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aluminium pcb prototyping? — Parallax Forums

aluminium pcb prototyping?

OakGraphicsOakGraphics Posts: 202
edited 2014-07-09 08:40 in General Discussion
Okay - I have been looking around and it seems the latest craze for LED design is to use aluminum clad pcb for thermal management with SMD based LEDs like the Luxeon Rebel. There are plenty of 'star' pcbs out there but I wanted to make a flood light type of thing.

I have yet to find a company that can do 'prototype' type stuff on this material, so if you guys had heard of a place, I would love to hear about it. smile.gif
Any suggestions? I can continue with the standard FR4 stuff, but thought ultimately the Aluminium pcb seemed the most logical conclusion since I want to put a heat-sink on the back of my pcb to help draw away the heat.

Comments

  • wjsteelewjsteele Posts: 697
    edited 2010-01-12 14:24
    Actually, I was searching for a company to do Flex PCBs as well and came across Epec (http://www.epecpcb.com/.)

    From their site, it looks like they can do pretty anymuch any type of manfuacturing from PCBs to keypads, etc.

    Bill
  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-13 09:15
    OakGraphics said...
    Okay - I have been looking around and it seems the latest craze for LED design is to use aluminum clad pcb for thermal management with SMD based LEDs like the Luxeon Rebel. There are plenty of 'star' pcbs out there but I wanted to make a flood light type of thing.

    I have yet to find a company that can do 'prototype' type stuff on this material, so if you guys had heard of a place, I would love to hear about it. smile.gif
    Any suggestions? I can continue with the standard FR4 stuff, but thought ultimately the Aluminium pcb seemed the most logical conclusion since I want to put a heat-sink on the back of my pcb to help draw away the heat.

    Aluminum is no good for circuit boards except as case or heat sink, unless there is new technology, aluminum circuit boards
    are a very bad idea and if you even try to make one out of aluminum tape you will see why, you can't solder it, and
    it is serious danger if it shorts out, or batteries leak on it. It must be new tech alloy, or it is worthless dangerous junk.
    Electrical code does not allow aluminum wiring in homes because it is a serious fire hazard.
    Maybe it is tin plate, since aluminum is sometimes called tin even though they are not the same at all.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-01-13 09:34
    Here's an outfit that offers aluminum PCBs: Saturn Electronics Corp.

    The aluminum is a core material. The PCBs still use copper for the conductive layers.

    -Phil
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-13 13:09
    VIRAND aluminum wiring is still used occasionally to date. the electrical code of Canada requires special preparation of the ends to prevent oxidation which caused fires in the past. It is usually only used on long heavy pulls now because it is much cheaper and lighter then coper.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board now in. $24.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • edited 2011-03-03 14:53
    Gentlemen,

    We have been manufacturing PCBs for over 30 years now. We have been fabricating aluminum (Thermal Stress Management) PCBs for the past 10 years. We can build just about anything. We can even plate up to 15oz of heavy copper on aluminum or any other material for high voltage. We can assist you in design and production. Check out our website and feel free to contact me.

    www.omegacircuits.com
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-03-03 15:07
    Moderators,
    Please do not mark this a spam. It is good reference.
    Thank You

    Gentlemen,

    We have been manufacturing PCBs for over 30 years now. We have been fabricating aluminum (Thermal Stress Management) PCBs for the past 10 years. We can build just about anything. We can even plate up to 15oz of heavy copper on aluminum or any other material for high voltage. We can assist you in design and production. Check out our website and feel free to contact me.

    www.omegacircuits.com
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-03 08:58
    Anyone knows where I can get raw aluminum pcb? without traces cut on it?

    I have CNC which I use for PCB manufacturing, so making own layout will not be a problem at all.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-12-03 09:38
    CuriousOne wrote: »
    Anyone knows where I can get raw aluminum pcb? without traces cut on it?

    I have CNC which I use for PCB manufacturing, so making own layout will not be a problem at all.

    See #4 - the Aluminium is in the core, (or on the back surface ?) and used as a heat spreader.

    There is also Aluminium oxide, used for ceramic substrates, and thermal insulator washers,

    ["Aluminium oxide is an electrical insulator but has a relatively high thermal conductivity (30 Wm−1K−1[1]) for a ceramic material."]

    There are many ways to lower a thermal path & get better thermal conductivity
    * Thinner material
    * Thermal vias
    * Thermal slugs
    * Thicker copper
    * More direct pathways from LED die to heatsink.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-03 11:37
    As I said, I want bare coppera clad aluminum pcb, which I can etch by my own drawings.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-12-03 13:12
    CuriousOne wrote: »
    As I said, I want bare coppera clad aluminum pcb, which I can etch by my own drawings.

    Do you mean as a single-sided no-holes design ?

    Normally I'd expect a multi-layer PCB approach, where they build a thin 2(+) layer pth laminate, and then bond to an Al backplate for stiffness and easy thermal connection.
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2012-12-03 14:55
    Okay - I have been looking around and it seems the latest craze for LED design is to use aluminum clad pcb for thermal management with SMD based LEDs like the Luxeon Rebel. There are plenty of 'star' pcbs out there but I wanted to make a flood light type of thing.

    I have yet to find a company that can do 'prototype' type stuff on this material, so if you guys had heard of a place, I would love to hear about it. :smile:

    Yes, PCB Pool offer this service: https://www.pcb-pool.com/ppuk/info_pcbpool_alupanel.html - I've yet to take advantage of it. As I understand it milling might not be reliable due to the risk of metal shards penetrating the insulating layer between Al and Cu - perhaps an interesting experiment though.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2012-12-03 16:46
    I use these guys for there 10pcb/$100 special all the time, they also do what your are looking for (of course cost more)
    http://pcbnet.com/led.html
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-03 23:07
    Yes, I want bare aluminum sheet, covered with thin insulator, then bare copper sheet on it. No holes or pre-made traces, I'll handle that everything by myself.
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2012-12-03 23:54
    CuriousOne wrote: »
    Yes, I want bare aluminum sheet, covered with thin insulator, then bare copper sheet on it. No holes or pre-made traces, I'll handle that everything by myself.

    Why not just buy a copper PCB and then epoxy it to the aluminum backing? I suspect that's how the manufacturers do it, since you couldn't make PTH with the aluminum backing in place.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-04 01:42
    The genuine copper clad aluminum pcb's use very thin insulating material, which is also great in heat transfer.

    I don't want DIY. I want to buy.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-12-04 08:17
    Are you sure the copper is laminated to the aluminum before it's etched? Having aluminum in the etch bath could be an issue, unless the etchant is very selective.

    -Phil
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2012-12-04 09:13
    Acid dissolves copper, alkali dissolves aluminium, and besides thay can put photoresist on both sides of a board, its routine.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-12-04 09:29
    I can not help but wonder if it would be just simpler to stay with copper.

    http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83361

    The main reason that I figure aluminum is uses is to reduce material costs, but having to work with it may add costs.

    I suppose on can electroplate copper on to aluminum after it comes out of the etch. This would aid soldering and avoid the creation of a high resistance aluminum oxide layer.
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,664
    edited 2012-12-04 10:06
    The Wiki article Power_electronic_substrate compares ceramic (aluminum oxide or nitride) substrates, aluminum metal substrates, thermally aware copper. But it is not quantitative or practical. Does anyone know of a good reference for that?

    I'm thinking not so much about LEDs, but the same sort of problem, those tiny power supply chips come in DFN or thermally enhanced msop packages that handle amps of current. It would seem that ordinary 2oz copper is still the best bet for circuit that needs to have two layers for electrical connections.

    On the subject of etching aluminum: I've used phosphoric/acetic acid for that.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-04 11:03
    Actually, I use engraving machine (Roland EGX-350), to make own PCBs, so by word "etching" I meant cutting the traces on the PCB, not chemical process. Don't get me as rude, but when I say I need copper clad aluminum, this means I really need it, and other ways are already tried.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-12-05 01:38
    @curious one
    It seems that electroplating sheet aluminium may be the easiest way to go. One would first have to etch the oxide off of the aluminium in order to get a direct metal to metal contact for good electrical properties.

    Then one would have to epoxy backing to aluminium. I suppose the order could be reversed - laminate first and plate last.

    As far as I can tell, many places that would provide an aluminium layer in a PCB would do all these tasks. While what you can buy ready made is just the copper clad boards. The world is not directly supporting milled circuit boards. The market place considered itself supporting etched copper boards.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2012-12-05 02:04
    Personally, I've already modified a bunch of factory made aluminum pcb -s with my engraver and they work fine.
  • Omni_PaulOmni_Paul Posts: 1
    edited 2013-08-09 07:51
    CuriousOne
    If you are still in need of an aluminum trace PCB we can help. We manufacture PCBs with solderable 40 μm aluminum bonded to an FR4 substrate. The product is used by customers who need a more robust wire bond connection than gold for chip on board applications and also want to solder components to the PCB. We are Omni (www.omnicircuitboards.com). Let me know if you have any questions.
  • Allen393Allen393 Posts: 1
    edited 2014-07-09 08:40
    Hi, A-TECH CIRCUITS have produced Aluminium PCB more than ten years with lots of experience, it might be helpful if you have any Aluminium PCB manufacturing requests, please refer to the web link: http://www.atechcircuit.com
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