PCB Software and Production
Bobb Fwed
Posts: 1,119
[noparse][[/noparse]Skip this paragraph if you don't care about my problems with ExpressPCB]
I have been using ExpressPCB and while it is a simple program to get started on, it has some major limitations once you want to do anything "real". The actual CAD part of the program is functional and simple, but not very powerful. Everything you place is limited to 90-degree rotation, snap-to can be problematic, rounding of pads is impossible without layering pads. Only 4-layer boards, no route testing, no in-board cut outs, the list goes on. But the real problem is their lack of gerbers. Once you order boards from them, you can pay them an additional $60 get gerbers. The problem is not he price, but the gerber package they give you is limited. The assembly company I am going with requires the tcream gerber (I am new to this so I don't know what it is, but it is important for creating a stencil I guess) which is not included. ExpressPCB also cannot do automated panelization (of course manual panelization is always an option, but also cannot do scoring of any type).
Because of these issues, I am looking for new software and a new production company. Any suggestions? I have seen a few decent reviews on Eagle. Cheap is always good, working for a small company, they are afraid of large up front costs.
What about PCB manufacturing companies? Due to company related issues, they need to be located in the USA? Any ideas?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!
Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
Post Edited (Bobb Fwed) : 1/18/2010 5:37:14 PM GMT
I have been using ExpressPCB and while it is a simple program to get started on, it has some major limitations once you want to do anything "real". The actual CAD part of the program is functional and simple, but not very powerful. Everything you place is limited to 90-degree rotation, snap-to can be problematic, rounding of pads is impossible without layering pads. Only 4-layer boards, no route testing, no in-board cut outs, the list goes on. But the real problem is their lack of gerbers. Once you order boards from them, you can pay them an additional $60 get gerbers. The problem is not he price, but the gerber package they give you is limited. The assembly company I am going with requires the tcream gerber (I am new to this so I don't know what it is, but it is important for creating a stencil I guess) which is not included. ExpressPCB also cannot do automated panelization (of course manual panelization is always an option, but also cannot do scoring of any type).
Because of these issues, I am looking for new software and a new production company. Any suggestions? I have seen a few decent reviews on Eagle. Cheap is always good, working for a small company, they are afraid of large up front costs.
What about PCB manufacturing companies? Due to company related issues, they need to be located in the USA? Any ideas?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!
Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
Post Edited (Bobb Fwed) : 1/18/2010 5:37:14 PM GMT
Comments
www.numberone.com
It's very good. Advanced Circuits provides a special free version of the program for use with the their PCB service. I think they supply Gerbers with a second board order.
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Rich H
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
When I was looking to upgrade my PCB CAD software, I tried them all, from Eagle (free) to the big expensive names like PADS and OrCAD. Most were a complete disaster productivity-wise, with one outstanding exception: CADINT. This is a Swedish product, but they have a U.S. distributor. It's not cheap, but then it's not nearly as expensive as the big names either. But I figure that every time I use it, the cost of ownership goes down a notch, because I can finish the design more quickly. (The products I've designed for Parallax were all done with CADINT, BTW.)
For proto PCBs, I use Advanced Circuits; for production PCBs, Lazer Tech. Both do excellent work. Lazer Tech's pricing for U.S. customers is usually very good but depends on the relative strengths of the U.S and Canadian dollars.
-Phil
Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 1/18/2010 6:19:21 PM GMT
www.pulsonix.com
It's fairly expensive, but is two to three times faster than Eagle for a typical PCB design as it needs far fewer keystrokes and mouse operations, making it much better value.
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
How much is Pulsonix? I can't get any price info from the Pulsonix page or the Advanced Circuits page. They both want me to contact a sales person. There is little that is more annoying than companies that won't tell you the price of their software on their website.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
I think $60 is pretty reasonable for the Gerbers, but I wasn't aware of that issue with the stencil.
Personally, I think I'd ask James Long for advice... It appears that he's helped a few people here mass produce stuff.
Might want to ping Nick at Gadget Gangster, he's given me some advice and he's also getting batches made now...
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
They don't publish their prices because of currency fluctuations. It starts at about 1800 euros for 1000 pins.
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
A good friend of mine uses Altium and even though it's much more expensive, the results are excellent. Look at my PowerTwig PCB in the sandbox to see an example of it's 3D rendering it can do.
As far as your assembly house needing "tcream" gerber, they probably are asking for the solderpaste layer and they refer to it as Top CREAM (some places call solder paste "cream"). Standard practice is to supply the stencil maker with the solderpaste layer which only contains the SMT pads that will require paste (IE: all component pads will be present, but SMT test point pads will be missing). If that's not available, the stencil house can modify the top soldermask layer for their needs and create a proper paste layer. To communicate special apertures to the stencil house, a notes file is submitted to the stencil house for any non-standard apertures. If your assembly house absolutely requires the tcream layer for the stencil, ask them why their stencil house is unable to make use of the soldermask layer. It's possible that their stencil house charges an hourly rate for gerber mods. I switched stencil houses 2 years ago for that reason. The old company started charging time for misc. gerber mods, whereas my current supplier (MRC in Fremont, CA) charges a lower flat rate for anything and they have excellent customer service. (ps. to give you an idea of how I know about stencils, last year I ordered 47)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Propeller-Based Reverse Geo-Cache Birthday Present Project
Eagle is pretty good - I used it for all my currently available products, but I am moving to Proteus and Diptrace.
From what I've tried so far, both Proteus and Diptrace are easier to use than Eagle, and both are cheaper.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
www.mikronauts.com E-mail: mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com 5.0" VGA LCD in stock!
Morpheusdual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, Mem+2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95
Propteus and Proteus for Propeller prototyping 6.250MHz custom Crystals run Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler Largos - upcoming nano operating system
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
I don't recall having tried DipTrace or whether it was even around when I did my evals a number of years ago.
-Phil
There is a problem with using soldermask gerbers. First most all CAD packages modify the pad openings in the soldermask. If the assembly company doesn't know how much those apertures were modified, they are guessing on the resize to a smaller opening. Typically software will "swell" each opening 0.004 inch. But without specifics the assembly company is somewhat flying blind.
@Ray, I have talked to Bob, and offered my advice. I am surprised a company like Express PCB doesn't offer the Tcream layer gerber. Many assembly houses would be very unhappy without more direction than what they provide.
We all know why they do this, they want the assembly job. But I have found when you force a customers hand, they will not be a customer for long.
I also side with Diptrace. We use it, and have been very happy. We did use Eagle for one year....and when deciding to purchase a larger package we switched to Diptrace. Eagle is a nice package, but the user interface was not to our liking.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits. Learn to build your own Gizmos!
500 pins:
This info may not help Bob but for any hobbyists that need up to 500 pins for Free. This is what they allowed me (For non commercial use)
"Make sure you have at least version 2.0.06. Notice that Non-Profit (Lite) license works only starting from 2.0.06 . You can then request a registration code by emailing support@diptrace.com "
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!
Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
Bob,
What package do you need.....I do have some components made for the Propeller.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits. Learn to build your own Gizmos!
Use this URL : http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=716352
Go down to: mynet43 and you will find the following DipTrace files attached:
File Attachment :
Surface Mt.eli 53KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 65 time(s).
File Attachment :
Surface Mt.lib 21KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 42 time(s).
File Attachment :
p8x32a-q44.lib 2KB (application/octet-stream)
This file has been downloaded 52 time(s).
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
If you have not already. Add yourself to the prophead map
I'm just curious: has ExpressPCB ever advertised something that they did/would/could not deliver on? When I had read their website a year or so ago, I never got the impression they were anything but a small-scale, quick-and-easy solution for prototypes, etc. I never got the impression they were trying to pass themselves off as anything close to a major production outlet. For my needs (making one-off devices, no more than a couple boards at a time) I've been totally thrilled by how much I could do with next-to-no investment. And, wow man, I didn't even know they did Gerber files at all - until now, I thought Gerber files were simply out of the question, so that's happy news to me.
But now you've got me wondering here with all the complaints: are there land mines at ExpressPCB that I just haven't gotten around to stepping on? or are you all red-faced and weepy-eyed because you simply did not see your needs outgrowing their advertised capabilities?
Wow....I think you have a naive view of who ExpressPCB is. They are not some small company who only does small lots of prototype PCB's. They're a branch of a larger PCB company which does huge runs of PCB's.
I was as surprised, as Bob, about the gerbers they provide. First you must order the boards, then after you have ordered they do not provide a total gambit of gerbers for a very large price of $60.00 extra.
I would say if you think that is a bargain, then you are a easy customer to please. (especially since they are probably using the gerbers to produce your boards, and you have to pay extra to recieve them.)
Now, I am not knocking their service for prototype PCB's, but I am knocking their supply of gerbers. If they have the ability to manufacture boards from their proprietary software, why would they not have the ability to supply the tcream gerber with the rest?
I think it is the lack of information which is the problem here. They do not state what gerbers are provided. Without a tcream, gerbers are truly not complete. How else would one obtain a stencil?? They want you harnessed to them completely. Then you must have them assemble the items as well.
This is just my take on Bob's irritation of the situation.
James L
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits. Learn to build your own Gizmos!
The company seems good. They have very responsive support (though somewhat ignorant at times). As far as I can tell, they do what they claim. They are great for prototyping a few boards. Yes, I may have outgrown my original ambitions, but shouldn't ExpressPCB try to help customers expand? They should provide all the things I need so I will continue to procure larger and larger orders from them. At some point any small company should hope to order enough boards in a short enough period of time that out of house assembly is required, which is where I am, and they fall short.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
April, 2008: when I discovered the answers to all my micro-computational-botherations!
Some of my objects:
MCP3X0X ADC Driver - Programmable Schmitt inputs, frequency reading, and more!
Simple Propeller-based Database - Making life easier and more readable for all your EEPROM storage needs.
String Manipulation Library - Don't allow strings to be the bane of the Propeller, bend them to your will!
Fast Inter-Propeller Comm - Fast communication between two propellers (1.37MB/s @100MHz)!
1. The libraries aren't that great for sm. Making your own isn't that difficult though.
2. No way to do plated or non plated slots, at least not yet.
However, I can see that a more extensive program would speed up productivity. However, for me it wouldn't pencil out. If I was designing 25+ boards a year? Then maybe.
That could be true about the soldermask layer possibly having an unknown variable, but if the stencil house has the full gerber package, any adverse pad elements (such as swelling) are easily addressed. Of the 47 stencils I ordered last year, less than half had paste layers and I only had two stencils with issues due to aperture sizing. Both had very unique parts so we submitted the datasheets for the manufacture's recommended stencil apertures. Unfortunately, the MFR's recommendations didn't work. (One was a micro BGA with 10 mil balls and we ended up going with a 12.5mil rounded rectangle to get an optimum print.)
RE: DipTrace libraries... I agree that this is a shortfall of DipTrace, but at least for Parallax users, there are some libraries being shared. I know you can import Eagle scripts and I have done that for a few parts in the past. Was much quicker than creating from scratch.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Propeller-Based Reverse Geo-Cache Birthday Present Project
I've been using it for several years and have now upgraded to the 2000 pin version.
I tried Eagle and several others before, but they were much harder to learn and not as complete.
DipTrace has four basic modules and they are all completely integrated: schematic, board layout, pattern editor and component editor. It's fairly easy to design new parts and put them in any library you like.
The schematic transfers easily to the board layout program. Their newest auto-router is amazing. I swore I would never use an auto-router until I tried their new one. It usually routes 100% in a reasonable way. Then you just have to increase the trace width of your power lines and you're done.
If you're doing less than 250 pins, it's free. Upgrades are very reasonably priced.
I'm happy to answer any questions or provide libraries for common parts that I have.
Jim
At home I started with Protel on Amiga 2000 thus on the PC I followed the same way: Protel advanced schematic/PCB, Protel98, Protel99SE and now Altium DXP. I think of it as a very professional and complete package. Actualy I know arround 50/60% of its functions but it is enough to produce good PCBs (usually 4 layers). DXP perhaps is a little bit more complicated compared to its predecessors but generally I found pretty easy move up the versions (Protel98 => DXP).
The component/library editor is very user friendly and intuitive.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
· Propeller Object Exchange (last Publications / Updates);·· Vaati's custom search
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Computers are microcontrolled.
Robots are microcontrolled.
I am microcontrolled.
SX Spinning light display·
http://designedbymemicros.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (microcontrolled) : 2/8/2010 5:26:58 PM GMT
Such venom. This is probably not the place to air your dirty laundry.
To go back on topic. I've used Protel/Altium since the DOS days. I spent most of my time in Protel98 and I still have my original disk and manual around somewhere. I'm not entirely convinced of the cost effectiveness now I don't do this stuff as a day job, but I do seem to be able to navigate it fairly effectively. The autorouter does not completely suck either.
Altium also has a library for almost anything. (Except the Propeller), but again creating your own components is a snap.
I had a quick play with Eagle, as they support the operating systems I prefer to use, but I've not really moved that way as I've got something that works for me. I'll have to transition eventually as I'm sure my benefactor will eventually lose interest in providing me a license.
I liked it better when you bought and owned software. This "floating license" stuff is just bollox.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.