Propeller vs. Microsoft Visual Programming Language
Cedarshack
Posts: 2
I am evaluating a choice of chips for a robot project. I have been on-line to
Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio 2008 R2 Express Edition· (RDS)·website.
Does anyone have information as to a link/compatibility between the·propeller and RDS?
My understanding is that Microsoft uses Visual C# to·produce code via the RDS.
Thank you for any feedback!
Cedarshack
Microsoft Robotics Developer Studio 2008 R2 Express Edition· (RDS)·website.
Does anyone have information as to a link/compatibility between the·propeller and RDS?
My understanding is that Microsoft uses Visual C# to·produce code via the RDS.
Thank you for any feedback!
Cedarshack
Comments
The Propeller is a very suitable platform for robotic applications - but it is a microcontroller. Propeller applications don't typically run under any operating system, let alone a Windows one. The documentation for Microsoft Robotics Developor Studio says it targets Windows Desktop and Server environments, or Embedded XP or Windows CE targets. In other words, you need both a Windows operating system plus the humungous amounts of resources that those operating systems typically require.
Ross.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
It seems to be all about hiring mouseclickers and solitaire players
and selling antiviruses, redundant versions of itself and Office.
The Serial and Parallel ports we formerly used for Automation have been lost to Planned Obsolescence.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
I thank all of you who have responded!
"Cedarshack" is not related to microsoft and is not spam. That is the tag I have on my
shop. The front of my shop is constructed out of red cedar, thus the name Cedarshack. I use the name
as my "handle".
Thanks again for the responses.
Cedarshack
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
Your avatar says it all
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JMH
Post Edited (James Michael Huselton) : 11/16/2009 11:34:43 PM GMT
OOOH!· OOOH!· I've done it!
Well there were a couple of snags.
I built a system that controlled two filling stations over truck scales, the conveyor system that loaded the silos above them, and a system of scoreboard signs and traffic signals to direct the trucks in and out.· It had to develop the paperwork and send it across a network, so I used two WinXP boxes cross-connected so that one was a hot spare and the other ran the whole shebang.· Put it in in 2002 and it's still there.· Two of the scoreboards (they welcome the drivers by name when they swipe their RFID cards, which happen to be compatible with the system Parallax now sells) are 8 feet long and cost $4,000 each.· If you know where to look you can see them from I-10 while driving through Lake Charles, LA.
Of course, there were a few glitches.· I had fine-tuned those machines, removing anything that could cause a problem.· The conveyors were controlled by a serial to I2C converter feeding 8 banks of 8 parallel I/O lines; I warned them that if the system ever froze up to do a virus scan and prevented that module from running they ran the risk of burying a truck.· (This does happen once in awhile anyway, they know what to do about it; the hydraulic gates sometimes stick.· But it's a nuisance I'd rather not cause.)
Anyhoo the IT guys insisted they wanted to put it on the company domain, and I was very leery of this citing the two page single spaced instructions I'd given them about how the machines HAD to be set up for us to warranty them.· The IT guys coolly replied that since we'd given them the source code they were confident they could handle anything that came along.· So they put the machines on the domain, and the **** hit the fan.
One of our directives was "no screen saver."· We'd supplied LCD panels so they wouldn't burn.· These systems were the display for the conveyor control system now, and they were in a locked glass-front cabinet, so it was not acceptable for them to go into screen saver mode.· Well 10 minutes after going on the domain the screen savers came on.· And the controls to disable them were locked out.· I complained, the IT guys said "we'll fix it," and OK the screen savers stayed off for a day or two.
But a week later they were back on.· I checked the frozen settings and found that they hadn't turned the screen savers OFF, they'd set the timeout to 9999 minutes.· I called and ranted and made various insinuations about peoples' parentage and nothing got changed and to this day, six years later, one of the maintenance guys has to go out to the shack once a week on a work order to open the cabinet and move the mouse so the screen saver won't come up.
Then there was the time both the main machine and the hot spare got hit with a worm at the same time -- one they wouldn't have gotten if, as I'd suggested, remote administration had simply been turned OFF.
Overall, though, it's worked very well, but that's probably partly because it isn't a high speed process with a lot of complicated unpredictable stuff happening.·
Several of my systems have been in production working at a Fortune 5 company for over 6 years. One plant has 18 different unique projects running on a core industrial automation system I was a key player in developing. This was not done w/o a ton of work getting time critical code to work. Our system was designed to work with several HPIB, TCP/IP, and serial based devices. This was all done using VB 6.0 using custom ActiveX EXE drivers to get as close to a multithreaded system as could be got using VB 6.
One of the projects needed to run a 400 hour life cycle test w/o crashing while recording hundereds of data points each second. If Windows was not stable, this would never have happend. Windows 98 would not have lasted 48 hours, but Windows XP worked fine.
Dot Net is much better and my current main client has several hundered installs around the world running my systems all based on Windows XP.
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Jim Fouch
FOUCH SOFTWARE
I may indeed be paranoid - but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me
Ross.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
I know the feeling. That's why I wear my aluminum foil hat when I'm programming...
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JMH
If anything it seems to be aimed at those VB types that are coding for a Intel based platform with gigabytes of memory and disk space.
Worse, start using their software and you'll get locked into their nasty perpetual software and hardware upgrade cycle as well. You know, planned obsolescence.
Count me out.
I probably wouldn't put it quite the way Waltc does - but you may find there's more than a few on these forums who agree with the general sentiments.
I use Windows on the desktop all the time, and (despite a few occasional gripes) I think that as a personal operating system it's basically ok. If you catch me on a good day and exclude the obvious fiascos like Vista, then I might even say its quite good.
We also use Windows on our production servers, and here I begin to wonder why anyone bothers. The money you save on the initial price of the OS is almost completely outweighed by the huge number of hours it takes to get it running in the first place, and then to keep it running. But what the heck - at least it contributes to the economy by keeping truckloads of "certified Microsoft professionals" employed.
But Windows in embedded systems? Especially "headless" embedded systems? Once you remove the need for a windowed desktop environment, what you're left with is an OS kernel that is mediocre in both functionality and perfomance while at the same time being a huge resource hog. And which takes complexity to new and unprecedented levels (you can't seriously try and pretend there is anyone out there who really understands the COM/DCOM security model on Windows CE?).
Microsoft in robotics applications? Nooooo!
Ross.
P.S. Hmm. It looks like you deleted your post. Oh well.
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
I've automated entire factories with Windows and automatic, fail-safe code. Many are humming along many years later, because the factory owners saw no need to "improve" things.
And half of these factories used dozens of robots, all programmed in the same fail-safe modes that I described. The robots were most definitely embedded designs that I implemented.
It isn't Windows; it isn't the technology; it is the architect/programmer. Although I prefer message-based Linux designs now days, the same design principles apply equally to Windows or Linux.
And the foremost design principle is the dictate that the system must fail gracefully and recover itself without human intervention. That, gentlemen. was a hell of a constraint.
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JMH
Sometimes you can only recover within the bounds of the failure mode. When the failure mode is the OS doing something retarded underneath you, there is little chance of a sane recovery. I've never had to fit a hardware watchdog to a Linux system. I have had Linux do the odd retarded thing, but it's always neatly rebooted itself and I can count those instances on one hand.
Unfortunately I've had far more instances of Windows pulling the rug out from under me than I have Linux. Everyone has a different experience though. Personally I've just had far less hassle since I moved away from Windows.
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If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
But Microsoft IS out to get you. Perhaps not you exactly but at least some of your money, nothing personal you understand. They would like nothing more than to see all alternative operating systems and tools disappear and have you shell out for their stuff. On a kind of permanent rental basis paying over and over again, forever.
Now my main gripe with the Windows situation is not the cost, and is not the quality or otherwise of the products.
No, what I find completely insane about the current state of affairs is that such a huge percentage of the worlds computing infrastructure from personal users to companies and corporations to governements and their military forces is totally dependent on the products a single company. Which, for most users, is in a foreign country.
Windows and the rest could be totally perfect, bug free and secure software. I would not care. For the world to have a total dependence on a single entity that is completely out of it's control is just unacceptable.
I just came across this quote:
"I once preached peaceful coexistence with Windows. You may laugh at my expense - I deserve it." Jean-Louis Gasse
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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JMH
My childhood was great. Not a computer or operating system to be seen. I could only dream of building a calculating device out of old rotary telephone diallers, relays and light bulbs. Seriously, I saw that as a project in some kind of "how computers work" book for kids. Wish I could find it again[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I once attended a corporate meeting for a $50B a year printing company where the IT director stated that no damned customer was going to send their page files over "HER" network. At least the exec's were smart enough to eventually fire her.
I am not a fan of MS but just realize it is a fact of life and can be made to do what I want but again the people issues tend to be more difficult than the OS issues.
I do see a very good fit however between the propeller and a VB or VC++ interface where the prop handles all the critical work and the MS stuff makes it look pretty.
Also, I get the feeling that Microsoft tends to see projects from a desktop, human-controlled point of view rather than from a low-level machine-controlled point of view.
So if your robot project is to be simple, "standard" and run from the desktop then this may be a good, even great, way to get started, but if you're planning to break new ground then if it were me, I'd want to take a hard look at what RDS won't allow you do, and maybe look at other options.
I have an article coming out very soon in Nuts & Volts magazine that shows how to do precisely this
using RobotBASIC and the Propeller chip to Create a Space Station Attitude Control using PID control
and all is done under Windows using the RobotBASIC programming language on the PC and SPIN on
the Propeller.
The project also illustrates a Simulation of the Real Station where you can control the simulation and
try out PID factors and then with just a click of a button you can make the control affect a REAL physical
hardware (via the Propeller). Also you can do Automatic (PID) control or Manual control. And all·with
an ergonomic GUI user interface.
See This video to see·it in action (the video shows the same project but using the BS2
not the Propeller....the article will be the Propeller version of the same project... a lot smoother
and more responsive with smaller time constants.)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=john30340#p/u/2/oxqlTaJy31M
·
Also these two videos show how to use RobotBASIC to develop ALGORITHMS for controlling a SIMULATED
robot to follow a line. Then with the addition of just ONE LINE of code you can try out the VERY SAME
algorithms on a REAL robot (BoeBot wirelessly) and see how the real robot behaves EXACTLY the same as in
the simulation.
To see my above claims you need to watch BOTH videos (they are not long) and you WILL SEE the level
of control you can achieve.....all you need is the RIGHT TOOL......
(by the way ....I have had NUMEROUS emails telling me that RB is easier and more accessible to use and
ACHIEVE things with than MSRS.....the emailers have all tried and got frustrated with MSRS and thanked me
for RB since it enabled them to do what they tried to do with MSRS and failed.)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=john30340#p/u/4/i5JT4WdMofQ
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=john30340#p/u/27/vftgmZQCheA
Also if you are interested...see this video where it combines VISION and ROBOTICS to control a HUMANOID
robot all done under Windows using RobotBASIC and Parallax's MultiServomotor Controller (USB). It was also the
subject of an article that came out in Servo Magazine in April 2009.·
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=john30340#p/u/26/LwvspYFXJMM
Here is the link to the article..
http://www.servomagazine.com/media-files/971/A_Robotic_Puppet-SV200811.pdf ·
I hope the above·proves that with the RIGHT TOOLS you can do ANYTHING you want in Windows or·Linux, on a
PC or a Microcontroller or BOTH......
It all depends on you choosing the RIGHT HORSE FOR THE RIGHT COURSE...............
·
Samuel
·
The thing I have learned now that I am old and it is too late to benefit from the lessons of life, is that
EVERYTHING is CYCLICAL..........
·
We started with one or two companies controlling the ENTIRE computer industry.....we got a few RENEGADES that
CHALLENGED the incumbent power.....they succeeded and created a NICHE industry......they became huge, money
hungry, power hungry and CONTROLLING.....They are now the incumbent power and the companies for the new generations
of renegades to fight.........and the cycle REPEATS..........
·
Fact of life....there is nothing new under the sun....just new methods of doing the same thing........
·
Samuel
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JMH
I have to go and take my nitroglycerine pill now.....hope to see you tomorrow...
Samuel
·
- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Catalina - a FREE C compiler for the Propeller - see Catalina
If I had WindAIDS I'd be dying of a heart attack too.
In the beginning, Gates made BASIC, and behold, it was GOOD.
And Gates said LET X=1, and behold, X was one.
And Gates saw us GOTO the garden of e-men full of joy.
Then the Bill saw a shiny new Apple, and was tempted, and took of it,
and made all computers consume it. If they did not, he lied, saying;
For all computers need my OS most holey, and shalt have it. And so by one man,
all have been poisoned by his forbidden fruit, which turneth blue,
and perform illegal operations and must be shut down whilst
General Failure reading thy Hard Drive. Woe to he who buys
the Microsoft Car, the profit sayeth, for he will SYNC into the bottomless pit,
and see the profit no more! EULA be sorry, O man, forevermore.
(abridged) : The Unholy Gates of Hell ,
the Great Walls of Fire, The Horse of Troy, The Worms that never Die,
The curse of the contageous and Blue Screaming Death! And so many more woes yet,
For all whom has Accepted the WORD of the serpent EULA, they paid to toil in vain forevermore,
TRUTH:ONLY IN HELL ARE MACHINES AFFLICTED WITH UNNATURAL DISEASES!
The machine that has no Mouse is Better, Faster, Nicer, and serves us faithfully with the profits.