Home Electric panel Ground and neutral
metron9
Posts: 1,100
I was in my socks using a drill press connected to a new outlet I had installed and felt a tiny tingel of electric.
Then I looked at this
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Improve/220outlet_breakerbox.html
My breaker box has a connector across the bottom connecting the ground bar and the neutral bar
Does it really matter with a 120V circuit what bar the ground and neutral wires go too?
I will be adding a 220V circuit to drive a TECo VDF
http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=28926&gclid=CKC99vqa-p0CFSn6agodHmJOpQ
For my new (used) Bridgeport Mill next week, searching google on 220V circuits the question was asked about a 3 prong 220V dryer outlet and using the same outlet for a 220v welder 2 wire ground, that linked talk3ed about the bonding of ground and neutral. perhaps my panel is bonded and there is no difference in what rail is used for ground or neutral.
I think I am going to get a ground fault breaker for the two 20amp outlet runs i just installed, Sometimes i do a bit of puttering around in my bare feet and i remember a short in a n old electric drill my dad had when i was a kid. By brother just about fried in front of me.
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
Then I looked at this
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Improve/220outlet_breakerbox.html
My breaker box has a connector across the bottom connecting the ground bar and the neutral bar
Does it really matter with a 120V circuit what bar the ground and neutral wires go too?
I will be adding a 220V circuit to drive a TECo VDF
http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=28926&gclid=CKC99vqa-p0CFSn6agodHmJOpQ
For my new (used) Bridgeport Mill next week, searching google on 220V circuits the question was asked about a 3 prong 220V dryer outlet and using the same outlet for a 220v welder 2 wire ground, that linked talk3ed about the bonding of ground and neutral. perhaps my panel is bonded and there is no difference in what rail is used for ground or neutral.
I think I am going to get a ground fault breaker for the two 20amp outlet runs i just installed, Sometimes i do a bit of puttering around in my bare feet and i remember a short in a n old electric drill my dad had when i was a kid. By brother just about fried in front of me.
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
Comments
For my new (used) Bridgeport Mill next week, searching goggle on 220V circuits the question was asked about a 3 prong 220V dryer outlet and using the same outlet for a 220v welder 2 wire ground, that linked talk3ed about the bonding of ground and neutral.
Your panel should be bonded and you are right at the Panel it would not matter BUT to conform the color wire to all be the same white wire to neutral bar·and the green wire to grounding bar
·perhaps my panel is bonded and there is no difference in what rail is used for ground or neutral.
This would·be a good·
I think I am going to get a ground fault breaker for the two 20amp outlet runs i just installed, Sometimes i do a bit of puttering around in my bare feet I was in my socks using a drill press connected to a new outlet I had installed and felt a tiny tingel of electric.and i remember a short in a n old electric drill my dad had when i was a kid. By brother just about fried in front of me.
The ground by it self will not keep you from being shock because unless you have a 20 amp or more load from L1 to groung that breaker will not trip
but all you need is·5 mill amp or more to kill you
I hope this helps
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··Thanks for any·
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Sam
Post Edited (sam_sam_sam) : 11/8/2009 1:47:31 AM GMT
* That tingle you felt is a WARNING SIGN that something is wrong. You should NEVER feel the tingle of electricity from a properly working, and properly wired electrical device.
STOP USING THE DRILL PRESS until you find out what was/is wrong, and get it corrected! This did not happen because you were in stocking feet. YOU HAVE A POTENTIALLY FATAL PROBLEM!
If you have anyone tell you this is "normal", run, don't walk, to the nearest exit, and find someone else to help you out.
The above advice may save your life.
Now moving forward:
I am not a licensed electrician, but I have worked and learned from them, and do most of my own electrical work at home, and done electrical work in various test labs at work. I've worked with voltages up to 440 V 3 Phase, and am still here to talk about it.
It makes me nervous to hear of people looking this stuff up on the internet, and not having a very solid foundation for what's going on.
Two thoughts for you:
* The consequences of failure and/or error can easily be fatal.
* Find yourself a real live human being that you can talk to and learn from. Possibly a relative, or a friend of a friend of a friend, and someone who can possibly stop by.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
Post Edited (John R.) : 11/8/2009 2:57:26 AM GMT
A ground fault breaker is a good idea, and will cause the breaker to open if there is a very small leakage current to ground.
The 220V circuit is a 2 phase 110V circuit where the two phases are 180 degrees apart to give 220V between the phases. That means you should measure 120VAC from neutral or ground to either of the two lines, and 0V between neutral and ground.
An electrical outlet tester is a simple and worthwhile tool to check for proper electrical wiring.
-Phil
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- Stephen
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·"If you build it, they will come."
By code you can not switch ground and neutral.
Neutral is connected at panel. Do to current the neutral wire will have a voltage different then 0. Ground is a sefty device that should never have current on it so there voltage should be 0.
As everyone has said if you are fealling something then there must be a voltage greater then 30v on your scine.
Gfi breakers are expensive and it will be tripping as long as there is a problem. If it is worth it take it apart and look for fraied wires or damaged insulators. If not worth it buy a new press.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
Anyway I will go ahead and put the gfi 20 amp breaker on this set of outlets as they also from time to time get used for an extension cord to battery chargers and circular saws in the driveway.
Oh, and I will also wear shoes!
I also plan to have a qualified person make the connections for the 3 phase. I ran the 1 inch pipe from the box so it is ready to pull. That bridgeport is 2000 pounds so a qualified rigger is also going to move it. I know a man has to know his limitations and I do push it from time to time.
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
Yes I understand I only have 1 phase 220, that is why I am going to use a VFD to drive the 3 phase motor.
http://www.wolfautomation.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=28926&gclid=CKC99vqa-p0CFSn6agodHmJOpQ
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
HELLO - Were you really reading any of the above?
SHOES ARE NOT THE PROBLEM!
FIND OUT WHAT WAS WRONG, AND GET IT FIXED!
We want to keep hearing from you on the forums
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
I decided after your post to go and buy an outlet tester so see is there was any way I may have messed up wiring the three 20 amp circuits.
Two sets of wires black,green,white share one conduit that goes on the north and west wall. 3 outlets on each wall.
The third set goes to the east wall outlets. I tested that first and it was fine
I tested the outlet in question (north wall with the two sets of wires) and it showed it was fine with one exception the third light on the tester had a tiny glow.
I tested the west wall and sure enough it showed an open ground!
Looking at the junction box (both north/west conduit and the east conduit merge) I realized I had connected the two green wires comming from the north and west wall together! No wonder it was an open ground, funny the north wall did not show open ground and showed a tiny light on the hot ground, perhaps the wires in the conduit created a voltage like a transformer or something.
Anyway it's all fixed now and the tester says everything is good to go.
Thank's again for keeping me on this till it was fixed.
Still going to wear shoes though, I even put on my big rubber sole boots and turned off the circuit breaker before reconnecting the lines correctly.
I just washed the floor, still wet. I need to get a floor cleaning gizmo to get rid of all the paint spatter and ceiling spatter stuff and get some grey epoxy on it though.
Picture of the lab with the empty corner waiting for the Bridgeport.
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
Post Edited (metron9) : 11/8/2009 11:49:38 PM GMT
I am glad to hear you found and fixed the problem.
Grounds and Neutrals can be a bit tricky at times. Always take the time to make sure this stuff is right. Remember, the consequences of failure can be lethal!
Also, remember that any metal boxes use should also be tied (wired) to the Ground (Green) wires. Don't depend on the conduit. Make sure they are "bonded to ground". This means that in an outlet box, there should be at least 3 green (or bare) wires. The ground back to the breaker panel, the ground to the outlet, and the ground to the metal box. If the circuit goes on to another box or junction, then you'll have more grounds.
Take care, we want to see you posting for years to come!
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
The boxes are metal and the conduit is 1/2" electrical pvc, boxes are grounded.
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Think Inside the box first and if that doesn't work..
Re-arrange what's inside the box then...
Think outside the BOX!
By code in canada you are allowed to drop 3% of your voltage in your lines. In a balanced 3 phase system the ground wires resistance can be ignored but in an unbalanced or 1 phase system you can't meaning you can have a voltage on your nut of up to 1.5% of supply voltage.
A glow on neut is usually caused by a lose or open neutral. If both circuits share the neutral the circuits will still function but the neutral voltage will float proportional to current draw of the 2 circuits.
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24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.