Chip said...
I trust the PC less every day and I want off it. There are applications I want to write that I won't do on the PC because I don't want to suffer the inevitable disappointment of seeing my efforts subverted by the ever-convolving dysfunction that is Windows.
Why not write the IDE in a cross platform language such as Java (there are probably others, but Java is the only one I know). If you write it in Java then you can take the same code without modification and run it on a different system. Any OS updates are absorbed into the virtual machine, and you don't have to change anything.
The ROM compression idea scares me a little. Right now, it's possible to read function tables and fonts directly from ROM, in real time, as the data are needed. With compression, this info would have to be extracted into RAM first before it could be used. Granted, there's a lot more RAM this time around, but it's not limitless.
Revisiting the on-chip dev question, I'm still not convinced. You'd have two dev tools, and in order to avoid stasis there are two options:
1. The tools would have to be kept in sync via software mods and expensive die revs, or
2. The PC version would advance on it's own, quickly obsoleting the ROM version.
Neither is very attractive. The third alternative, not advancing the dev tools at all (i.e. letting the static ROM version hold back the PC version) is even less so. I would much rather see Parallax's development resources (which are more precious than ROM space) being poured into a single software dev tool that could advance over time. Cross-platform compatibility would be a bonus, but I know you're pretty much wedded to Delphi, so that would be a major (albeit ultimately worthwhile) departure. My preference would be to reserve ROM for things like function tables, fonts (a bicolor outline font would be nice for overlays, BTW), and graphical widgets that can't go obsolete; and keep them uncompressed so they can be used in situ.
Nonetheless, I'm willing to keep an open mind and see what develops. You always come up with great stuff in the end, and it's important to keep your vision for the product intact. Otherwise, it ends up being "design by committee".
Frankly, I agree with Phil; much as I like the older microcomputers, putting the dev environment on-chip will probably
not be an overall win, and is probably a waste of Parallax's valuable resources.
If you have some sort of boot-from-SD, I think it is much simpler just to put the development environment *there*.
Or put a debug/monitor interface in ROM and let it be controlled by another Prop as was mentioned earlier. But the
editor, compiler, debugger, visualizer? All those bits belong on SD, where they can be updated and enhanced. No
mask ROMs needed. Only the bootstrapping and monitor stuff belongs on ROM.
Someone mentioned $10; I had thought the Prop II would be significantly more expensive, but at $10, we are looking
at a world-beater. I think getting it out quickly trumps *any* thoughts of a development environment in ROM.
BTW, that said, I think it's Chip's party, and I'm sure I'll be delighted with whatever he comes out with. He's got more of
an "artistic" slant on these things than a "beat the world" thing or a "get rich" thing, and we all know these artistic types.
I would not want to see the current design (and implied schedule) sidetracked by any means since that would obviously disenfranchise many users and derail current momentum. Fear of the unknown and the myriad of "retro-happy" customers seem to be driving the self-contained dev environment idea and as such can be a win-win situation.
Still, while it may be attractive to eliminate uncertainty (whims of the oligopolies) and keep retros in play, it would be far more valuable to me at least to see on chip resources used for an external address/data bus (bigger package obviously) where that dev environment or any application could be stored and executed at native cog access speed. As a matter of fact an entirely separate LMM-like execution engine that can manage the 8 COGs and have access to 2GB RAM would be most welcome (however unlikely).
In the end I think we've been held in fantasy/anticipation mode for so long, that almost any product will *temporarily* satisfy us.
I have to agree with the folks who are opposed to putting a development system in rom. It is an expenditure of resources that could be put to better use elsewhere. A simple command line monitor/debugger like the old CPM debug might be ok, but a development system requires a display, keyboard and possibly a mouse and printer. Put it on an SD card if you must have it, but I find a laptop or PC a much better development environment.
Come to think of it an enhanced monitor/debugger for spin and pasm in rom combined with a PC would be awsome.
The copyclowns are responsible for screwing up VISTA/Mohave/Win7 and probably also BSoDing the FAA last week,
and Microsoft seems to let them have their way. We recently got spammed for a useless Windows Robot Language!
Since I still have machines from the early 1980s in my tool chain, including APPLE II,
and also DOS from throughout the whole 1990s, I strongly suspect anyone who pushes
Windows as a development platform appears to me to be interested in an early EOL for the Propeller.
I am even concerned about the copyclown control of video, since the Propeller uses "Analog Holes".
I AM VERY WELL BACKED UP BY 1980s STABLE LEGACY 80C52AH-BASIC if that's the way the Prop goes (away).
Now I think there is a backlash class action against copyclowns brewing, since they are attacking advanced
technology and free speech (Happy Birthday (C) HARRY FOX)
and LEGAL HOME TAPING (AHRA) which PERMITS constructing and using noncommercial recorders/recordings
whether analog or digital, for which infringement charges against individuals is PROHIBITED.
(UNLESS you agree to EULA, in which case you lose all your rights, including the $25 infringement fine limit,
and all ownership and control over what you bought; Microsoft can BSoD anyone at will without compensation.)
Your big posting earlier in this thread really formalizes well what is wrong with the direction that things have taken. Every new step in mainstream technology for at least a decade now has been accompanied by tighter lawyer-spun wrappings which work to ensure that we will get less, in terms of long-term value and usability, and more in terms of distrust and treachery. We need good technology as our companion and helpmate. Instead, we're presented with an increasingly treacherous whore with whom we are supposed to partner. I just refuse to play their game. They can stuff their Blu-Ray players and secure HDMI and all the garbage that Hollywood wants to spread through it. I don't want any of it. If some licensing is required to connect to something, then I don't need to connect. Probably none of us do.
Don't worry! The only thing that would get compressed would be text file data. Of course, things like fonts and tables would remain directly accessible.
About a built-in IDE: Think of it as a lifeboat. It's there if you need it. If mushroom clouds come, you could still bring it up, while your PC may remain dead. Just a fantasy, perhaps, but I like the idea that in 100 years, the device would still be operable, even if all the charges in every EEPROM bit cell were depleted.
HDMI only requires a license if you want to be able to read secure media.
[noparse][[/noparse]quote=jazzed]Still, while it may be attractive to eliminate uncertainty (whims of the oligopolies) and keep retros in play, it would be far more valuable to me at least to see on chip resources used for an external address/data bus (bigger package obviously) where that dev environment or any application could be stored and executed at native cog access speed. As a matter of fact an entirely separate LMM-like execution engine that can manage the 8 COGs and have access to 2GB RAM would be most welcome (however unlikely).
assuming the prop2 comes in BGA backage similarly sized to the prop 1QFN I will be making a propmod2 with 8MW RAM so LMM will be lots of fun.
On my opinion use ROM area to have Floating aritmetics Programs for both COG only execution and as LMM type program that we can simple start and use.
And other that Programs ... Thpe standard VGA, TV, and if Chip add posiblitys tu drive most LCD's directly ... Taht drivers.
Regards
Christoffer J
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty. For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer. Don't guess - ask instead. If you don't ask you won't know. If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Nick Mueller said...
Oh, one more thing why I consider a development-system -on the same chip I do development on- for useless:
I typically do have a serial connection to a terminal program that shows where my WIP is (or should be). That wouldn't work when doing all on one chip.
And what if you develop a programm with video output and want to debug it? Connect two screens? Run out of COGs? Run out of RAM? Boot from development-system back and forth to work and have to select the source-file and what line to display over and over again? Can't look at source code and what your program does at the same time?
That setup is really {censored}
Nick
Picture one Propeller on a special host board with monitor and keyboard connections, and maybe just one or two signal wires going down to the target Propeller board. Every chip would have this built-in capability, but needn't use it. You could develop on the same chip, or from another, for one chip, or for an array.
I am not sure if I am being lumped in with the "copyclowns" or not, but in my defense I said "laptop or PC" not "Windows". I am none too happy about moving from one buggy version of windows to the next bug filled version. The major difference I see is slightly improved support for a few things, and the price is having find and work around a whole new set of bugs on top of having to learn a new way of doing what I was already doing.
I would like to see the problems fixed with the current version and have it rock solid stable before moving on to the next version. I would also like to see the GUI separate from the underlying OS like X10/GUI is with Linux so I can choose a windows manager that is not such a resource hog. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen at Microsoft. No profit in it.
And before someone touts the virtues of Linux to me ( I already have a dual boot laptop ), it is no bed of roses either. There is still a lot of hardware it does not support ( at least without a major effort ), and it is not simple to install on a laptop or even some PC's. On top of that the majority of my customers run Windows so I really have no choice if I want to keep them.
I think he's referring to the combination of the broken legal system and the major players who use it to try to restrict what we can do with our hardware and software.
<edit>
On the topic of Windows. I'm lucky enough to be able to point clients who insist on Windows toward one of my competitors. Don't need the headache.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty. For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer. Don't guess - ask instead. If you don't ask you won't know. If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Being one of those nostalgic types from the 80's of course I want an on-board ide, but
to make it useful it's going to need to have the things I have now.
Mouse support
Copy/Paste
Ability to open multiple files
80x25 and 160x40 text equiv text resolutions. (depending on screen attached)
This type of "stable" on-board IDE would be appreciated by all.
BTW, Chip I keep noticing that you keep using Apple][noparse][[/noparse] in your "stability" examples, not Commodore?
Question: since PS2 will become an increasingly painful item to locate in 3-5 years, is there a chance of
USB support in the new Propeller?
There is no EEPROM in Prop II. As BradC noted, the process used to manufacture the chips doesn't allow for any kind of flash memory which includes the usual EEPROM.
There's 384K of RAM and 256K of masked ROM.· I suspect that the RAM used by the cogs is in addition to this (only 8 x 2K bytes anyway). ·
Chip said...
We need good technology as our companion and helpmate. Instead, we're presented with an increasingly treacherous (expletive) with whom we are supposed to partner.
So eloquently put, and very true.
I can only attribute it to a "dumbing down" of technology. Everything has to be point and click, but with the ever increasing demand for more and more features, Windows has become a mess.
I like the idea of the on-chip development, but I had the same misgivings as others. Would that lead to the IDE features to be frozen at the time of release. And the point that OBC just brought up about PS2 keyboards and mice going away is a valid one.
But the idea of being able to use a small PCB to do development on, I'm all for it. Something with the features of the Demo Board, except with a SD card slot. All that could be had for the same price or less than what a programmer for some other microcontrollers currently cost.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
But the idea of being able to use a small PCB to do development on, I'm all for it. Something with the features of the Demo Board, except with a SD card slot. All that could be had for the same price or less than what a programmer for some other microcontrollers currently cost.
I second this!
Next question is what will SD media be in 3-5 years?
Seems that Chip is wandering the forums more these days, and Beau not so much.
This is a good sign! Is it too soon to start my Prop III wish list? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The Prop II will likely use an M25Pxx-type device, which is an 8-pin, fast-SPI flash memory that is manufactured by several different companies and comes in densities ranging from 64K bytes to 16M bytes. Also, there will be support for some removable, low-pin-count, popular memory card format.
Comments
Why not write the IDE in a cross platform language such as Java (there are probably others, but Java is the only one I know). If you write it in Java then you can take the same code without modification and run it on a different system. Any OS updates are absorbed into the virtual machine, and you don't have to change anything.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
The ROM compression idea scares me a little. Right now, it's possible to read function tables and fonts directly from ROM, in real time, as the data are needed. With compression, this info would have to be extracted into RAM first before it could be used. Granted, there's a lot more RAM this time around, but it's not limitless.
Revisiting the on-chip dev question, I'm still not convinced. You'd have two dev tools, and in order to avoid stasis there are two options:
1. The tools would have to be kept in sync via software mods and expensive die revs, or
2. The PC version would advance on it's own, quickly obsoleting the ROM version.
Neither is very attractive. The third alternative, not advancing the dev tools at all (i.e. letting the static ROM version hold back the PC version) is even less so. I would much rather see Parallax's development resources (which are more precious than ROM space) being poured into a single software dev tool that could advance over time. Cross-platform compatibility would be a bonus, but I know you're pretty much wedded to Delphi, so that would be a major (albeit ultimately worthwhile) departure. My preference would be to reserve ROM for things like function tables, fonts (a bicolor outline font would be nice for overlays, BTW), and graphical widgets that can't go obsolete; and keep them uncompressed so they can be used in situ.
Nonetheless, I'm willing to keep an open mind and see what develops. You always come up with great stuff in the end, and it's important to keep your vision for the product intact. Otherwise, it ends up being "design by committee".
-Phil
I think you got Chip wrong.
He only wanted to compress applications. At least what I understood (or was that wishful thinking?)
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.:
YADRO
not be an overall win, and is probably a waste of Parallax's valuable resources.
If you have some sort of boot-from-SD, I think it is much simpler just to put the development environment *there*.
Or put a debug/monitor interface in ROM and let it be controlled by another Prop as was mentioned earlier. But the
editor, compiler, debugger, visualizer? All those bits belong on SD, where they can be updated and enhanced. No
mask ROMs needed. Only the bootstrapping and monitor stuff belongs on ROM.
Someone mentioned $10; I had thought the Prop II would be significantly more expensive, but at $10, we are looking
at a world-beater. I think getting it out quickly trumps *any* thoughts of a development environment in ROM.
an "artistic" slant on these things than a "beat the world" thing or a "get rich" thing, and we all know these artistic types.
Still, while it may be attractive to eliminate uncertainty (whims of the oligopolies) and keep retros in play, it would be far more valuable to me at least to see on chip resources used for an external address/data bus (bigger package obviously) where that dev environment or any application could be stored and executed at native cog access speed. As a matter of fact an entirely separate LMM-like execution engine that can manage the 8 COGs and have access to 2GB RAM would be most welcome (however unlikely).
In the end I think we've been held in fantasy/anticipation mode for so long, that almost any product will *temporarily* satisfy us.
Come to think of it an enhanced monitor/debugger for spin and pasm in rom combined with a PC would be awsome.
and Microsoft seems to let them have their way. We recently got spammed for a useless Windows Robot Language!
Since I still have machines from the early 1980s in my tool chain, including APPLE II,
and also DOS from throughout the whole 1990s, I strongly suspect anyone who pushes
Windows as a development platform appears to me to be interested in an early EOL for the Propeller.
I am even concerned about the copyclown control of video, since the Propeller uses "Analog Holes".
I AM VERY WELL BACKED UP BY 1980s STABLE LEGACY 80C52AH-BASIC if that's the way the Prop goes (away).
Now I think there is a backlash class action against copyclowns brewing, since they are attacking advanced
technology and free speech (Happy Birthday (C) HARRY FOX)
and LEGAL HOME TAPING (AHRA) which PERMITS constructing and using noncommercial recorders/recordings
whether analog or digital, for which infringement charges against individuals is PROHIBITED.
(UNLESS you agree to EULA, in which case you lose all your rights, including the $25 infringement fine limit,
and all ownership and control over what you bought; Microsoft can BSoD anyone at will without compensation.)
Your big posting earlier in this thread really formalizes well what is wrong with the direction that things have taken. Every new step in mainstream technology for at least a decade now has been accompanied by tighter lawyer-spun wrappings which work to ensure that we will get less, in terms of long-term value and usability, and more in terms of distrust and treachery. We need good technology as our companion and helpmate. Instead, we're presented with an increasingly treacherous whore with whom we are supposed to partner. I just refuse to play their game. They can stuff their Blu-Ray players and secure HDMI and all the garbage that Hollywood wants to spread through it. I don't want any of it. If some licensing is required to connect to something, then I don't need to connect. Probably none of us do.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Don't worry! The only thing that would get compressed would be text file data. Of course, things like fonts and tables would remain directly accessible.
About a built-in IDE: Think of it as a lifeboat. It's there if you need it. If mushroom clouds come, you could still bring it up, while your PC may remain dead. Just a fantasy, perhaps, but I like the idea that in 100 years, the device would still be operable, even if all the charges in every EEPROM bit cell were depleted.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
[noparse][[/noparse]quote=jazzed]Still, while it may be attractive to eliminate uncertainty (whims of the oligopolies) and keep retros in play, it would be far more valuable to me at least to see on chip resources used for an external address/data bus (bigger package obviously) where that dev environment or any application could be stored and executed at native cog access speed. As a matter of fact an entirely separate LMM-like execution engine that can manage the 8 COGs and have access to 2GB RAM would be most welcome (however unlikely).
assuming the prop2 comes in BGA backage similarly sized to the prop 1QFN I will be making a propmod2 with 8MW RAM so LMM will be lots of fun.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
On my opinion use ROM area to have Floating aritmetics Programs for both COG only execution and as LMM type program that we can simple start and use.
And other that Programs ... Thpe standard VGA, TV, and if Chip add posiblitys tu drive most LCD's directly ... Taht drivers.
Regards
Christoffer J
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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Sapieha
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
I would like to see the problems fixed with the current version and have it rock solid stable before moving on to the next version. I would also like to see the GUI separate from the underlying OS like X10/GUI is with Linux so I can choose a windows manager that is not such a resource hog. Unfortunately that is not likely to happen at Microsoft. No profit in it.
And before someone touts the virtues of Linux to me ( I already have a dual boot laptop ), it is no bed of roses either. There is still a lot of hardware it does not support ( at least without a major effort ), and it is not simple to install on a laptop or even some PC's. On top of that the majority of my customers run Windows so I really have no choice if I want to keep them.
I did some Googling, but can't figure it out.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
<edit>
On the topic of Windows. I'm lucky enough to be able to point clients who insist on Windows toward one of my competitors. Don't need the headache.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
You said "What's a copyclown?"
That is My question to? ...
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Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
Don't guess - ask instead.
If you don't ask you won't know.
If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.
Sapieha
Could anyone clarify what EEPROM is used in Propeller II?
Microchip has a memory of only 128KB (Propeller II is 384KB).
Thanks.
I'm pretty sure the process used does not support EEPROM or Flash.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
to make it useful it's going to need to have the things I have now.
Mouse support
Copy/Paste
Ability to open multiple files
80x25 and 160x40 text equiv text resolutions. (depending on screen attached)
This type of "stable" on-board IDE would be appreciated by all.
BTW, Chip I keep noticing that you keep using Apple][noparse][[/noparse] in your "stability" examples, not Commodore?
Question: since PS2 will become an increasingly painful item to locate in 3-5 years, is there a chance of
USB support in the new Propeller?
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
Which of course means a full TCP/IP stack, WebKit-based browser or equivalent, and much more.
Only calculators, these days, are off the net. Heck, even my *phone* connects to the internet.
There's 384K of RAM and 256K of masked ROM.· I suspect that the RAM used by the cogs is in addition to this (only 8 x 2K bytes anyway).
·
I wanted to say external memory, not on the chip. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
So eloquently put, and very true.
I can only attribute it to a "dumbing down" of technology. Everything has to be point and click, but with the ever increasing demand for more and more features, Windows has become a mess.
I like the idea of the on-chip development, but I had the same misgivings as others. Would that lead to the IDE features to be frozen at the time of release. And the point that OBC just brought up about PS2 keyboards and mice going away is a valid one.
But the idea of being able to use a small PCB to do development on, I'm all for it. Something with the features of the Demo Board, except with a SD card slot. All that could be had for the same price or less than what a programmer for some other microcontrollers currently cost.
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Brian
uController.com - home of SpinStudio - the modular Development system for the Propeller
PropNIC - Add ethernet ability to your Propeller! PropJoy - Plug in a joystick and play some games!
SD card Adapter - mass storage for the masses Audio/Video adapter add composite video and sound to your Proto Board
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
I second this!
Next question is what will SD media be in 3-5 years?
Seems that Chip is wandering the forums more these days, and Beau not so much.
This is a good sign! Is it too soon to start my Prop III wish list? [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
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Chip Gracey
Parallax, Inc.