Thanks for the long post. I've been thinking about linux for a while as it does sound like my sort of OS. Up until now I've not had a spare box suitable but I've just inherited two so I think it is time to take the plunge. Given I'm already using BST for all my prop programming work, this should be a lot of fun.
This sounds really exciting and I think this could be the start of some big improvements in how many of us do things and think about PC-hardware computing. Being able to boot a stable work environment off a USB memory stick would be fantastic. I'm quite anxious to flee Babylon.
Dr_A said...
Maybe it is time to wipe the hard drive and plunge into the world of Linux? I'll be watching this thread with interest. What do you suggest first, get Ubuntu or something?
Might I suggest Debian's NetInst image? www.debian.org/distrib/ It loads the bare minimum, then pulls only the packages you want over the internet so you have the latest versions. I build a lot of Linux systems at work and that works best every time.
Might I suggest Debian's NetInst image? www.debian.org/distrib/ It loads the bare minimum, then pulls only the packages you want over the internet so you have the latest versions. I build a lot of Linux systems at work and that works best every time.
I'd normally agree with you, but I suspect for someone completely new to Linux this is a very fast way to confusion and frustration. As a complete greenhorn I'd start with something pre-rolled.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
Gear does not need java. Last time I tested it did not work with mono (2007 ?), it may now ?.
Some sort of hal (for USB sticks and so on) is a good idea. But I wouldn't mind using mount. I'm not afraid of the command line if The Midnight Commander stays by my side . No GUI based file manager comes close to the power mc has, or so I think.
Its been a month or so since I tried this, but it seemed to have worked. I am referring to Puppy Linux, you can move it to a thumb drive with no problem, and you are ready to run BST, as soon as it is downloaded. I am pretty sure I had no problem with BST getting started, and recognizing the port.
@Ale:
Indeed - every Linux user should know the mount command and at least the basic parameters.· [noparse][[/noparse]The only problem is when the user is new to Linux, coming from windows or mac. As you know, those two OS'es premount all mountable devices. (Yes, I know you can do this with win and the mac does it too --- but that's system programmer arcana [noparse]:)[/noparse]]
So a simple set of mount sample command lines is always good to have at hand.· Once you've done it a few times, it is pretty routine. MC is great - and a nice back-to-the-future thing too ... many of us will remember the old Norton Commander.
@Phil:
Good·find --- looks like it's worth some time checking out ... I'd like to second·taking a look around there.
@w8an:
Brad's right, imo. Net installs are·cool, but aren't necessarily easy to get working. The first time I tried it, it took me > 10 hours (ugh). I could have burned a gob of live CD's in that time :-|·
Yes, Knoppix is a nice Distro. (Personally, I like Parallel Knoppix/ Pelican HPC for a distributed system; a topic off track for now.)
Most of *all* of the distro's these days are available for burning to a live CD - you basically just take the drive image (called an "ISO image") and burn that directly to the CD using say Nero on windows, or your favorite CD burning software - but it must support using an ISO image.
@Chip:
glad you are interested --- nice to have you on board our little Linux Canoe - we'll get you out of Babylon and Speaking Penguinese before too long [noparse]:)[/noparse])
@Doc Acula:
you're welcome!· And it seems like it would be a good time to take that plunge indeed. Especially since we are doing this thread. I am sure any of us here can assist you (and anyone else) who's ready to jump into the pool.
RE distros:
Basically it comes down to three main families of distros: Slackware, Debian, Redhat Here's the Linux Family Tree
cheers all !
- Howard
Hmmm... now just where did I leave my Ancient Phoenician Windoze Manual ? ...
It's been mentioned before, but I'll put a plug in for DSL (Damned Small Linux) which fits on pretty much anything with at least 50MB of storage. I've even booted it from a business card sized CD that holds 50MB. It uses part of RAM for a virtual disk and runs fine from memory cards and memory sticks. I've not tried adding BST to it.
There's a slightly larger version of DSL that has some additional features, available from the same website.
The methods used for running from a virtual disk in RAM are adopted from Knoppix.
CRP: I been using Linux steadily for some good 10 years. I have (almost) no problems with it. But it changed quite a bit in the last years... no more startx and configuring the videocard and mode manually.
Any minimal system with dev tools is a good idea.
Rsadeika said...
Its been a month or so since I tried this, but it seemed to have worked. I am referring to Puppy Linux, you can move it to a thumb drive with no problem, and you are ready to run BST, as soon as it is downloaded. I am pretty sure I had no problem with BST getting started, and recognizing the port.
Just a thought
I have also used Puppy Linux on 4 PCs with the only issue being each one required a little tweaking for Ethernet and as they all had different cards so that would be expected.
A gentleman in South Africa had created a Puppy install with a MidiTzer Virtual Theater Pipe organ pre-configured and was very powerful. It loaded from CD and ran directly from RAM. No HD requirements.
If a wrapped package of Propeller tools, bells and whistles could be developed similar to the Puppy Linux which ran off a CD, Live CD (a real plus) or thumb drive it could be a winner.
Ray, yes -·Puppy works pretty well. Have had·good experiences with it as Wurlitzer has. Only one minor issue (for me) - the versions I've tried don't·seem to boot as·fast·as other skinny distros ... not sure why, but that·doesn't matter much probably for most folks - just boot and go grab a cup of coffee.· Nice that BST worked on it right out of the box. Do you have any other tools installed on Puppy that you have found useful for your MC and electronics work?
@Mike Green:
Mike, yes indeedy - DSL was mentioned before for several reasons. As you note, its Knoppix origins are·in turn, a flavor of Debian - which it seems we've been leaning towards· (a sense a survey looming ... [noparse]:)[/noparse]·
@Ale:
good to hear you've been using it so long. What distro's do you prefer?· (I hab' Knoppix auf deutshe benutz [noparse]:)[/noparse]
@Wurlitzer:
were any of your four machines running Puppy older boxes?
@ALL:
That's·an·important aspect we've not·discussed yet.· The Kernel itself can run on most older machines·using·very little memory and disk space.··For example, someone·gave·me a "junker" a few months back -·think it was a Pentium II with a whopping 128 megs and a beefy 5 gig harddrive [noparse]:)[/noparse])· It was D.O.A. ... scoped it ... power supply's on/off line (the yellow wire) had a bad solder joint. ... quick dab of the iron ... toss in the Parted Magic CD http://partedmagic.com/·to check out the drive ... then swapped that CD for a DSL install ... and a dead box bound for the garbage is saved to serve another day.
Such machines, though slow by todays standards, sure could be used for Prop Dev.· Think twice before you junk it!
And, any more suggestions on distros ?· Red Hat users please speak up ... have you tried making a skinny Hat?
I can certainly see how this approach would be advantageous in a school. For one, their cast-off lab computers can get a second life. Secondly, being diskless, they'd be extremely low-maintenance from an IT department's standpoint. I think the correct approach in this situation is for the system flash to be write-protected, with a second flash to used for project files.
One huge disadvantage I can see for anyone purveying such a system is this: An operating system like Windows virtualizes the hardware, so that all systems work alike for app software. The OS vendors have done all the hard work of dealing with hardware incompatibilities, and it's their responsibility to make sure their OS works on whatever you have. When proferring a Linux-on-flash system, along with the dev software, the hardware issues suddenly drop into your lap, not someone else's.
-Phil
Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 12/5/2009 9:46:22 PM GMT
Distros-Who's the target audience?-is this going to be something for a noobe to start with or someone with moderate linux knowledge?
As for a poll it would be a good idea for everyone to settle on a distro first so that way everyone is on the same page right from the start.
Is this going to be an installable distro or something that runs in virtualbox,VM wareplayer,virtualpc, etc?
Will there be packages to use with an existing install?(rpm,deb,etc)
Has anyone tried the andriod sdk yet?
Will there be any bampstamp tools as well? You know very well the first person that trys it will ask that question.
-dan
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Arguing with myself--sometimes me, myself, and I don't always agree.
(Former) Caterpillar product support technician
> When proferring a Linux-on-flash system, along with the dev software, the hardware issues suddenly drop into your lap, not someone else's.
@Phil:
this is much less of a problem today. As Ale mentions, it has gotten much better in the last couple of years. The distro's are basically wrappers around one of the kernel releases, mostly lagging behind as the distro's are built by dedicated volunteers (sans Suse, RedHat, etc.). As end users themselves, this cadre of coders face the same issues as normal users, but with the heightened awareness of reading lots of forum posts and emails that say things like "why doesn't my new XYZ Wifi USB stick work?" - they jump in as soon as possible and tweek the wrappers and installers to support the latest gizmos.
And like any good coder, Linux people are lazy. [noparse]:)[/noparse])
"dang, this is the tenth time we've had to tweek an Nvidia driver ... there must be an easier way..."
So the hardware recognition and updates are getting better with each iteration --- and as Ale hints at, this IS getting better and better.
The older machines have an advantage - precisely *because* they are old - and most of the driver bugs and recognition problem kinks have been ironed out. Still, you may have to do some customization, in the school system scenario you mention - but it's not nearly as bad as the bad old days --- plus, you might be pleasantly surprised at just how much the kids like to dig into this kind of problem solving!
Yes... nothing at all is cast in virtual concrete here... it's an on-going discussion that could take weeks easily. Your point of arriving at a consensus is well taken and is really the essense of the discussion itself.
Please let us know what you'd like to have, or any ideas, etc...
Ray, yes - Puppy works pretty well. Have had good experiences with it as Wurlitzer has. Only one minor issue (for me) - the versions I've tried don't seem to boot as fast as other skinny distros ... not sure why, but that doesn't matter much probably for most folks - just boot and go grab a cup of coffee. Nice that BST worked on it right out of the box. Do you have any other tools installed on Puppy that you have found useful for your MC and electronics work?
.....
@Wurlitzer:
were any of your four machines running Puppy older boxes?
With no other small distro to compare, I cannot say I thought Puppy booted slowly. I have run it on an old 486 that had been running Win NT and another old 486 that had been running Win 98 (otherwise known as a virus). It ran nicely on the old white boxes.
Yeah, it's a bit off-topic, but it's got a little browser for surfing the web (reading prop forums) and only needs
a Propeller tool and driver. [noparse];)[/noparse] yeah.. I know.. It's not that simple. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Count me as interested. I know nothing about Unix (I will use "nix" to cover all the variants).
What interests me is that nix is C based so it can be compiled for any processor (correct?).
So, with the two C compilers for the prop and a mini nix version, we could compile a version for the Prop. There are various platforms (TriBlade, RamBlade, DracBlade, Morpheus, Hybrid, Hydra, etc) which all have at least 512KB SRAM and SD (currently to 2GB). As you all know this is a "pet" project of mine.
Now, putting nix on a prop, well what can I say
Initially, all we need to support is the SD as the disk, plus a keyboard and display (or via another prop over serial )
A name... Propnix
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Comments
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www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
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My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
Please elaborate?
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
Might I suggest Debian's NetInst image? www.debian.org/distrib/ It loads the bare minimum, then pulls only the packages you want over the internet so you have the latest versions. I build a lot of Linux systems at work and that works best every time.
Steve
I'd normally agree with you, but I suspect for someone completely new to Linux this is a very fast way to confusion and frustration. As a complete greenhorn I'd start with something pre-rolled.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
Disclaimer: I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse me if someone already posted this.
-Phil
Gear does not need java. Last time I tested it did not work with mono (2007 ?), it may now ?.
Some sort of hal (for USB sticks and so on) is a good idea. But I wouldn't mind using mount. I'm not afraid of the command line if The Midnight Commander stays by my side
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
Just a thought
Indeed - every Linux user should know the mount command and at least the basic parameters.· [noparse][[/noparse]The only problem is when the user is new to Linux, coming from windows or mac. As you know, those two OS'es premount all mountable devices. (Yes, I know you can do this with win and the mac does it too --- but that's system programmer arcana [noparse]:)[/noparse]]
So a simple set of mount sample command lines is always good to have at hand.· Once you've done it a few times, it is pretty routine. MC is great - and a nice back-to-the-future thing too ... many of us will remember the old Norton Commander.
@Phil:
Good·find --- looks like it's worth some time checking out ... I'd like to second·taking a look around there.
@w8an:
Brad's right, imo. Net installs are·cool, but aren't necessarily easy to get working. The first time I tried it, it took me > 10 hours (ugh). I could have burned a gob of live CD's in that time :-|·
Yes, Knoppix is a nice Distro. (Personally, I like Parallel Knoppix/ Pelican HPC for a distributed system; a topic off track for now.)
Most of *all* of the distro's these days are available for burning to a live CD - you basically just take the drive image (called an "ISO image") and burn that directly to the CD using say Nero on windows, or your favorite CD burning software - but it must support using an ISO image.
@Chip:
glad you are interested --- nice to have you on board our little Linux Canoe - we'll get you out of Babylon and Speaking Penguinese before too long [noparse]:)[/noparse])
@Doc Acula:
you're welcome!· And it seems like it would be a good time to take that plunge indeed. Especially since we are doing this thread. I am sure any of us here can assist you (and anyone else) who's ready to jump into the pool.
RE distros:
Basically it comes down to three main families of distros: Slackware, Debian, Redhat
Here's the Linux Family Tree
cheers all !
- Howard
Hmmm... now just where did I leave my Ancient Phoenician Windoze Manual ? ...
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There's a slightly larger version of DSL that has some additional features, available from the same website.
The methods used for running from a virtual disk in RAM are adopted from Knoppix.
Any minimal system with dev tools is a good idea.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
I have also used Puppy Linux on 4 PCs with the only issue being each one required a little tweaking for Ethernet and as they all had different cards so that would be expected.
A gentleman in South Africa had created a Puppy install with a MidiTzer Virtual Theater Pipe organ pre-configured and was very powerful. It loaded from CD and ran directly from RAM. No HD requirements.
If a wrapped package of Propeller tools, bells and whistles could be developed similar to the Puppy Linux which ran off a CD, Live CD (a real plus) or thumb drive it could be a winner.
Ray, yes -·Puppy works pretty well. Have had·good experiences with it as Wurlitzer has. Only one minor issue (for me) - the versions I've tried don't·seem to boot as·fast·as other skinny distros ... not sure why, but that·doesn't matter much probably for most folks - just boot and go grab a cup of coffee.· Nice that BST worked on it right out of the box. Do you have any other tools installed on Puppy that you have found useful for your MC and electronics work?
@Mike Green:
Mike, yes indeedy - DSL was mentioned before for several reasons. As you note, its Knoppix origins are·in turn, a flavor of Debian - which it seems we've been leaning towards· (a sense a survey looming ... [noparse]:)[/noparse]·
@Ale:
good to hear you've been using it so long. What distro's do you prefer?· (I hab' Knoppix auf deutshe benutz [noparse]:)[/noparse]
@Wurlitzer:
were any of your four machines running Puppy older boxes?
@ALL:
That's·an·important aspect we've not·discussed yet.· The Kernel itself can run on most older machines·using·very little memory and disk space.··For example, someone·gave·me a "junker" a few months back -·think it was a Pentium II with a whopping 128 megs and a beefy 5 gig harddrive [noparse]:)[/noparse])· It was D.O.A. ... scoped it ... power supply's on/off line (the yellow wire) had a bad solder joint. ... quick dab of the iron ... toss in the Parted Magic CD http://partedmagic.com/·to check out the drive ... then swapped that CD for a DSL install ... and a dead box bound for the garbage is saved to serve another day.
Such machines, though slow by todays standards, sure could be used for Prop Dev.· Think twice before you junk it!
And, any more suggestions on distros ?· Red Hat users please speak up ... have you tried making a skinny Hat?
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One huge disadvantage I can see for anyone purveying such a system is this: An operating system like Windows virtualizes the hardware, so that all systems work alike for app software. The OS vendors have done all the hard work of dealing with hardware incompatibilities, and it's their responsibility to make sure their OS works on whatever you have. When proferring a Linux-on-flash system, along with the dev software, the hardware issues suddenly drop into your lap, not someone else's.
-Phil
Post Edited (Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)) : 12/5/2009 9:46:22 PM GMT
Distros-Who's the target audience?-is this going to be something for a noobe to start with or someone with moderate linux knowledge?
As for a poll it would be a good idea for everyone to settle on a distro first so that way everyone is on the same page right from the start.
Is this going to be an installable distro or something that runs in virtualbox,VM wareplayer,virtualpc, etc?
Will there be packages to use with an existing install?(rpm,deb,etc)
Has anyone tried the andriod sdk yet?
Will there be any bampstamp tools as well? You know very well the first person that trys it will ask that question.
-dan
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Arguing with myself--sometimes me, myself, and I don't always agree.
(Former) Caterpillar product support technician
@Phil:
this is much less of a problem today. As Ale mentions, it has gotten much better in the last couple of years. The distro's are basically wrappers around one of the kernel releases, mostly lagging behind as the distro's are built by dedicated volunteers (sans Suse, RedHat, etc.). As end users themselves, this cadre of coders face the same issues as normal users, but with the heightened awareness of reading lots of forum posts and emails that say things like "why doesn't my new XYZ Wifi USB stick work?" - they jump in as soon as possible and tweek the wrappers and installers to support the latest gizmos.
And like any good coder, Linux people are lazy. [noparse]:)[/noparse])
"dang, this is the tenth time we've had to tweek an Nvidia driver ... there must be an easier way..."
So the hardware recognition and updates are getting better with each iteration --- and as Ale hints at, this IS getting better and better.
The older machines have an advantage - precisely *because* they are old - and most of the driver bugs and recognition problem kinks have been ironed out. Still, you may have to do some customization, in the school system scenario you mention - but it's not nearly as bad as the bad old days --- plus, you might be pleasantly surprised at just how much the kids like to dig into this kind of problem solving!
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thanks for joining in ...
Yes... nothing at all is cast in virtual concrete here... it's an on-going discussion that could take weeks easily. Your point of arriving at a consensus is well taken and is really the essense of the discussion itself.
Please let us know what you'd like to have, or any ideas, etc...
cheers
- Howard
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With no other small distro to compare, I cannot say I thought Puppy booted slowly. I have run it on an old 486 that had been running Win NT and another old 486 that had been running Win 98 (otherwise known as a virus). It ran nicely on the old white boxes.
Yeah, it's a bit off-topic, but it's got a little browser for surfing the web (reading prop forums) and only needs
a Propeller tool and driver. [noparse];)[/noparse] yeah.. I know.. It's not that simple. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
What interests me is that nix is C based so it can be compiled for any processor (correct?).
So, with the two C compilers for the prop and a mini nix version, we could compile a version for the Prop. There are various platforms (TriBlade, RamBlade, DracBlade, Morpheus, Hybrid, Hydra, etc) which all have at least 512KB SRAM and SD (currently to 2GB). As you all know this is a "pet" project of mine.
Now, putting nix on a prop, well what can I say
Initially, all we need to support is the SD as the disk, plus a keyboard and display (or via another prop over serial
A name... Propnix
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm