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Electronics Question: Starter Motor(Car) - Engine Started or not? — Parallax Forums

Electronics Question: Starter Motor(Car) - Engine Started or not?

Harrison H JonesHarrison H Jones Posts: 22
edited 2009-12-02 03:37 in General Discussion
Hello Parallax Forum Members,

This question/problem came up during a conversation I had earlier with a friend:

How do the cars with 1 button automatic start tell when to turn off the starter motor as to not burn it up?


My solution was to put some kind of simple oscilloscope that gave voltage direction(normal vs reversed) outputs based one two wires going to either side of the starter motor. When the motor was starting the engine it would show a "normal" flow of voltage. When the engine finally kicked over and started running on it's own it would treat the motor as a generator and the oscilloscope should see a reverse voltage direction. When that happened the motor would be turned off.

Would this work? If so, is this how they do it or do they do it another way?

Comments

  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2009-12-01 00:01
    Harrison H Jones said...

    Would this work?

    No. A good number of starter motors have spring loaded pinions, so as soon as the flywheel is moving faster than the pinion it kicks back. If you hold the starter on at this point, the pinion just bounces off the flywheel teeth.
    Harrison H Jones said...
    If so, is this how they do it or do they do it another way?

    Measure the engine RPM. You are going to have quite a slow rotation while under starter. You will be able to see it start to fire by watching the flywheel start to speed up.

    Most starters I've seen simply set a threshold. RPM < Thresh - Cranking | RPM > Thresh - Running.

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  • fiveslofiveslo Posts: 40
    edited 2009-12-01 00:01
    I have a prototype remote car starter project using the SX/28, and have successfully read the tach signal from my diesel to stop the starter relay.· I believe that's how the OEMs do it...
  • Harrison H JonesHarrison H Jones Posts: 22
    edited 2009-12-01 02:57
    fiveslo - do you do it the same way BradC described?(RPM < Thresh - Cranking | RPM > Thresh - Running)
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-12-01 21:35
    Actually, I think the OEM's do it an easier way. They look at the voltage on the starter line. If the starter is using massive amps to turn the engine over, the voltage on the line will drop down. When the engine starts to take over (starts firing), the voltage on the line will jump to a higher level.

    You could actually do this with a simple voltage divider and adc.

    James L

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    Partner/Designer
    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services

    Are you addicted to technology or Micro-controllers..... then checkout the forums at Savage Circuits. Learn to build your own Gizmos!
  • Alan BradfordAlan Bradford Posts: 172
    edited 2009-12-02 00:07
    I actually think it is simpler than that..The computers in cars have Knock sensors to adjust the timing of the spark, and I heard that they use them to listen for the fuel ignition noise during startup.· Quiet not running...Big noise· Running...

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    Plasma Technologies
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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-12-02 00:13
    You could also sense the hash coming from the alternator and draw some conclusions from that. I once had a radar detector that I wanted to come on automatically when the engine was running. (It was mounted next to the rearview mirror, and the only power available there came from the dome light supply, which was not keyed to the ignition switch.) I built a circuit with an input AC-coupled to the +12V line, so that it was sensitive to noise on that line. When it detected noise, it turned on the power to the radar detector. When the noise went away, it turned it off.

    -Phil
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2009-12-02 00:14
    Alan Bradford said...
    I actually think it is simpler than that..The computers in cars have Knock sensors to adjust the timing of the spark, and I heard that they use them to listen for the fuel ignition noise during startup. Quiet not running...Big noise Running...

    Except the knock sensors are piezo devices that generally have a big fat analog processor applied to it before it gets to the processor, so it's listening for the specific knock signature for that block. It's not a microphone and should generate zero output until it hears the ring of a knock.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
  • fiveslofiveslo Posts: 40
    edited 2009-12-02 03:37
    Harrison H Jones said...
    fiveslo - do you do it the same way BradC described?(RPM < Thresh - Cranking | RPM > Thresh - Running)
    Yes, in my SX/28 prototype, I'm feeding the output of the pulse generator on the Pro Dev Board to a input on the SX and watching for a rise in pulses.· The same thing occurs in a start sequence of a car engine.· The only thing you have to beware of is the voltage of the signal being sampled.· Make sure its within the specs of your microcontroller.· This setup with the SX/28 works flawlessly. It allows full control of when to release the start relay. Kind of like when you start it by hand.· You could also watch for a voltage rise as others have suggested.· Basically check the voltage of the system first.· Then begin the start sequence.· Energize the accessory relay, wait maybe a second, then energize the starter relay, this is when the cranking of the engine will start, wait for voltage rise, then de-energize the starter relay, since the voltage rise "shows" the engine is running. Still like watching the pulses from the ECM better, but I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat [noparse]:)[/noparse]· The largest obstacle in all of this is the fact that most newer vehicles have some type of theft prevention system in them.· In my case, a GM truck, it uses PassKey, which basically is some type of resistance the·ECM wants, in order to enable the fuel and cranking system on the truck.· You can find all this information at www.the12volt.com look here for electrical diagrams for all types of cars and how to wire remote starters....
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