Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
Wireless router for large plant ? Looking for recommendations. — Parallax Forums

Wireless router for large plant ? Looking for recommendations.

BeanBean Posts: 8,129
edited 2009-10-29 12:29 in General Discussion
At my work we have a plant that is about 100' x 200'. There are lots of concrete walls in the interior.
We build oscillators, so there is LOTS of RF flying around inside the building too.

We are look for a way to provide a wireless connection over the whole plant. The consumer routers that we have tried have been pathetic. They can barely get a connection over 40 feet through 1 block wall. We would like to get a connection over 200 feet going through 3 or 4 block walls.

What do we need to do ?

Put multiple wireless routers thoughout the plant ?

Put anntennas throughout the plant that run back to one router ?

Some kind of super powerful wireless router ?

I'm stumped, so I'm looking for recommendations.

Any ideas ?

Bean


▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
Yes it does...


·

Comments

  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2009-10-28 18:05
    Bean, I would look into a Repeater

    ·http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_repeater

    I would use one from the same company as your routers though.
    Who's routers are you using presentley?

    Jim

    Post Edited (hover1) : 10/28/2009 8:30:55 PM GMT
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-28 20:28
    Our internet went out and I wanted to ask a neighbor if I could jump on his internet for work but the problem was that his internet won't go through the walls.

    I found there are routers with amplified antennas and the antennas are rated in decibals but there are some that work for miles.

    I asked a tech and he said Netgear was the best router with Lynksys being the best gaming router.

    I'll try to find the antenna when I go home tonight.
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2009-10-28 20:29
    The high end routers are not much better in terms of coverage. The problem is less with the router, and more with the power limitations and even more with the frequency used for WiFi. It can not penetrate much of anything.

    Depending on how many users you have connecting, repeaters (as Jim mentions) may work OK. The potential problem is that you may end up with a "bandwidth" problem, as they all end up going back through one router. Keep in mind that with WiFi (802.11?), the wireless needs to be thought of as a "hub", and the available bandwidth is shared.

    If you have lots of people connecting in different locations, you are better off with multiple routers or go with Access Points (WiFi connection wthout the router part), operating on different channels. If they all use the same SSID and WEP Key, you should be able to move between access points pretty seamlessly.

    Security can be a concern. Even the WEP stuff isn't all that secure. You might want to have an actuall network consultant or sales engineer come in and at least discuss things with you. I don't recommend the RF survey that they will very likely try and sell to you. For far less than the price of the survey, you can buy some hardware that seems to make sense and try things out. If you don't have the coverage you need, move them around, and/or buy more. Not exactly scientific, but very practical.

    You can also look at "non 802.11?" solutions. There are other systems out there that use different frequencies, and can do better in terms of penetration. Unfortunatley, the lower frequencies that have this penetration also have lower bandwidth capabilities, and you also need special equipment and antennas on the receiving (laptop) end.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    John R.
    Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2009-10-28 20:32
    Highly uni-directional (i.e...small beam). You must aim it at a compatible ant at the other end.
    Chuckz said...
    ....·but there are some that work for miles.
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2009-10-28 20:35
    Chuckz said...
    Our internet went out and I wanted to ask a neighbor if I could jump on his internet for work but the problem was that his internet won't go through the walls.

    I found there are routers with amplified antennas and the antennas are rated in decibals but there are some that work for miles.

    I asked a tech and he said Netgear was the best router with Lynksys being the best gaming router.

    I'll try to find the antenna when I go home tonight.
    The long rang antennas tend to be very directional, and there are also FCC issues.· Technically once you change the antenna on the router, with something not specifically designed for that specific router, and submitted for testing and approved, you in violation of FCC regulations.· Chances of getting pinched for said violation are remote.

    We also don't know in this case how much of a problem the R/F created by the oscilators is a factor here.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    John R.
    Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2009-10-28 20:37
    John's solution with Access Points is better than my Repeater solution.
    Jim

    Wait..How about the short distance comms discussion over on the Prop forum. Just put a Proto Board at every corner! tongue.gif
    John R. said...


    If you have lots of people connecting in different locations, you are better off with multiple routers or go with Access Points (WiFi connection wthout the router part), operating on different channels. If they all use the same SSID and WEP Key, you should be able to move between access points pretty seamlessly.



    Post Edited (hover1) : 10/28/2009 8:46:32 PM GMT
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-28 21:08
    For plants you need to use lots of access points with wired connection back to switches.

    The best access points use 4 intenas and have gigabit eithernet truncs.

    Dual band dual frequency n is much better then g for range and speed even if all your devices are b or g.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-28 21:56
    If it was as simple as throwing a signal, you could make one of these.

    http://revision3.com/systm/surfer/
    http://www.freeantennas.com/projects/template2/index.html

    From what I understand, routers have two types of antennas:
    ·RP SMA or PP TNC

    This is a 9db antenna and it is supposed to work 1.5 miles away:
    http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2399654&csid=_21

    I think I saw a 15 db antenna somewhere.

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=NETGEAR+WN311B+RangeMax+Wireless-N+PCI+Adapter+&x=11&y=13

    I'm assuming this antenna is 5 decibals from other information on the internet.· Their other products use a SMA female coaxial cable so if the antenna isn't strong enough then you might want to run an ethernet cable through the warehouse.

    If I were you, I would call up Netgear or Linksys and talk to their customer service and get their opinion on the matter as they could recommend a range of products on the matter as I am not an expert but I am just trying to help.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-28 22:31
    I would recommend the WAP4410N it is cheap but you will need lots depending on size of plant and number of terminals.

    if you mount them to the ceiling each one will cover a reasonable sized area and with gigabit connection back to a central switch you will limit bottle necks.

    to extend range i have had great experience with Hawking Technologies. They make great hi gain intenas and booster. especially there corner intenas: http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=58&ProdID=152

    Cisco makes some higer end access points with longer ranges and can handle more users but you can expect to pay 10 times as much.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-28 22:55
    Bean (Hitt Consulting) said...



    We are look for a way to provide a wireless connection over the whole plant. The consumer routers that we have tried have been pathetic. They can barely get a connection over 40 feet through 1 block wall. We would like to get a connection over 200 feet going through 3 or 4 block walls.
    http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineEthernetAdapters/XE102.aspx

    You could try to cheat and go through the electric but if you don't have normal electric at the plant, I don't know if this will work.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-28 23:01
    these devices do not work in 3 phase commercial building. well they will some times but only if on same phase and you only use on 1 phase in building. if you use on more then 1 phase they can interfere with each other.

    also they are extremely slow bandwidth and have very high latency(1/120th of a second they transmit in bursts at 0 crossing)

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-28 23:08
    by the way the access point I mentioned WAP4410N requires no power plug if you use a POE switch like the SRW2008P

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-28 23:12
    [noparse][[/noparse]HSB2] Hi-Gain WiFi Signal Booster
    http://www.hawkingtech.com/products/productlist.php?CatID=32&FamID=72&ProdID=187

    This is only for B and G.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2009-10-28 23:13
    Right now we have a netgear (I think) "n" router. It has external antennas so I thought I would be better than the ones with internal antennas.

    We do have 3 phase power, so I don't know about the power wire routers.

    We don't have to worry too much about people moving throughout the plant. This is more for visitors and guests, but a couple employees will use it too.

    I'd say no more than 15 people using it at a time. And bandwidth is not too much of a concern either.

    If I just setup multiple wireless routers will they interfer with each other ? Do I need to set them to different channels ? (I would assume so).

    I guess there isn't an easy solution. We would probably be willing to spend up to $2K on this project, if that makes a difference.

    Currently we use MAC address filtering. So if a visitor wants to connect, they must give me their MAC address and I give them temporary access. I've been told this is much better than WEP.

    Bean.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
    Yes it does...


    ·
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-28 23:26
    I suppose you could get a qualified electrician to install Power over Ethernet:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet

    If you have a Microcenter in your area, you can get the parts:

    http://www.microcenter.com/
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-28 23:26
    WEP is usless it can be crack it in 5min using a wifi sniffer and a program designed to compute the key based on packets.

    mac addresses can be cloned and a wifi snifer can detect mac used and also copy all data sent by unsecure connection.

    best method is WPA and mac filtering.



    Do not use wifi routers. they will not interfear with each other but many residential ones can not be connected together like that and you will make it impossible to move seamlessy through the building and difficult to allow access to parts of your intranet. Using access points and a switch will make it very easy to move arround and greatly simplify the setup.

    If bandwidth is not an issue you can use wifi accesspoints and switches with 100Mbit connections but gigabit will give you much more future expandability.

    8 WAP4410N and 1 SRW2008P will run you about $1700 including the CAT5E wire between them. since the acess points are powered by the switch you will not need to hire an electricion.

    You will need 1 access point/room and for rooms greater then 100 diameter you will need more arranged so that there is not more then 50 feet between computer and access point.

    There are much cheaper access points and poe switches if the ones i have recommended are 2 expensive then search for cheaper ones.

    Things to consider:
    *POE means no electrician needed big money saver
    *WPA encryption is must if users will be accessing any private information

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • HollyMinkowskiHollyMinkowski Posts: 1,398
    edited 2009-10-28 23:49
    You can up the output power of cheap Linksys routers but
    you have to somehow keep the final cool or it burns up...I
    speak from experience.

    Does this large building have a high ceiling which would afford a
    central point that looks down on all the floor space? If so I would try
    running cat5 to a boosted router in the center of the ceiling hooked
    to an omni directional antenna with as much gain as possible.

    I have done a lot of work with those cheap 24db gain wifi dish antennas.
    They are amazing! They come with an rg8 cable with rpsma termination.
    We get them from l-com ($50).
    www.l-com.com/home.aspx
    They work well with those half watt USB
    wifi adapters (also $50) the adapters have an rpsma jack for easy connection
    to the dish and also come with a duckie antenna. I have two of these dish
    antennas at home. I mounted one outside and ran a very long home-made USB cable
    to a wifi adapter in a waterproof box. It can see so many routers you would not
    believe it...some are miles away. The other one is inside on a tripod stand and
    I can connect to routers several blocks away....a few of these antennas in weak signal
    locations would help you inside the building I'd think.

    Multiple routers connected by cat5 would work but multiple antennas to one router would suffer
    from extreme signal loss in the cable...even hardline is lossy at 2.5ghz

    You might try a few linksys routers in one location, each with 2 of the 24db dish antennas
    pointed in different directions. With 24db gain each beam would be several watts in
    erp and the gain works the same on receive so it would be like every wifi device was
    boosted drastically in power. Aiming of these antennas will be a trial and error job.
    Some antennas may reach certain locations best when aimed upward a bit toward the
    ceiling or aimed toward a metal wall...rf is tricky indoors.

    3 linksys routers 150.00
    6 antennas -24db 300.00

    If a particular spot has problems just use a half watt
    USB wifi adapter for that laptop, device or pc.

    Be aware of the fact that there is a LOT of rf in front
    of a 24db dish at 2.5ghz! Same freq range as microwave ovens
    operate on. If you use .5watt to feed a dish then there would be
    enough rf to cause some heating in anything that contains water
    (like people) I'm not an engineer so it's up to you to make sure
    it's safe....I use the antennas hooked to .5watt adapters... but I'm pretty stoic wink.gif


    24db-parabolic.jpg
    977.jpg

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    "Where am I? Where am I going? Why am I in a handbasket?"

    Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 10/29/2009 12:17:25 AM GMT
  • UnknownUnknown
    edited 2009-10-29 00:01
    Holly, the i-com.com store looks awesome.

    Bean, if you have any wireless phones in the plant, phones that operate on 2.4 Ghz may interfere if you go the Wifi route and there are phones that use the 5.8 Ghz range.
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2009-10-29 00:09
    You guys are getting way too technical. Bean just needs some extended range. If he had security issues, he would have said so.

    @ Matt WPA and Mac is good, agree.

    Bean, my opinion, Netgear Access Points, Amazon @ $112.00 each. Distribute the channels out to 1, 6, and 11 (if you use 3 AP's)

    Jim

    Then let's go from there.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-29 00:16
    i just mention that if you are only using mac filtering then anyone within range can see what you are transfering and can clone the mac of any computer being used.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    24 bit LCD Breakout Board coming soon. $21.99 has backlight driver and touch sensitive decoder.
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2009-10-29 00:38
    You are right. Have seen sniffing done, but not by me.
    mctrivia said...
    i just mention that if you are only using mac filtering then anyone within range can see what you are transfering and can clone the mac of any computer being used.

  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,935
    edited 2009-10-29 05:03
    Use multiple Linksys Wireless Access Points and various channels. Use the same settings on all including SSID, password, etc. You will be able to walk the entire floor with a laptop and not lose a connection to the internet. Windows isn't very good at automatically jumping from WAP to WAP, but there is helper apps that will force the strongest connection to connect even if the currently connected WAP is still in range. I did a setup at a place with 4 WAPs in this method and it has been working clean for 2 years. Use a standard router to manage the MAC filtering and/or DHCP.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Andrew Williams
    WBA Consulting
    WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
    Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2009-10-29 11:57
    MAC filtering is as useless as a hip pocket in a singlet. WEP can be cracked in about 120 seconds. WPA with TKIP encryption is now severely compromised and can be had in about 5 minutes.

    You really need to be using (at an absolute minimum) WPA with AES, or WPA2 with AES or CCMP and with a password longer than about 10 random characters. Short passwords can be relatively quickly subjected to a dictionary attack and compromised. Large hard disks are *fantastic* for keeping stock of pre-calculated dictionaries for quickly running a dictionary attack on common SSID's, so make sure your SSID is fairly unique too.

    Multiple wired access points is the way to go. Depending on your ceiling heights, you can get quite a decent coverage by mounting the units inverted at roof level.
    Ensure that adjacent access points are at different ends of the frequency spectrum and use a hexagonal cell structure to keep access points at least 4 channels apart if possible.

    Repeaters are ok for dead spots, but they make a significant dent in your bandwidth and will compromise a cellular configuration.

    I've used Linksys and Netgear routers in industrial situations and my current workhorse is a Linksys WRT54GL running DD-WRT as they can be group managed from a PC using ssh and a few scripts. They have a good output and sensitivity, external replaceable antennas and are pretty much bulletproof.

    I'd start just pluging them in one by one to fill holes. These units are only about $100 at worst, so you can afford to use a few of them for infill where required.

    There is little science to wireless design in concrete buildings with lots of walls.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    lt's not particularly silly, is it?
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2009-10-29 12:29
    Thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I really appreciate it.

    I will try access points thoughout set to different channels (as far apart as possible).

    Bean.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
    Yes it does...


    ·
Sign In or Register to comment.