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Prop Mind Control ? — Parallax Forums

Prop Mind Control ?

RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
edited 2010-01-14 06:54 in Propeller 1
That Mindflex toy has me thinking about turning my Prop EKG into a mind control circuit...

Think it will work?
http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/Programming/PropEKG/PropEKG.htm

I haven't actually seen the Mindflex in person, but I'm thinking that the real electrodes are the two clips on each ear...

In that case, I think it will work.· Just need to make sure I'm not filtering out the frequency of interest.
Actually, I need to figure out what the frequency of interst is...



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Comments

  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-07 10:02
    That reminds me of this: (my favorite, the only one I think I taped)
    www.imdb.com/title/tt0708798/plotsummary

    Can you control the wavelength if you put the EKG electrodes on your head?
    The wavelengths should lengthen if you close your eyes and imagine something relaxing like
    a breeze and slowly moving palm tree leaves on a tropical beach with mild surf, or take a nap;
    and it may go totally scribbly berzerk if you laugh at something very funny on Youtube.

    Spectral analysis might be useful from maybe 1.5 to 48 Hz. (arbitrary DFT)

    I would like to make an EEG biofeedback machine. Edmund Scientific used to sell them in the 1970s.

    Post Edited (VIRAND) : 1/7/2010 10:07:57 AM GMT
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-07 10:08
    Which way round do you want , Mind controlling the Prop or Prop controlling the mind ?

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-01-07 14:35
    If the system isn't properly isolated from the mains, the Propeller will definitely control your mind for a few milliseconds if there is a fault condition. Your mind might not be working afterwards, though.

    Leon

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  • sylvie369sylvie369 Posts: 1,622
    edited 2010-01-07 15:05
    Since we discovered that the brain has very little to do with behavior, I've lost any interest in·mind control.
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-07 15:15
    Leon· Where's your sence of adventure.

    Any way the NHS still uses shock therapy, something that troubles me with my name!

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-01-07 16:33
    What's with your name and ECT? I just don't get it.

    When I studied psychology 30 years ago ECT was on the way out. It was only used as a last resort, when everything else had failed, and the alternative was the patient committing suicide. I very much doubt if it is used much these days, as drug treatment is generally very effective.

    Leon

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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2010-01-07 16:40
    Toby Seckshund = "To be sectioned"

    Which is the English of hand way to say being forcibly kept in a mental institution by the state under a certain section of the Mental Health Act.

    www.thesite.org/healthandwellbeing/mentalhealth/treatments/beingsectioned

    Leon, you should know this stuff.

    Toby, sorry for giving you away again.

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  • TonyWaiteTonyWaite Posts: 219
    edited 2010-01-07 16:43
    First response deleted entirely!

    Edit: looks like my mind's worse than Heater's!

    Post Edited (TonyWaite) : 1/7/2010 4:49:34 PM GMT
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2010-01-07 16:44
    I need some ear electrode clips... Wonder if big alligator clips would work...

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-01-07 16:55
    Or those big clips that are used on clip-boards. They'd be less painful because of them being flat and the greater area. We use croc clips in the UK, not alligator clips, BTW.

    Leon

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  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-07 17:11
    Rayman

    Back in my·Outside Broadcast days, the electricians would get bored an run competitions to see who could stand the most croc clips (large ones used for lighting gels and scrims) attatched to their faces. Ears first the when they ran out of room the nose .. lips ......

    Dead funny, to watch.

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  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-08 12:04
    Bill Beatty describes a phenomenon with a spoon on your tongue and touching a 9 volt battery with a finger and
    the end of the spoon, causing an illusion of bright light. I don't like batteries on my tongue so I made a 555 oscillator
    with a pot on the output, and starting at zero volts between the spoon and my finger and slowly turning up the
    pulse voltage, sure enough it looked like the lights were slightly brighter and dimmer at pulse on and pulse off
    square waves. I turned up the frequency to about 10 Hz but disappointed that there are no phospheme effects, ...

    ...which DO happen if you put LEDs in front of your closed eyelids and adjust the square frequency from 1 to 30 Hz. At 30,
    there is very little but as the frequency of flashing goes toward 10, patterns increase in complexity and color, and
    at frequencies below that, it gets less interesting and hypnotic if not too bright. (then you fall asleep) Flashing LEDs
    work without electric shocks. Patterns differ greatly between individuals. Epileptics have tried it without having
    seizures after being warned and curious but that is no proof that it is safe for them.

    Another related phenomenon to the LED flashing phosphemes is binaural beats which is like an unnatural synthesis of
    the stereo subcarrier of FM on a mono signal, which cancels out in each speaker a differential signal between them,
    consisting usually of frequencies from 1 to 30 Hz (brainwave band) and sometimes inaudible subliminal messages.
    The binaural beats may be experienced as a positional wiggling but not sound; there is no sound coming out of
    the speakers corresponding to the binaural beats but the differential must affect where the sounds from each ear
    interact. It is possible to rewire the speakers to cancel out the audible sound and hear the binaural sound.

    Binaural Beats plus Blinking LEDs on eyelids is probably extra special. Some people with the blinking LEDs on eyelids
    (actually on sunglasses) say the patterns seen respond to any music heard.

    Long ago I heard that 10,000 Gauss and also 1 Tesla magnetic pulses induce depolarization in neurons, supposedly
    capable of generating phosphemes or light effects. Such a machine was built with safe isolation but without a good
    means of controlling or shaping the pulses; they did indeed produce a sensation not otherwise likely to be associated
    with electricity, different in different people, and not much different over its range and proximity to various regions
    of the body. I described the pulse field as a feeling of being slapped by invisible people. Everyone got bored with
    it because we could not adjust anything to change the sensation. It used more power than a microwave oven during
    pulse generation, and could not be switched by anything available other than a frankenstein switch, and could not
    be tuned too far away from a 3 kilometer pulse wavelength. Large 1KV 88uF capacitors were discharged into a
    10 turn, 5-inch diameter thick guage copper coil, and the wavelength was measured peak-to-peak on the second
    and third ring peaks using a microsecond clock, 300 meters per microsecond times how many uS between peaks.

    The machine still exists, and supposedly ultrasonic sound vibrations can be used to target areas of the brain.
    Actually, that theory is that there be a magnetic field and sound field of the same frequency, one volt DC may
    be induced where the vibrations cause induction, and thus depolarize neurons in interesting areas of a brain.
    That would be a different machine altogether, but one probably capable of effects similar to those that have
    been done in some mad science lab a hundred years ago involving poking a live brain with a wire and asking
    its owner what they experienced. The theory of making a DC current appear anywhere by focusing sound in
    a magnetic field of the same frequency is very interesting, and has been used in microphones that are tuned
    to receive only one frequency, which would output DC because that frequency is also the power source of
    the electromagnet in a dynamic microphone. A continuous DC current suddenly appearing in any old place is just
    bizarre to consider though... I'm sure Nikola Tesla had a good use for that trick.

    That's all I can remember about brain hacking now...Except...
    If the brain is electrically and chemically active, why aren't people getting high on voltage instead of drugs?
    Hmmm. Wasn't there an electrical steroids bed in one of the Rocky movies?

    Oh I forgot. I tried to build Flanagan's Neurophone. It didn't work for me at all. If it did, I have a
    hypothetical test pattern ready to try to get Neurovision with it as well, like in the movie BRAINSTORM.
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2010-01-08 12:31
    Or, just do as OBC's avatar.

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  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2010-01-08 15:37
    I just bought a NeuroSky MindSet, which is based on the same technology as the MindFlex toy, but outputs the raw data and has a documented programming API. Results are mixed; they are trying to do a lot of digital filtering to get the EEG signals out of all the noise, but I think they're still evaluating a lot of muscle control signals as if they were EEG. Putting the set on my knee the signal is noticeably simpler, but the proprietary "e-sense" values are still happy to report my meditation and attention states. (Perhaps my knee is meditating on attentively kicking a$$). They do appear to be doing real FFT and reacting to frequency spectra instead of simple GSR, but I'm not sure exactly what the data they're getting signify that might be useful.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2010-01-08 16:53
    I was just wondering today how much of these signals are from facial muscle and not really the brain...

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • TonyWaiteTonyWaite Posts: 219
    edited 2010-01-08 17:02
    I tried out some similar micro-electrode systems about twelve years ago: they were great at reading deliberate albeit very
    small muscle changes but useless for anything else.
    T o n y
  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-09 07:06
    EKG sounds more dangerous than EEG.
    I heard a rumor some fool died by stabbing his thumbs with an ohmmeter. Direct conduction to the heart.
    Hard to believe, because I once played with ... um... tested... 9 volt circuitboards underwater in a pool, without any shocks.
    ECT is probably just a defibrillator discharged on someone's head. Or is it a bigger shock than that?

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    VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
    you'd have tons of awesome code to post!
  • SciNemoSciNemo Posts: 91
    edited 2010-01-09 19:08
    I have a recommendation!

    Don't measure the brain itself. The brain produces so many signals it would be almost impossible for you to use a prop and simple circuitry to pick them up and decode them.

    Try and measure signals from muscles instead. If you make it sensitive enough you don't have to actually move the muscles to make it work, and it is vastly simpler to decode.

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    Not the fish.
    sites.google.com/site/bitwinproject/
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2010-01-13 04:07
    Rayman

    Some years ago, I was interested in the effects of EMF on ion binding proteins. Ca++ - Calmodulin is the prototypical example.

    Calmodulin is interesting because it hasn't changed much throughout evolution. The calmodulin in yeast, for example, is almost identical to the calmodulin in your brain. Many years ago, I read reports that during growth, yeast gave off a 1MHz signal... which matched an electronic state of the calmoduln molecule. I have always been interested to know what we would see, if we were to look at the 1MHz transmissions of the brain. You should try it[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    If everything else fails... you can use your device to make a better beer!!!

    http://pst.pppl.gov/tt/projects/RFArt.pdf

    Rich
  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-13 05:16
    If that is true, all we need is a pair of small AM transistor radios on our heads both tuned to "10",
    and one with an earphone jack connected to an oscilloscope. Those radios usually have tiny dials
    from 5.4 to 16 for the 540-1600khz band. Having 2 of them creates a regenerative amplifier of
    radio waves, and since that makes them able to receive radio stations from thousands of miles
    away, the experiment should be done in a faraday cage, some kind of box or room with metallic
    walls to keep out radio stations so we only listen to brains.
    The phenomenon also implies reciprocity (or reaction or reflex action?), meaning that the radio station at
    1 MHz should bother our brains a lot if we are near it because of the very high power field affecting the calmodulin,
    but I am sure I would have noticed the slightest effect of it if there was any effect at all.
    The Dan Rather "What's The Frequency Kenneth" incident might have been caused by Radio Teeth,
    which is when filling oxidation forms a crystal diode radio, which typically is heard inside
    of the head due to the "bone phone" effect. When I was in high school I became interested in
    the bone phone and neurophone when they banned headphones. Wow, I forgot about that. I NEED MORE BRAINS!!! haha.

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    VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
    you'd have tons of awesome code to post!
    (Note to self)
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2010-01-13 15:46
    It is true... but I'm not sure AM transistor radios are all that would be required[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    The Canadians are a lot more forthcoming about this nonsense than we are... so, if you want to see development ... feed the idea to a Canadian[noparse]:)[/noparse]
  • CannibalRoboticsCannibalRobotics Posts: 535
    edited 2010-01-13 18:12
    I worked on a DOD project years ago to try to monitor brain function in a pilot's helmet without actually having to attach electrodes to the scalp. At the time it was destined to let the aircraft know when the pilot became non-functional; over G'd, blacked out, dead or injured and incompacitated. I don't know if that went anywhere over the years. We ran into trouble because it had to be weightless and wireless, Navy is sort of sensitive about wires crossing the ejection seat. I digress, there might be some info on the sensor technology in aviation circles.
    It's kind of looking like the gave up and solved the problem by replacing the pilot with a computer.
    Interesting idea though, I think my mom has some clip on ear rings she'd let go of.
    Jim-

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  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2010-01-13 18:19
    I like the idea of controlling a prop with thought. But doubt any serius interface can be done without implanting a chip in the brain. Sure muscle impulses can be decoded but a mouse is quicker and more convient.

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-01-13 18:37
    CannibalRobotics said...
    I worked on a DOD project years ago to try to monitor brain function in a pilot's helmet without actually having to attach electrodes to the scalp. At the time it was destined to let the aircraft know when the pilot became non-functional; over G'd, blacked out, dead or injured and incompacitated. I don't know if that went anywhere over the years. We ran into trouble because it had to be weightless and wireless, Navy is sort of sensitive about wires crossing the ejection seat. I digress, there might be some info on the sensor technology in aviation circles.
    It's kind of looking like the gave up and solved the problem by replacing the pilot with a computer.
    Interesting idea though, I think my mom has some clip on ear rings she'd let go of.
    Jim-

    I did some work on the same thing when I worked in the BAe Advanced Cockpit Research Group some years ago. The only solution I came up with was a SQUID device in the helmet, but it would have been too heavy and complex. Perhaps room temperature superconductors will come along and make it possible.

    Leon

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  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2010-01-13 18:40
    CannibalRobotics said...

    Interesting idea though, I think my mom has some clip on ear rings she'd let go of.
    Jim-

    · I like the clip-on ear ring idea (from a practical point of view)!· Not sure I'd show that off in public though...

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  • VIRANDVIRAND Posts: 656
    edited 2010-01-14 02:51
    Hmmm. Forgot about SQUIDS too. Don't have cryogenic equipment. I had a reused idea but it is so complicated
    we might as well skip it until after considering NMRI, which I think may by now be patent-expired. BTW,
    the "electric drugs" I mentioned are called TEMS for the "electric steroids" and TENS for the neuron depolarization fields.

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    VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
    you'd have tons of awesome code to post!
    (Note to self)
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2010-01-14 06:33
    Ray

    botox... just squirt a iittle in under the electrodes... gets rid of the muscle movements completely[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    I've been in an out of the forum, so I get a little lost. Where are you with the touch screen?

    Rich
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2010-01-14 06:54
    On the topic of mind control with a Propeller. Take a look at Michael Persinger's work. He used to be all academic all of the time and then started talking about this stuff in public... so now he is sort of a celebrity. He used some solenoids on a helmet to have some fairly remarkable effects. Great controversy always surrounds public discussions in this area. I came across his work before he was a celebrity. At that time no-one was doubting his veracity.

    One of the complaints is that no-one has managed to reproduce his work... which by the way is true for almost every study in this highly political area. It is usually impossible... because there is usually an important variable that goes un-reported.

    Persinger isn't a Canadian by birth... which may be why he talks so much[noparse]:)[/noparse] If you approach him on behalf of interested forum members, with the intention of reproducing his studies in a technically competent manner, my guess is that he would open up to you like Niagra Falls.

    There are lots of potential medical applications... if we live long enough to see them. For example, eye doctors at the Helmholtz Eye institute in Moscow have used similar fields to treat ocular inflammation. I saw it myself... no doubt it was real and it really worked.
    Get the fields a little too strong and you see all kinds of brain pathology[noparse]:)[/noparse] So, you wouldn't want to play around with this stuff without someone like Persinger watching over your shoulder.




    Rich
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