I/O pin device that requires a number of other pins as well. I'm not sure, but I think there's a minimum of 10 additional pins for power, crystal, reset, etc. You might be able to shoehorn a Prop II into a 40 pin DIP package with only 1/2 the I/O pins exposed, but that's the best you could do. You might have to give up additional I/O lines for some of the power lines.

mctrivia

i will be making a 80 pin QIP addapter for the prop2 when it comes out(assuming it comes out in reasonable BGA package). This way you get 64 IO ports with the remaining pins being used for parts on the module. physical size should will probably be about 0.2 to 0.4" wider then my propmod-us_ps_sd and the same length.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.

If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map

Post Edited (mctrivia) : 1/22/2010 12:34:18 AM GMT

Cluso99

Based on my expreience...

1. There WILL be demand for the Prop I chip after the Prop II is in full production. Main reason is power consumption and ease of use.
2. There WILL be plenty of breakout boards with the Prop II mounted. You can expect Parallax will do this, but if not, there are a number of us that will do this, me included.
3. A DIP package is NOT possible because of both the size and chip layout. It is not just the power pins, but also the respective ground pins. The last Chip said was that the ground pins will be terminated on a huge pad on the underside of the 128 pin package.

Do not let the smt package frighten you. A pcb carrier will solve this, although a little more expensive. Remember, we will have lots of I/O pins - Chip recently said 96.

Likewise, do not worry about EOL. This is not going to happen anytime soon. The demand will continue to rise long after the Prop II. In fact, the Prop II should also expose the Prop I to professionals who have·either not·seen the Prop I or taken it seriously. And remember, there is only one Prop I die, not many hundreds of variants like other manufacturers have to support.

Just my 2cents

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:

· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm

Philldapill

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of a DIP package. Even when Parallax ran out of the Prop I DIP package, there was a good bit of talk from people trying to capitalize on it by making a surface mount to DIP adapter board. The cost would be minimal, however, Parallax was going to be getting more DIP Prop I's in, so nobody ever really did this.

With the Prop II, you can bet on more than enough competition among people making DIP adapter boards. From that competition, I'm sure the cost of one of these boards will be peanuts, and we will have a plethora of supply. I love capitalism. [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Bergamot

Mike Green said...
The main problem is the chip size. I believe the Prop II chip is expected to be slightly larger than the Prop I chip and the Prop I chip, as I understand it, is just able to fit into a DIP40 package and could not fit into a DIP32 package for example. In addition, the Prop II is a 64 I/O pin device that requires a number of other pins as well. I'm not sure, but I think there's a minimum of 10 additional pins for power, crystal, reset, etc. You might be able to shoehorn a Prop II into a 40 pin DIP package with only 1/2 the I/O pins exposed, but that's the best you could do. You might have to give up additional I/O lines for some of the power lines.

Sorry, I meant DIP40 and not DIP32.

I have no issue with breakout boards in theory, but the fact that you need a chip + a PCB + pins + possibly other components + assembly means that any breakout is going to be a lot more expensive than a DIP. The Spin Stamp for instance is over six times the price of the DIP40 Propeller.

I'm just saying it'd be nice if we breadboarders could get the speed and memory improvements of a Propeller II without paying a ton more than the guys who do their own SMD soldering.

mctrivia

but the guys doing there own surface mount soldering need to fork out $140 for a batch of PCBs. To pay $50 for the chip and supporting hardware is not a huge price to pay.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.

If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map

mikediv

Good news thanks guys, Mike I have to say that was probably the best description or definition of why the lower power use than I have ever read Thank you for taking the time to explain it to that detail I fully understand the concept now it makes perfect sense..
I was talking with a vendor I won't mention names and he went into this big tree hugging save the world nonsense I swear after 5 minutes I think he even forgot the question he didn't hit on one single point you made, lol thanks again guys.
Bill I actually gave SMT a shot but even with glasses and a magnifier my eyes are just getting to old I have tried a few SMT to PDIP boards from spark fun but ended up ruining the traces from over heating I think
It will be a good deal if after market or even Parallax stick it onto a conversion board for us die hard wireless bread board folks.

Bill Henning

Hi Mike,

My adapter will come with the PropII and any other SMD devices already mounted [noparse]:)[/noparse]

mikediv said...
Good news thanks guys, Mike I have to say that was probably the best description or definition of why the lower power use than I have ever read Thank you for taking the time to explain it to that detail I fully understand the concept now it makes perfect sense..
I was talking with a vendor I won't mention names and he went into this big tree hugging save the world nonsense I swear after 5 minutes I think he even forgot the question he didn't hit on one single point you made, lol thanks again guys.
Bill I actually gave SMT a shot but even with glasses and a magnifier my eyes are just getting to old I have tried a few SMT to PDIP boards from spark fun but ended up ruining the traces from over heating I think
It will be a good deal if after market or even Parallax stick it onto a conversion board for us die hard wireless bread board folks.

▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheusdual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I wish this thread would be retitled to eliminate any reference to EOL. Newcomers to the forum might get the wrong idea.

Thanks,
-Phil