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Antney
Posts: 6
Hello All
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Before I jump into the Propeller I have a few questions. I come from a software development background using Microsoft Visual Studio and really like·its integrated IDE and debugging capabilities. Is there a IDE for the Propeller that has similar functionality? can you debug your code in real-time, look at variables, intelisence. I have looked at "The propeller tool" and at first glance it looks like only an editor. I know there is ViewPort but from the little looking around I did on it I can't tell if it gives me that VS IDE functionality.
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Thanks
Anthony
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Before I jump into the Propeller I have a few questions. I come from a software development background using Microsoft Visual Studio and really like·its integrated IDE and debugging capabilities. Is there a IDE for the Propeller that has similar functionality? can you debug your code in real-time, look at variables, intelisence. I have looked at "The propeller tool" and at first glance it looks like only an editor. I know there is ViewPort but from the little looking around I did on it I can't tell if it gives me that VS IDE functionality.
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Thanks
Anthony
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Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
For me there is no comparison between Viewport and the VS IDE. You can download a demo and judge it yourself.
The VS IDE is a hard act to follow; I don't think Viewport tries although one overzealous magazine article implies otherwise.
I built ViewPort because I like building complex projects (like a vision guided balancing robot that can dance with people) with the Propeller. I develop in many languages and greatly prefer those that have a powerful IDE, like Visual Studio. I'm a single developer, so I don't pretend that ViewPort is as full featured as Visual Studio. However, I'm very happy with the powerful features that ViewPort includes- I think it's ideally suited for building things with the Propeller. Check these forums for all the great projects my customers have built with ViewPort. My signature includes a link to a well researched article and more information about my projects. I'm sure you'll enjoy your time with the Propeller- I have!
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
changing code and test it in RAM is ONE keypress (F11) and 3 seconds away.
best regards
Stefan
If you want a great IDE (as VS is supposed to be) you will go for a great disappointment with the propeller and the available tools. They do their job, but are nothing near what 100s men for years did with VS or Eclipse. Nothing keeps you from writing the tools you want, though.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
I never took a look at this dll. But if I remember right it is a command-line tool.
Does eclipse allow debugging with gcc or something similar ?
best regards
Stefan
Yes, but you need a gdb compatible debug server running on the "remote" target. Possible, but a lot of work.
Anthony originally asked: "can you debug your code in real-time, look at variables, intelisence."
ViewPort does let you monitor/change variables- even with all sorts of graphs, which I miss in Visual Studio. ViewPort also let's you debug in real-time, letting you set a breakpoint, step, and view all sorts of information. ViewPort does not currently have intellisense and you can't change the program while you're debugging.
What feature of Visual Studio would you most like to see in ViewPort? The last time I asked this, I added:
- breakpoint
- step in/out/over
- view memory (shows all 32kb of global memory every time you "step")
- call stack (shows which functions have been called before the current pause point)
- syntax highlighting with visual debugging- same interface as visual studio, with red balls for breakpoints, yellow highlight for where the code is paused, and same syntax highlighting as propeller tool
- performance monitor (shows relatively how much time is spent in different functions)
- monitor and change variable values
Intellisense/code completion is still missing- anybody know of a good cross-platform, flexible code editor object I could use?
If you want a more graphical tool to build user interfaces and reuse existing object easily, check out 12blocks. With 12blocks you can change all numeric parameters at run-time- but it doesn't have a debugger-yet..
Hanno
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Co-author of the official Propeller Guide- available at Amazon
Developer of ViewPort, the premier visual debugger for the Propeller (read the review here, thread here),
12Blocks, the block-based programming environment (thread here)
and PropScope, the multi-function USB oscilloscope/function generator/logic analyzer
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What you have just·described·goes way above the head of people who have never been taught programming properly, let alone to do their own debugging.
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I call it the LOST ART OF PROGRAMMING SYNDROME. It is a phenomenon promulgated by the proliferation of DEBUGGERS and other paraphernalia.
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New generations of programmer just have no idea what you are talking about because they have never been told that they can insert a printf() and scanf() (Print and Input) statements here and there to pause the program and display some variables....mainly because there is no way they can use printf() statements any more, with all the GUI languages that are now around. Just to enter a number in a program these days is a contortionist act let alone to get a quick display of a result.
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You have to add Edit boxes and Push buttons just to have any kind of user I/O. So of course it has become necessary to use Debuggers. But just like you said elsewhere, people who learn how to walk with crutches will never learn how to walk without them.
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Knowing how to narrow down a possible bug to a certain section and to progressively zoom in on the error and analyzing logic and reading manuals and even writing reasonable code in the first place is somewhat a LOST ART these days. Why do all this when the IDE does it for you.· So called Programmers these days are LEGO STACKERS….
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Adding Debug.Tx() or TV.Out() or GOD FORBID extra LEDs or Pushbuttons is just beyond the realm of the new generation of so called programmers who have been irredeemably atrophied by all the bells and whistles that they have grown to expect and cannot do anything without.
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What is amazing to me too is that so many people on this forum just cannot seem to get to grips with the difference between a MicroProcessor and a MicroController…….is this yet one more lost concept????
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Samuel
Post Edited (SamMishal) : 11/2/2009 5:49:27 AM GMT
I'll speak from my experience. I am a second year Computer Science student. I first learned how to program in high school with Java. We weren't taught GUIs, although I managed to pick it up. Debuggers were never mentioned. Moving into college, 2/3 of my first year programming (in C++) was done at the command line. There were no real GUIs, although we were introduced to a simple set of classes that were only ever meant to be used in the classroom. There were no debuggers, although I did discover that Code::Blocks was a good IDE (still used cout debugging though). My third quarter we finally got to a debugger, but only because the language we were using (an assembly language) was completely theoretical so it had to run in a simulator on the computer.
As for microprocessor vs microcontroller, how often does it come up in a context where it makes a difference?
I can second your statement that there is a "LOST ART OF PROGRAMMING SYNDROME". But my oppinion is that these days programmers lost the ability to write efficient code in sense of code efficiency and memory efficiency. Why waste time to make the code efficient ... add a CORE or some GHz here and somg GB there and the program runs fast enough.
About debuggers I have a different oppinion - and I'm from old-school as well. They allow efficiency in debugging. Adding debug-code into the sources means to find the right place manually ... with a lot of recompiles and reruns. With a debugger you have access to variables at any time without the need to code something for it. So, what is the crutche? I think the print-statements are the real crutche and you are the one that denies to learn how to walk without.
What do you have against LEGO? Electronics is LEGO ... use chip A for MP3 decode, chip B for USB, put a controller in the middle and you have a MP3 player. ... ObjectExchange is LEGO. Computer manufacturing is LEGO. LEGO allows us to progress as you don't have to reinvent and waste time with what already has been done before. What counts are the new ideas on top level.
Debuggers have their place and printfs too. I support a Web-enabled (what?) application that I wrote using C. Without using debuggers because as it has dynamic parameters, it is just easier going the fprintf way to file and then to review the log and see where it went belly up and why.
The propeller has that ability, the printf way if you have a COG free, because you can monitor variables without interrupting the program. Just fantastic.
One of the guys, heater, did the debug of ZiCog using just one LED.
I wrote most of my assembler in the simulator and then I used it directly in the real propeller, even when I was writing the simulator as I was writing my code.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
It really does explain so much. Nick was asking me in that other thread why I brought up floating point maths, well, this is why. It's another symptom. It's about not knowing how the damn machine works. I have a thousand stories of dumbass things people have done to extremely simple systems because they didn't understand what they were doing, and I don't even work very much with what most people would call "computers." (Example: Back in the 1980's it was common for us to get a service call for a scale "weighing about half what it should." We'd show up and find it's in KG instead of LB mode.)
I think teaching people the highly abstract stuff before they know the basics is a fundamentally very flawed, stupid, and wrong approach. I think ideally we will have a world where young people can have information appliances that give them net access and games and such but are in no way end-user programmable, and entry systems like the P1 that introduce programming concepts, and nobody will ever get near one of those appliances to program it until they have a firm foundation in the fundamentals. Maybe you should have to hack the box to be able to program it even if you're hired by the manufacturer, like a rite of passage. I just think we have given so much to the gods of convenience and productivity that we have starved the god of reliability into hibernation.
That is GREAT....you obviously have a good education....I am glad and happy about that.....KEEP IT UP..... you will be among the very few....
Way too many occasions in too many posts....
Sam
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