Hey Brad mate....is there a reason you are adding Smiley faces after quoting me???? it has happened twice now and it is not in my original
posting....so either you must be inserting it deliberately or there is something going wrong when you press the Quote icon on you browser??? ·
If it is deliberate then WHAT do you mean???
heater said...
Sorry Sam. More helpfully we use Free Pascal and the Lazarus IDE. www.lazarus.freepascal.org
With that your apps can run on Windows, Linux, Mac. Even cross compile for ARM, PowerPC etc.
Thank you Heater....that is a useful link...I am going to look into it...I used to LOVE Pascal
and have done many BIG projects with it in the good old days of Turbo Pascal.
Hey Brad mate....is there a reason you are adding Smiley faces after quoting me???? it has happened twice now and it is not in my original</P>
posting....so either you must be inserting it deliberately or there is something going wrong when you press the Quote icon on you browser???
<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">If it is deliberate then WHAT do you mean???
It's not deliberate. Your posts contain so much formatting that quoting them verbatim causes all sorts of weird stuff to appear. I got sick of cleaning all the formatting out when composing a reply, so I just leave it as is. The smileys are just a side effect of that I guess.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
I was wondering how and why Samuel's posts appear so different than everyone else's.
They appear big and loud on my browser as if we are half blind and deaf.
It reminds me of how I sometimes use bold and italic but Way More INTENSE.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
you'd have tons of awesome code to post! (Note to self)
Here is a posting that I am doing that is Quoting the very same posting of·mine that you quoted. As you·see there ARE NO smiley faces.....(see below)
So there must be something wrong with your Browser.....since mine is not inserting any smiley faces as yours is doing.....I quoted the exact same posting which has the same formatting.
I actually do not do any formatting other than Bolding. So I am not sure what is going·amiss·on your side.
But I also have noticed that you DID·EDIT the quote.....since my quote below does not match your quote in content. I just pushed the Quote button on the forum and the below is what I got.
So I can only draw the conclusion that·it is either your editing as well as your browser or just your editing or just your browser·that is inserting the smiley faces.....not my formatting....since as you see from the quote below there are no faces and I·used the very same action you have done to quote my posting. I also am intrigued as to why would you not do a few more strokes to edit the smiley faces out when they appear since you are already editing the quote any how....but I guess we all miss some things.
In any case, I am glad that it is not intentional....I was starting to get offended in that I was thinking that you are giggling at my posting especially with the slightly CONDESCENDING tone of the accompanying reply.
I myself am guilty of sometimes coming across as a Smug Condescending Smart Aleck even though it never is my intentions to do so. I guess it is because sometimes I tend to assume that people do not necessarily know what I know because of my age as well as being too used to TEACHING pupils.
In the light of all this I will opt to not take offense, especially in the knowledge that you are a highly educated and civilized person and only immature uneducated people tend to giggle and snigger at other people out of their inferiority complex or maybe superiority complex but either complex is·a result of ignorance.
I know that you are definitely not an ignorant person from having read many of your postings and from following some of your work. I am also assuming you would have done the same in my case. But here I go again assuming things about other people.
P.S. It might be something with the Mac systems that is casuing all that detailing of formatting to come on your machine.
Becasue as you see I have quoted the very same post and there is none of that.....?????
SamMishal said...
BradC said...
Rumours of Pascal's death are greatly exaggerated.
Let's look at some applications most of us will be familiar with, shall we?
Well, well.... I did not know that.....good to know....I am glad that Pascal is still alive and
apparently thriving in the hands of many able people. ·
How do the compilers you use manage to interface with the windows API and other
things like the ActiveX and such? ·
Thanks for telling me. ·
Hi Virand,
I am sorry if you perceive my style as loud. This issue has actually come·up before and it was settled (I thought).
Here is what another forum member said (some bolding is mine)
iDave said... I didn't think Sam was shouting and would bet most won't. When people overuse exclamation marks!!!! - I get that as shouting and annoys me to no end or use capitals throughout an entire entry or heaven forbid BOLD all the way thru. He's just putting stress on certain points he's making.(mostly thoughtful and not a shouting rant) Same as the textbooks we all have read. There's bold, italicized and all flavor of formats in those teaching books. I never put them down cause I thought they were SHOUTING at me...maybe because I was lazy. lol
But also please refer to this postings to see what I say about the issue.
I use Microsoft word to write my postings so as to make sure I have correct spelling. Being an old man I was educated·old school·and it was hammered into me to never·write incorrectly. So in that spirit I use MSWord to help me maintain my writing as close as possible to proper English and when I finish I cut and paste the text into the forum editor. The forum editor·seems to·use a different font for that cut and pasted text for some reason.
However, I actually found that to be a pleasant side effect. Again, being a·geriatric I AM half blind and definitely almost half deaf too. Even though I do not see (pun intended) how when one is reading something he can perceive it as loud.
Therefore, being half blind I found the slightly bigger font which the forum editor seems to use when I cut and paste from MSWord actually a pleasant thing since I do not have to SQUINT and bring my head closer to the screen to be able to read it.
However, PLEASE if you can take a Screen Shot of my postings that you found so LOUD and PM it to me I would be grateful. I would like to see what it looks like on your browser. Since on my browser (I use IE) does not in any way produce such an objectionable effect.
P.S. You may have noticed that I have not used MSWord this time·and typed the posting in the forum editor directly....so I hope there are no spelling errors...blame it on the editor not·me if there are any.
Sam: "I actually do not do any formatting other than Bolding"
I have been wondering about this for some time and now VIRAND also. Your posts are very often in a large font with liberal use of bold and colour. This is a shame as it is irritating and detracts from the interesting content.
Is it really so that you don't add all that stuff?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
But I also have noticed that you DID EDIT the quote.....since my quote below does not match your quote in content. I just pushed the Quote button on the forum and the below is what I got.
Actually Sam, I never *edit* any quotes other than to remove content irrelevant to the context of my reply. For your interest I've attached a screen shot of the formatting I get whenever I reply to any of your posts including microsoft specific font specifications, bolding and font size specifications.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Very Very interesting....thanks for the screen shot....
I actually see where the smiley faces were generated....it is the stuff between the < >.
It·looks like it is caused by·the fact that I cut and paste the text from MSWord combined with the MAC browser (Firefox?). I definitely do not get anything like this on my browser· when I use the forum editor and do quoting.....Intriguing...!!!!
Well, I·now have learnt not to use MSWord and just type the text directly into the forum editor....
I wonder if other people who use Linux and Mac machines are getting the same thing. Also does anyone who uses Firefox on Windows get the same or is it to do with the OS too?? I guess I now have to fire up my Linux machine and view all my postings with Firefox to see what they look like.
In any case....this has been interesting... I now know not to cut and paste out of MSWord. Ugh...I have to learn how to spell I guess .
OK Sam, sorry, now I understand.
To solve the vision problems and be sure of spelling you are using MS Word then cutting and pasting into the forum.
Quite a reasonable idea except it leads to the chaos that is the finished post that we all see. I have not use Windows for so many years I forgot what a mess it can create. This is definitely a case of "What You See Is NOT What You Get", WYSINWYG.
Could I make some suggestions:
1) Use FireFox instead of Internet Explorer.
2) FireFox has a built in spell checker. I rely on it for my forum posts[noparse]:)[/noparse]
3) FireFox can display the forum pages with a larger font, if only temporarily while editing your posts, just by hitting Control and +.
Go back to normal size with Control and - when done. Perhaps IE can do this as well, I have no idea.
4) Use the "Preview before posting" button, then you can see what you will get.
I'm glad the mystery is solved. I could not believe you were doing all that on purpose.
Edit: Oops, soory again, you are using a MAC not Windows. Well I guess my suggestions still stand.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
I don't use my Mac's day to day (well, not in MacOS anyway). 99% of my posts are from my laptop running Linux and Firefox.
Heater has a couple of very good suggestions there. Firefox has a built in spell checker (or it interfaces with the spell check service the OS provides - either way). I don't use it to correct, but I know it can. It certainly lets me know with a wiggly red underline if I've mis-spelled something so I can change it.
Likewise, the ctrl - +/- keys to make the whole text larger or smaller are very useful. I use an 11" screen at 1376x768 with font's displayed at about 9 point, so there is nothing wrong with my eyesight [noparse];)[/noparse], but I know it's easier to read if it's bigger sometimes.
From many years experience of having people throw randomly formatted junk at me by e-mail or forum, or IM, or whatever. Cutting and Pasting anything from Word is _always_ a bad idea. It just inserts all kinds of corrupt junk that it thinks is a good idea at the time.
You could do much better to use Notepad or Wordpad if you wanted to compose outside the browser.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
I wonder if all this side-effect MESS is a conspiracy by Firefox to make IE users switch over. Or is it the other way round????
Anyway.... If you do not mind I am going to continue to use bolding and on occasion color too..... I wonder why you find that objectionable though?
Why would the forum editor provide tools to control these things if people are never going to use them? Why not just have a simple pure text editor and be done with it. Obviously there is a demand.
As I explained in a previous posting to you, I find that these things help in pointing out salient points that I want to draw attention to. Also they help in making the text more akin to a conversation. In a conversation people tend to use hand and facial gestures as well as tonal intonations to stress and annotate their speech which tends to make the conversation more interesting as well as·giving more meaning to the speech.
Forexample....in the above paragraph if you read nothing but the bolded text....you would get the entire point of the paragraph that I·wished to convey.
I actually explained all this in detail in the above referred to posting. I did refrain from annotating it in any way. So it seems to me that you missed the points I was trying to make precisely because I did not stress them.
So here is the posting again....but this time I am going to use a bit of bolding. Please try to ONLY read the bolded text and see if you can figure out what I am trying to say by just reading these bits of the text....if you do then that proves·my point...no??
======================
I am very sorry you perceive my style as shouting.....I did not mean it like that at all.....As a manager
I used to get tons of reports and things to read and tended to skim read....this of course resulted
in some things getting overlooked or misunderstood or not appreciated for what they were.....
So as a result I got into the habit of asking people to highlight the salient points in some way or another
using highlighter or bolding or or or.....
I find that life in our age is too fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every
line in every paragraph......unfortunately this dilutes the point.....
Also when you talk with people you do inflections and gestures that help the interlocutor to get the
meaning better.....I find that by stressing certain words you can imitate this gesturing or stressing
in speech but in writing instead......
So if you have a better method for doing this kind of talking-written-word I would appreciate the
suggestion.
Notice how I refrained from doing anything in this text and how I think it lacks any kind of indicator to what
parts I think are important or what parts I want you to pay more attention to.
This forces you to do your own interpretation which mostly may not be mine....or at least you are also
forced to read the entire thing without any skimming which again is not what I intend you to do....
BradC said...
From many years experience of having people throw randomly formatted junk at me by e-mail or forum, or IM, or whatever. Cutting and Pasting anything from Word is _always_ a bad idea. It just inserts all kinds of corrupt junk that it thinks is a good idea at the time.
You could do much better to use Notepad or Wordpad if you wanted to compose outside the browser.
Hi Brad,
Yes....I noticed that about MSWord when I used it to make Web Pages.....the amount of JUNK it inserts in the final HTML code is mind staggering.
I will definitely not use cut and paste from it any longer.....sorry about the inconvenience up till now....
Thanks for the help...this has been a good exercise overall.
Yes....I noticed that about MSWord when I used it to make Web Pages.....the amount of JUNK it inserts in the final HTML code is mind staggering.
Yeah, years ago when I first started playing with HTML and I was using Word95 I noticed it had some form of html exporter. After looking at the code it produced I just gave up in disgust.
Word is a "word processor" (and a pretty inconsistent and average one at that), but like excel, people continually try to use it for stuff it was just not designed to do. And I swear, the next person who sends me a party invitation done in powerpoint....
Now days I use Bluefish for editing html (because it was easy and it was there), gedit and vim for most other stuff and OpenOffice for my reports (having a native pdf export without having to buy Acrobat or use Windows is gold).
I understand where you are coming from with using bold text, it's just where you bold words, I emphasize with either _boo_ or *boo*. It's kinda the same thing but works in all mediums that use plain ASCII (like E-mail).
It's like reading books. If you had to read a book that had changing font sizes, differently coloured and styled words on each page it'd make your eyes bleed. A bit like the old html <blink> tag. I guess I don't understand boldly emphasizing sentences because "life is fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every line in every paragraph". That just comes across as pandering to the lazy, to the detriment of people who *do* want to read what you wrote, but end up not doing so because it makes their head explode.
I confess I read most posts quite carefully if they interest me, but if they are littered with style changes I often find it too distracting and irritating to actually even skim.
SamMishal said...
Thanks for the help...this has been a good exercise overall.
No worries. The day we stop learning is the day they start to fill in the hole. _AND_ It'd be a very boring world if we were all the same. A little open minded, intelligent discourse (read argument) broadens both parties minds.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Sam: I have no objection to the use of bold, large, coloured or otherwise enhanced text. However I would point out that the overuse of such techniques does tend to make their effect ware thin, overuse makes them just, well, normal. Carried to extreme overuse actually defeats the authors intended purpose as it distracts the readers attention from the underlying meaning and flow of ideas.
The English language is rich enough that it can convey any required emphasis with out any formatting tricks. I'm sure that my English teacher in school would have marked my home work down immediately if he saw my work was covered on upper case, large and coloured text. He would argue that the use of felt tip pens to highlight the meaning into the text indicates a failure to use the language correctly. As a minimum he would have put it down as being lazy.
From a aesthetic point of view, paragraphs interrupted by excessive frills makes the page look very messy. That of course is a purely personal judgement.
Turning to your example. You say "...if you read nothing but the bolded text....you would get the entire point of the paragraph that I wished to convey."
When we do that to the referenced paragraph we get: "I find that stress annotate giving more meaning"
I have two points to make here. Firstly the resulting phrase is gibberish. Secondly, if it did come out as a conveying the entire point of the paragraph as you say, then why on earth is the rest of the non-bold text there in the first place?
Ultimately this all comes down to personal preference so we may have to continue to disagree. Insert big, coloured, animated, winking smiley image here.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
BradC said... but like excel, people continually try to use it for stuff it was just not designed to do.
That used to drive me CRAZY.....there is many a company to which I was called to FIX a project due to some moron programming a database in Excel.
BradC said...I understand where you are coming from with using bold text, it's just where you bold words, I emphasize with either _boo_ or *boo*. It's kinda the same thing but works in all mediums that use plain ASCII (like E-mail).
Now.....that is called doing things at the LEAST common denominator level......progress is progress and things go on. It seems to me that *bolding* things as opposed to bolding things is backwards and actually annoying....just as you find the bolded one objectionable I find the starred one annoying.
It seems to me that the programmers of all these forum editors and other editors would not have gone to the extent of implementing text formatters if people are just going to do things for the lowest common denominator technologies and not utilize them.
Why do Programming editors such as Spin’s bold and color things? I get at least 10 requests a day from RobotBASIC users asking me to do just that for the IDE editor in RB. It seems that highlighting and bolding things is WANTED and HELPFUL.
If we all were to keep things to the lowest common denominator we would all be still using text editors to browse the internet. Just because Firefox gets confused by some editing tags does not mean that the MAJORITY of the people have to TRUDGE through uninspiring boring and actually unreadable postings.
I suggest that·all Firefox users switch over to IE which apparently is·more versatile and is tolerant of more editing styles and is capable of displaying them without confusion and without annoying the reader.
BradC said...·I guess I don't understand boldly emphasizing sentences because "life is fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every line in every paragraph". That just comes across as pandering to the lazy, to the detriment of people who *do* want to read what you wrote, but end up not doing so because it makes their head explode.
Hi Brad,
I don’t see why you are so much against the lazy. The wheel was invented by a lazy guy who did not want to DRAG things around. The·Elevator,· Sail Boat (no rowing), Garage door opener, Remote Control, Microwave (my personal life savior), Printing Press (no scribing), McDonalds (this one maybe is not so good), Calculator (no slide rules) and and and….I can cite hundreds of other inventions that pander to the lazy.
When DOS was being slowly replaced by Windows, I used to wonder why are people so lazy so as to not want to type a few words to get things done. What is all that crazy stuff about wanting to press on a few icons to run programs? How lazy is that, why not just type the name of the program including the directory path and not be sissies?
Well, it seems that pandering to the lazy has made billions for MS and other people who came out with means and products that cater for the less·energetic ….I guess it might behoove me to do the same.
My godfather always used to say to me: ···· “Son, you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time….. ····· BUT… son….if you can figure out a way of pleasing a majority of the people the majority of the time then… son…you would be on a winner”
In the case of Firefox vs. IE I declare IE the winner on the basis of overwhelming evidence.
Firefox seems to do a great job at serving a minority of the people most of the time, and a majority of the people badly, while IE does a great job at serving a majority of the people most of the time and a minority of the people much of the time.
When using IE one can read and create and edit postings done in Firefox as well as ones done in IE and one can do so adequately and with no problems. On the other hand Firefox seems to mess up postings by the systems used by the majority of the people and will only display stuff that it likes as evidenced by the exercise in the preceding postings.
Yes, I will refrain from cutting and pasting from MSWord so as to not confuse and befuddle the poor Firefox out of respect for its users….but… I will not switch over to using it since in my opinion, and as the evidence has proven, it is an inferior product. I don’t think the mess described in the previous postings is the fault of MSWord, I think it was due to the limitation of Firefox. IE is not confused by stuff produced by Firefox or MSWord or Open Office. It seems to me that IE is the more versatile of the two products.
In my opinion this elitist snobbery towards everything by Microsoft is just misguided. MS does a good job of serving a majority of the people the majority of the time, while Linux and the Mac do a good job of catering for the haughty “expert” minority.
I don’t want this to deteriorate into a Mac vs Linux vs Windows and MS…..it is tantamount to being a religious dogma when it comes to this issue.
Being a simple common peasant I will always shy away from superciliousness. I am neither a GURU nor a Genius, and I look upon computers as a tool not as my religion. I just want to use the computer that is easiest to set up and use and has the tools I need, I don’t care who makes it or what OS it uses.
Just like the BS2 caters for the normal guy who needs an effective and easy to use microcontroller regardless of the fact that it uses the humble (in some snob’s opinion) BASIC. · Just like SPIN caters for the normal guy who is not a Guru C programmer and does not care whether if it is called Object Oriented or Object Based or Modular….or whatever MEANINGLESS other name some tight malodorous-corporeal-creviced· troglodytes want to call it….we just want to use it no matter how they Objectify (pun intended) and Pigeon Hole it since it is easy and effective. ·
SamMishal said...
MS does a good job of serving a majority of the people the majority of the time, while Linux and the Mac do a good job of catering for the haughty “expert” minority.
Nitpicking your argument: I have a good friend who knows almost nothing about technology, but she loves her Ubuntu laptop over the Vista that it used to have...
SamMishal said...
or whatever MEANINGLESS other name some tight malodorous-corporeal-creviced troglodytes want to call it….we just want to use it no matter how they Objectify (pun intended) and Pigeon Hole it since it is easy and effective.
Terminology is extremely important in engineering and the sciences, especially computer science since we can't really touch or see what we work with. Each term has to be clearly defined so as to eliminate confusion or long winded explanations every time it was used. Could you imagine if each computer language had a different word for the common "if/else" statement?
Hence the importance of defining the term Object Oriented Programming with respect to the Propeller, and why this topic keeps surfacing. People see OOP for the Propeller and assume that it means what it traditionally means in the mainstream world, then realize it is almost nothing like it.
heater said...
Turning to your example. You say "...if you read nothing but the bolded text....you would get the entire point of the paragraph that I wished to convey."
When we do that to the referenced paragraph we get: "I find that stress annotate giving more meaning"
I have two points to make here. Firstly the resulting phrase is gibberish. Secondly, if it did come out as a conveying the entire point of the paragraph as you say, then why on earth is the rest of the non-bold text there in the first place?
Ultimately this all comes down to personal preference so we may have to continue to disagree. Insert big, coloured, animated, winking smiley image here.
Hi Heater,
Have you ever picked a book·in which·you REMEMBER seeing a pertinent and useful bit of information when you were reading it a while back and now no matter what you do you cannot find it in the text not even using the index or the table of contents or by skimming again through the areas you thought the text was in. Thus, unless you were willing to sit down again to read the entire text all over you just MISS OUT on the information.
I read copious amounts of books and reports. I usually find in these documents many things I would like to refer to in the future. To that end I pickup a highlighter and highlight SALIENT points in the various paragraphs that I want to remember. In some cases I may even mark off·some pages as well.
Later when I open the book and SEARCH through it I can flick the pages to the highlighted areas. I then stop at each highlight and read the highlighted bits. This helps jog my memory as to the content of the paragraph and I can either skip that paragraph as being not the one I want or if it is the one I want I stop and re-read the paragraph carefully so as to get the DETAILS of the paragraph.
When I used to manage projects and had numerous reports that I had to read, I asked the writers of these reports to do the same. Not because I was lazy, but because I was BUSY and I did not want the risk of MISSING parts that the writer of the report thought were IMPORTANT (but again there is nothing wrong with being lazy…see the other postings).
I did not mean it for you to TAKE it LITERALLY that the bolded text IS THE meaning but that it is an INDICATOR of the meaning and then you can read the rest of the paragraph for MORE DETAILS when you attention had been grabbed by the SUMMARY points of the paragraph.
By using the bolding and stressing formats the document can be SELF SUMMARIZING.
But I guess unless you have to read an overwhelming amounts of text a day you may not appreciate this TIME SAVING TRICK.
Again....why are the editors that Bold and COLOR syntax so popular....is it maybe because they give FEEDBACK and QUICK VISUAL QUEUES.
heater said...Ultimately this all comes down to personal preference so we may have to continue to disagree. Insert big, coloured, animated, winking smiley image here.
I agree.....see we do agree on many things after all.... (see I even DID insert the face...but no winking )
Again...just in case you missed it...here is what at least one other CLEVER person thinks (bolding and coloring are mine)
iDave said... I didn't think Sam was shouting and would bet most won't. When people overuse exclamation marks!!!! - I get that as shouting and annoys me to no end or use capitals throughout an entire entry or heaven forbid BOLD all the way thru. He's just putting stress on certain points he's making.(mostly thoughtful and not a shouting rant) Same as the textbooks we all have read. There's bold, italicized and all flavor of formats in those teaching books. I never put them down cause I thought they were SHOUTING at me...maybe because I was lazy. lol·
SRLM said...·but she loves her Ubuntu laptop over the Vista that it used to have...
I agree with her too....Vista is atrocious...I bought a laptop with Vista preinstalled and I uninstalled it and installed XP instead because I hated Vista too.
SRLM said...·Terminology is extremely important in engineering and the sciences, especially computer science since we can't really touch or see what we work with. Each term has to be clearly defined so as to eliminate confusion or long winded explanations every time it was used. Could you imagine if each computer language had a different word for the common "if/else" statement?
Hence the importance of defining the term Object Oriented Programming with respect to the Propeller, and why this topic keeps surfacing. People see OOP for the Propeller and assume that it means what it traditionally means in the mainstream world, then realize it is almost nothing like it.
As a person who has a few degrees two of which are Engineering Science and Computer Science, I agree with you to an extent. However, one of my other degrees is Electronic Engineering and from that and from teaching I·know of·many people to whom these terminologies mean nothing, serve nothing and matter nothing.
Most engineers want to engineer and do not care much about terminologies beyond what they serve as a common ground to read books and publications. Most electronic engineers know very little about Computer Science.
The Propeller and Spin is more of an EE tool than it is a·CS product.
Most EEs·care very little about CS terminologies and most CSs understand little of EE.·Many, however, understand both and as one of these people I tell you I really do not care about nitpicking of terminologies in·either discipline.
A while back many CSs argued·vigorously·that C++ is not a REAL OOP. Many still till today refuse to admit Delphi into the OOP club. There has been many such battles about one aspect of a CS terminology or another.
Anyway Parallax claims Spin to be Object Based which it is...since it uses objects...unless you want to·adopt the stricter definition and call objects only as classes...A point·which many CS people are still arguing about.
As an EE I really do not care what CS wants to say about Spin, I just want to use it. And as a CS I do not care about whether Spin is OOP or not I think it is a Great Language and I want to use it.
As an EE who is also a CS I can see the beauty, utility, ease and power of Spin to be a tool for doing practical useful things that would have been very hard to do with other combinations of Electronic Engineering and Computer Science.
One of the important fields in CS not too long ago was Parallel Processing. Spin+Propeller makes research into·this subject·a very attainable goal. I would have given an arm back in the 80s when I was doing a PhD to have had something like the Propeller without Spin, but with Spin I would have given a leg too.
As a person with degrees in both CS and EE I declare Spin a great product from either point of view…..
I think SPIN+Propeller+PASM is an·EE triumph and a CS marvel.
Comments
posting....so either you must be inserting it deliberately or there is something going wrong when you press the Quote icon on you browser???
·
If it is deliberate then WHAT do you mean???
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/17/2010 2:31:36 AM GMT
and have done many BIG projects with it in the good old days of Turbo Pascal.
Your link may help me rekindle some old memories.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
·
It's not deliberate. Your posts contain so much formatting that quoting them verbatim causes all sorts of weird stuff to appear. I got sick of cleaning all the formatting out when composing a reply, so I just leave it as is. The smileys are just a side effect of that I guess.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
They appear big and loud on my browser as if we are half blind and deaf.
It reminds me of how I sometimes use bold and italic but Way More INTENSE.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
VIRAND, If you spent as much time SPINNING as you do Trolling the Forums,
you'd have tons of awesome code to post! (Note to self)
Here is a posting that I am doing that is Quoting the very same posting of·mine that you quoted. As you·see there ARE NO smiley faces.....(see below)
So there must be something wrong with your Browser.....since mine is not inserting any smiley faces as yours is doing.....I quoted the exact same posting which has the same formatting.
I actually do not do any formatting other than Bolding. So I am not sure what is going·amiss·on your side.
But I also have noticed that you DID·EDIT the quote.....since my quote below does not match your quote in content. I just pushed the Quote button on the forum and the below is what I got.
So I can only draw the conclusion that·it is either your editing as well as your browser or just your editing or just your browser·that is inserting the smiley faces.....not my formatting....since as you see from the quote below there are no faces and I·used the very same action you have done to quote my posting. I also am intrigued as to why would you not do a few more strokes to edit the smiley faces out when they appear since you are already editing the quote any how....but I guess we all miss some things.
In any case, I am glad that it is not intentional....I was starting to get offended in that I was thinking that you are giggling at my posting especially with the slightly CONDESCENDING tone of the accompanying reply.
I myself am guilty of sometimes coming across as a Smug Condescending Smart Aleck even though it never is my intentions to do so. I guess it is because sometimes I tend to assume that people do not necessarily know what I know because of my age as well as being too used to TEACHING pupils.
In the light of all this I will opt to not take offense, especially in the knowledge that you are a highly educated and civilized person and only immature uneducated people tend to giggle and snigger at other people out of their inferiority complex or maybe superiority complex but either complex is·a result of ignorance.
I know that you are definitely not an ignorant person from having read many of your postings and from following some of your work. I am also assuming you would have done the same in my case. But here I go again assuming things about other people.
P.S. It might be something with the Mac systems that is casuing all that detailing of formatting to come on your machine.
Becasue as you see I have quoted the very same post and there is none of that.....?????
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
·
I am sorry if you perceive my style as loud. This issue has actually come·up before and it was settled (I thought).
Here is what another forum member said (some bolding is mine) But also please refer to this postings to see what I say about the issue.
I use Microsoft word to write my postings so as to make sure I have correct spelling. Being an old man I was educated·old school·and it was hammered into me to never·write incorrectly. So in that spirit I use MSWord to help me maintain my writing as close as possible to proper English and when I finish I cut and paste the text into the forum editor. The forum editor·seems to·use a different font for that cut and pasted text for some reason.
However, I actually found that to be a pleasant side effect. Again, being a·geriatric I AM half blind and definitely almost half deaf too. Even though I do not see (pun intended) how when one is reading something he can perceive it as loud.
Therefore, being half blind I found the slightly bigger font which the forum editor seems to use when I cut and paste from MSWord actually a pleasant thing since I do not have to SQUINT and bring my head closer to the screen to be able to read it.
However, PLEASE if you can take a Screen Shot of my postings that you found so LOUD and PM it to me I would be grateful. I would like to see what it looks like on your browser. Since on my browser (I use IE) does not in any way produce such an objectionable effect.
P.S. You may have noticed that I have not used MSWord this time·and typed the posting in the forum editor directly....so I hope there are no spelling errors...blame it on the editor not·me if there are any.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/17/2010 10:43:49 AM GMT
I have been wondering about this for some time and now VIRAND also. Your posts are very often in a large font with liberal use of bold and colour. This is a shame as it is irritating and detracts from the interesting content.
Is it really so that you don't add all that stuff?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
Actually Sam, I never *edit* any quotes other than to remove content irrelevant to the context of my reply. For your interest I've attached a screen shot of the formatting I get whenever I reply to any of your posts including microsoft specific font specifications, bolding and font size specifications.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Very Very interesting....thanks for the screen shot....
I actually see where the smiley faces were generated....it is the stuff between the < >.
It·looks like it is caused by·the fact that I cut and paste the text from MSWord combined with the MAC browser (Firefox?). I definitely do not get anything like this on my browser· when I use the forum editor and do quoting.....Intriguing...!!!!
Well, I·now have learnt not to use MSWord and just type the text directly into the forum editor....
I wonder if other people who use Linux and Mac machines are getting the same thing. Also does anyone who uses Firefox on Windows get the same or is it to do with the OS too?? I guess I now have to fire up my Linux machine and view all my postings with Firefox to see what they look like.
In any case....this has been interesting... I now know not to cut and paste out of MSWord. Ugh...I have to learn how to spell I guess
Thanks Brad.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
·
To solve the vision problems and be sure of spelling you are using MS Word then cutting and pasting into the forum.
Quite a reasonable idea except it leads to the chaos that is the finished post that we all see. I have not use Windows for so many years I forgot what a mess it can create. This is definitely a case of "What You See Is NOT What You Get", WYSINWYG.
Could I make some suggestions:
1) Use FireFox instead of Internet Explorer.
2) FireFox has a built in spell checker. I rely on it for my forum posts[noparse]:)[/noparse]
3) FireFox can display the forum pages with a larger font, if only temporarily while editing your posts, just by hitting Control and +.
Go back to normal size with Control and - when done. Perhaps IE can do this as well, I have no idea.
4) Use the "Preview before posting" button, then you can see what you will get.
I'm glad the mystery is solved. I could not believe you were doing all that on purpose.
Edit: Oops, soory again, you are using a MAC not Windows. Well I guess my suggestions still stand.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
Heater has a couple of very good suggestions there. Firefox has a built in spell checker (or it interfaces with the spell check service the OS provides - either way). I don't use it to correct, but I know it can. It certainly lets me know with a wiggly red underline if I've mis-spelled something so I can change it.
Likewise, the ctrl - +/- keys to make the whole text larger or smaller are very useful. I use an 11" screen at 1376x768 with font's displayed at about 9 point, so there is nothing wrong with my eyesight [noparse];)[/noparse], but I know it's easier to read if it's bigger sometimes.
From many years experience of having people throw randomly formatted junk at me by e-mail or forum, or IM, or whatever. Cutting and Pasting anything from Word is _always_ a bad idea. It just inserts all kinds of corrupt junk that it thinks is a good idea at the time.
You could do much better to use Notepad or Wordpad if you wanted to compose outside the browser.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
I wonder if all this side-effect MESS is a conspiracy by Firefox to make IE users switch over.
Anyway.... If you do not mind I am going to continue to use bolding and on occasion color too..... I wonder why you find that objectionable though?
Why would the forum editor provide tools to control these things if people are never going to use them? Why not just have a simple pure text editor and be done with it. Obviously there is a demand.
As I explained in a previous posting to you, I find that these things help in pointing out salient points that I want to draw attention to. Also they help in making the text more akin to a conversation. In a conversation people tend to use hand and facial gestures as well as tonal intonations to stress and annotate their speech which tends to make the conversation more interesting as well as·giving more meaning to the speech.
Forexample....in the above paragraph if you read nothing but the bolded text....you would get the entire point of the paragraph that I·wished to convey.
I actually explained all this in detail in the above referred to posting. I did refrain from annotating it in any way. So it seems to me that you missed the points I was trying to make precisely because I did not stress them.
So here is the posting again....but this time I am going to use a bit of bolding. Please try to ONLY read the bolded text and see if you can figure out what I am trying to say by just reading these bits of the text....if you do then that proves·my point...no??
======================
I am very sorry you perceive my style as shouting.....I did not mean it like that at all.....As a manager
I used to get tons of reports and things to read and tended to skim read....this of course resulted
in some things getting overlooked or misunderstood or not appreciated for what they were.....
So as a result I got into the habit of asking people to highlight the salient points in some way or another
using highlighter or bolding or or or.....
I find that life in our age is too fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every
line in every paragraph......unfortunately this dilutes the point.....
Also when you talk with people you do inflections and gestures that help the interlocutor to get the
meaning better.....I find that by stressing certain words you can imitate this gesturing or stressing
in speech but in writing instead......
So if you have a better method for doing this kind of talking-written-word I would appreciate the
suggestion.
Notice how I refrained from doing anything in this text and how I think it lacks any kind of indicator to what
parts I think are important or what parts I want you to pay more attention to.
This forces you to do your own interpretation which mostly may not be mine....or at least you are also
forced to read the entire thing without any skimming which again is not what I intend you to do....
======================
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
·
Yes....I noticed that about MSWord when I used it to make Web Pages.....the amount of JUNK it inserts in the final HTML code is mind staggering.
I will definitely not use cut and paste from it any longer.....sorry about the inconvenience up till now....
Thanks for the help...this has been a good exercise overall.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
·
Leon
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Yeah, years ago when I first started playing with HTML and I was using Word95 I noticed it had some form of html exporter. After looking at the code it produced I just gave up in disgust.
Word is a "word processor" (and a pretty inconsistent and average one at that), but like excel, people continually try to use it for stuff it was just not designed to do. And I swear, the next person who sends me a party invitation done in powerpoint....
Now days I use Bluefish for editing html (because it was easy and it was there), gedit and vim for most other stuff and OpenOffice for my reports (having a native pdf export without having to buy Acrobat or use Windows is gold).
I understand where you are coming from with using bold text, it's just where you bold words, I emphasize with either _boo_ or *boo*. It's kinda the same thing but works in all mediums that use plain ASCII (like E-mail).
It's like reading books. If you had to read a book that had changing font sizes, differently coloured and styled words on each page it'd make your eyes bleed. A bit like the old html <blink> tag. I guess I don't understand boldly emphasizing sentences because "life is fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every line in every paragraph". That just comes across as pandering to the lazy, to the detriment of people who *do* want to read what you wrote, but end up not doing so because it makes their head explode.
I confess I read most posts quite carefully if they interest me, but if they are littered with style changes I often find it too distracting and irritating to actually even skim.
No worries. The day we stop learning is the day they start to fill in the hole. _AND_ It'd be a very boring world if we were all the same. A little open minded, intelligent discourse (read argument) broadens both parties minds.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
The English language is rich enough that it can convey any required emphasis with out any formatting tricks. I'm sure that my English teacher in school would have marked my home work down immediately if he saw my work was covered on upper case, large and coloured text. He would argue that the use of felt tip pens to highlight the meaning into the text indicates a failure to use the language correctly. As a minimum he would have put it down as being lazy.
From a aesthetic point of view, paragraphs interrupted by excessive frills makes the page look very messy. That of course is a purely personal judgement.
Turning to your example. You say "...if you read nothing but the bolded text....you would get the entire point of the paragraph that I wished to convey."
When we do that to the referenced paragraph we get: "I find that stress annotate giving more meaning"
I have two points to make here. Firstly the resulting phrase is gibberish. Secondly, if it did come out as a conveying the entire point of the paragraph as you say, then why on earth is the rest of the non-bold text there in the first place?
Ultimately this all comes down to personal preference so we may have to continue to disagree. Insert big, coloured, animated, winking smiley image here.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
Now.....that is called doing things at the LEAST common denominator level......progress is progress and things go on. It seems to me that *bolding* things as opposed to bolding things is backwards and actually annoying....just as you find the bolded one objectionable I find the starred one annoying.
It seems to me that the programmers of all these forum editors and other editors would not have gone to the extent of implementing text formatters if people are just going to do things for the lowest common denominator technologies and not utilize them.
Why do Programming editors such as Spin’s bold and color things? I get at least 10 requests a day from RobotBASIC users asking me to do just that for the IDE editor in RB. It seems that highlighting and bolding things is WANTED and HELPFUL.
If we all were to keep things to the lowest common denominator we would all be still using text editors to browse the internet. Just because Firefox gets confused by some editing tags does not mean that the MAJORITY of the people have to TRUDGE through uninspiring boring and actually unreadable postings.
I suggest that·all Firefox users switch over to IE which apparently is·more versatile and is tolerant of more editing styles and is capable of displaying them without confusion and without annoying the reader.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/18/2010 1:50:58 PM GMT
I don’t see why you are so much against the lazy. The wheel was invented by a lazy guy who did not want to DRAG things around. The·Elevator,· Sail Boat (no rowing), Garage door opener, Remote Control, Microwave (my personal life savior), Printing Press (no scribing), McDonalds (this one maybe is not so good), Calculator (no slide rules) and and and….I can cite hundreds of other inventions that pander to the lazy.
When DOS was being slowly replaced by Windows, I used to wonder why are people so lazy so as to not want to type a few words to get things done. What is all that crazy stuff about wanting to press on a few icons to run programs? How lazy is that, why not just type the name of the program including the directory path and not be sissies?
Well, it seems that pandering to the lazy has made billions for MS and other people who came out with means and products that cater for the less·energetic ….I guess it might behoove me to do the same.
My godfather always used to say to me:
···· “Son, you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time…..
····· BUT… son….if you can figure out a way of pleasing a majority of the people the majority of the time then… son…you would be on a winner”
In the case of Firefox vs. IE I declare IE the winner on the basis of overwhelming evidence.
Firefox seems to do a great job at serving a minority of the people most of the time, and a majority of the people badly, while IE does a great job at serving a majority of the people most of the time and a minority of the people much of the time.
When using IE one can read and create and edit postings done in Firefox as well as ones done in IE and one can do so adequately and with no problems. On the other hand Firefox seems to mess up postings by the systems used by the majority of the people and will only display stuff that it likes as evidenced by the exercise in the preceding postings.
Yes, I will refrain from cutting and pasting from MSWord so as to not confuse and befuddle the poor Firefox out of respect for its users….but… I will not switch over to using it since in my opinion, and as the evidence has proven, it is an inferior product. I don’t think the mess described in the previous postings is the fault of MSWord, I think it was due to the limitation of Firefox. IE is not confused by stuff produced by Firefox or MSWord or Open Office. It seems to me that IE is the more versatile of the two products.
In my opinion this elitist snobbery towards everything by Microsoft is just misguided. MS does a good job of serving a majority of the people the majority of the time, while Linux and the Mac do a good job of catering for the haughty “expert” minority.
I don’t want this to deteriorate into a Mac vs Linux vs Windows and MS…..it is tantamount to being a religious dogma when it comes to this issue.
Being a simple common peasant I will always shy away from superciliousness. I am neither a GURU nor a Genius, and I look upon computers as a tool not as my religion. I just want to use the computer that is easiest to set up and use and has the tools I need, I don’t care who makes it or what OS it uses.
Just like the BS2 caters for the normal guy who needs an effective and easy to use microcontroller regardless of the fact that it uses the humble (in some snob’s opinion) BASIC.
·
Just like SPIN caters for the normal guy who is not a Guru C programmer and does not care whether if it is called Object Oriented or Object Based or Modular….or whatever MEANINGLESS other name some tight malodorous-corporeal-creviced· troglodytes want to call it….we just want to use it no matter how they Objectify (pun intended) and Pigeon Hole it since it is easy and effective.
·
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/18/2010 4:25:26 PM GMT
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Complexi soccer robot video: Youtube
Robot Simulator for Lego Mindstorms: Website and download
Post Edited (Robot Freak) : 1/18/2010 2:56:47 PM GMT
Nitpicking your argument: I have a good friend who knows almost nothing about technology, but she loves her Ubuntu laptop over the Vista that it used to have...
Terminology is extremely important in engineering and the sciences, especially computer science since we can't really touch or see what we work with. Each term has to be clearly defined so as to eliminate confusion or long winded explanations every time it was used. Could you imagine if each computer language had a different word for the common "if/else" statement?
Hence the importance of defining the term Object Oriented Programming with respect to the Propeller, and why this topic keeps surfacing. People see OOP for the Propeller and assume that it means what it traditionally means in the mainstream world, then realize it is almost nothing like it.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Powered by enthusiasm
Have you ever picked a book·in which·you REMEMBER seeing a pertinent and useful bit of information when you were reading it a while back and now no matter what you do you cannot find it in the text not even using the index or the table of contents or by skimming again through the areas you thought the text was in. Thus, unless you were willing to sit down again to read the entire text all over you just MISS OUT on the information.
I read copious amounts of books and reports. I usually find in these documents many things I would like to refer to in the future. To that end I pickup a highlighter and highlight SALIENT points in the various paragraphs that I want to remember. In some cases I may even mark off·some pages as well.
Later when I open the book and SEARCH through it I can flick the pages to the highlighted areas. I then stop at each highlight and read the highlighted bits. This helps jog my memory as to the content of the paragraph and I can either skip that paragraph as being not the one I want or if it is the one I want I stop and re-read the paragraph carefully so as to get the DETAILS of the paragraph.
When I used to manage projects and had numerous reports that I had to read, I asked the writers of these reports to do the same. Not because I was lazy, but because I was BUSY and I did not want the risk of MISSING parts that the writer of the report thought were IMPORTANT (but again there is nothing wrong with being lazy…see the other postings).
I did not mean it for you to TAKE it LITERALLY that the bolded text IS THE meaning but that it is an INDICATOR of the meaning and then you can read the rest of the paragraph for MORE DETAILS when you attention had been grabbed by the SUMMARY points of the paragraph.
By using the bolding and stressing formats the document can be SELF SUMMARIZING.
But I guess unless you have to read an overwhelming amounts of text a day you may not appreciate this TIME SAVING TRICK.
Again....why are the editors that Bold and COLOR syntax so popular....is it maybe because they give FEEDBACK and QUICK VISUAL QUEUES.
I agree.....see we do agree on many things after all....
Again...just in case you missed it...here is what at least one other CLEVER person thinks (bolding and coloring are mine)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/19/2010 12:13:34 PM GMT
As a person who has a few degrees two of which are Engineering Science and Computer Science, I agree with you to an extent. However, one of my other degrees is Electronic Engineering and from that and from teaching I·know of·many people to whom these terminologies mean nothing, serve nothing and matter nothing.
Most engineers want to engineer and do not care much about terminologies beyond what they serve as a common ground to read books and publications. Most electronic engineers know very little about Computer Science.
The Propeller and Spin is more of an EE tool than it is a·CS product.
Most EEs·care very little about CS terminologies and most CSs understand little of EE.·Many, however, understand both and as one of these people I tell you I really do not care about nitpicking of terminologies in·either discipline.
A while back many CSs argued·vigorously·that C++ is not a REAL OOP. Many still till today refuse to admit Delphi into the OOP club. There has been many such battles about one aspect of a CS terminology or another.
Anyway Parallax claims Spin to be Object Based which it is...since it uses objects...unless you want to·adopt the stricter definition and call objects only as classes...A point·which many CS people are still arguing about.
As an EE I really do not care what CS wants to say about Spin, I just want to use it. And as a CS I do not care about whether Spin is OOP or not I think it is a Great Language and I want to use it.
As an EE who is also a CS I can see the beauty, utility, ease and power of Spin to be a tool for doing practical useful things that would have been very hard to do with other combinations of Electronic Engineering and Computer Science.
One of the important fields in CS not too long ago was Parallel Processing. Spin+Propeller makes research into·this subject·a very attainable goal. I would have given an arm back in the 80s when I was doing a PhD to have had something like the Propeller without Spin, but with Spin I would have given a leg too.
As a person with degrees in both CS and EE I declare Spin a great product from either point of view…..
I think SPIN+Propeller+PASM is an·EE triumph and a CS marvel.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Samuel
www.RobotBASIC.com
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 1/20/2010 4:57:37 PM GMT