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Propeller DIP adapter PCB — Parallax Forums

Propeller DIP adapter PCB

PhilldapillPhilldapill Posts: 1,283
edited 2009-10-23 00:25 in Propeller 1
I've been away from the forums for a good while, so forgive my ignorance, please. Last I heard, Parallax was out of the DIP40 Propeller chips. Given the large amount of smart entreprenuers here, I've wondered if anyone has made a cheap QFP to DIP40 adapter board yet. If the QFP chip is too big to fit the DIP40 width, how about a QFN? Granted, not many hobbyists can solder the QFN package, but I'm sure for a nominal fee someone out there could be making these pre-made substitutes for a small fee.

Has anyone done this? I can make my own boards, but it sure would be nice to have until the next batch of DIP40 chips arrive(assuming they are still out of stock, so don't shoot me if I'm speaking out of ignorance).

Comments

  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-10-20 19:25
    I haven't heard of any. Had someone been able to pull it off when the shortage was first announced, there may have been some benefit. But at this late date, with DIP40 arrivals imminent, there's probably not much point.

    -Phil
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-10-20 19:31
    We could do a Dip adapter, but I'm not sure how well it would sell.

    When the Dip Propeller is in stock, it would hold space on a shelf and tie up funds better suited to other items.

    James L

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services

    Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,935
    edited 2009-10-21 00:20
    Yes, QFN to DIP adapters specifically for the Propeller chip do exist (note my avatar). As a project to help me learn DipTrace PCB design software, I designed a QFN module with through-hole crystal and EEPROM sockets as well as a programming header that is completely pin-to-pin compatible with a standard DIP40 Prop. I never made any as I was uncertain the market was there for it. It's conception came from the temporary DIP40 shortage, but having the crystal and EEPROM on board make it mode useful than a straight across DIP substitute. Also, you could wire directly to it if you left off the headers. My costs if I were to build around 200 would have put the market price around $17.99. Not bad considering the chip itself is $8. I just don't have the $600 to order fabs. If there was interest, I can finalize the design and post gerbers. I also designed a backpack module that would basically make it a Propstick by adding USB and 3.3v regulator with the option to power the propeller via USB and have an onboard uSD socket.

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    Andrew Williams
    WBA Consulting
    WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
    Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010

    Post Edited (WBA Consulting) : 10/21/2009 12:28:58 AM GMT
    115 x 338 - 17K
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-10-21 00:50
    Andrew,

    We should discuss the possibility of a joint venture with your design.

    James L

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services

    Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 03:21
    my super prop now defunct would make a cheap qfn to dip converter in quantities of 1000 or more. I may reserect the project with some redoes laterl it died because large quantities of pcbs would have to be made to make cheap.

    dip props are supose to be back soon if I remember correctly.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

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  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2009-10-21 03:46
    I made up a DIP module for the Propeller back in 2007 that worked out well. It is a bit different in that it puts the Propeller in the same pin configuration as the 40-pin BASIC Stamp. There are some details on this thread:

    http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=172771

    Robert
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-10-21 04:01
    RobotWorkshop said...
    I made up a DIP module for the Propeller back in 2007 that worked out well. It is a bit different in that it puts the Propeller in the same pin configuration as the 40-pin BASIC Stamp. There are some details on this thread:

    http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=172771

    Robert

    Robert,

    I was actually thinking of a breakout that would directly replace the 40 pin DIP version of the prop. The chip would have to be offset (side or end), but I think it could be done. Only problem is the Crystal. It would really need to be on board to prevent problems. It would take some special person to lay it out. I was looking at it earlier, and there just isn't much space without getting to very thin traces (close spacing).

    This would give people the option to put it in a board if the DIP were out of stock.

    James L

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services

    Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,935
    edited 2009-10-21 06:44
    Robert, That's a really nice layout, I missed seeing that in all my searching for propstick style propeller modules. I take it the pins from the sides of the TQFP are routed under the chip since they are so tight against the headers?

    James, I'll shoot you an email with some more details as to where I am at with the design etc.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Andrew Williams
    WBA Consulting
    WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
    Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-10-21 06:51
    Andrew,

    Do that....we may be able to come up with something. I use Diptrace as well, but haven't updated yet....I'm stuck in ver 1.5 Hates until I can come up with the cash.

    James L

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services

    Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 12:51
    I was thinking about a DIP adapter when the DIP Props dried up. I can do single sided PCB's very easily via the laser toner transfer method and some off the shelf consumer products for etching. If i'm careful I can reliably do boards with 10/10 rules (10mil traces spaced 10 mils). I thought about it for a few minutes the result being that I don't think there is any way on a single sided board to get all the pins out on a 0.6" pin-wide DIP adapter. If anyone has been able to do this, let me know; I'd like to look at your layout.

    Andrew, you said, "My costs if I were to build around 200 would have put the market price around $17.99. Not bad considering the chip itself is $8." With a small profit that would put the board at around $7 or $8 USD each. Seems high. Have you checked the board prices at www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml? The cheapest I've found is the Batch PCB service via www.sparkfun.com. Usually Patch PCB is pretty slow because they pool jobs and panelize them. But at 200, I would think the turn-around would be better.

    Isn't the DIP Prop supposed to be back in stock on 5 November 2009. That cuts it too close to the Holidays if I want to make some stocking stuffers as I don't live in the US. It will take a while for stock to trickle out to distributors and Parallax' International shipping costs are too high. Maybe I'll take another crack at the laser toner board.

    Regards, David

    Post Edited (Drone) : 10/21/2009 12:56:16 PM GMT
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 12:55
    I am not sure who you use. I was using 8 layer PCB for the super prop. My PCB Costs was $2 each using blind vias also. fit form factor exact. However quantities do make things a lot cheaper.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 13:12
    At www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml:

    Quantity 200 5cmX2cm double sided plated-through PCB with no silkscreen or solder mask costs $185 USD total less shipping. That's $25 setup fee plus $0.80 per board, or $0.93 USD per board total.

    With silk screen and solder mask it is $221 USD or $1.11 USD per board.

    These numbers are from their online quote generator. 5cmX2cm is a rough estimate of a 40-pin DIP adapter. Roughly: 20-pins X 0.1" long and 0.8" wide (a wide 40-pin dip package has pins 0.6" apart).

    Traces come tinned. You supply your artwork to the fab in any number of standard EDA project file formats or straight Gerbers. These boards are panelized and then cut before you receive them if that's how you want them.

    I've used these guys before with good results. Good turn-around time and prices. I'm not affiliated with futurlec.com in any way, just a customer.

    So, Prop at $8.00 plus board at $1.11 totals $9.11. Break-away headers will add something like $50 I'm guessing. If you ship the boards from the fab by the likes of EMS it'll add perhaps $0.05 USD per board, negligible. Ship it as a kit to remove labor costs with assembly. Call it $10 even (cost) plus shipping to the end-user. You decide how much profit to take on the $10.

    Regards,

    David

    Post Edited (Drone) : 10/21/2009 1:21:59 PM GMT
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 13:26
    40 pin dipadapter is 2"x0.6" and has 40 pins.

    I would use lead frame instead of breakaway adapters. The breakaway adapters do not often fit well.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • shanghai_foolshanghai_fool Posts: 149
    edited 2009-10-21 13:33
    I think your prices are too high. My supplier is PCBcart.com and their quote is $115.30 for 200 pieces w/silkscreen and solder mask. They are in China but I have used them and they do excellent work.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 13:36
    i don't use us pcb manufacturers because shipping is to expensive. I can get made in china and shipped for the same price as shipping and duties from a us supplier.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 13:45
    PCBcart.com has the minimum specs i need. to bad they do not list there prices but require you to quote.

    Maybe I will check out how much they charge for a large 4 layer panel i need to get done.

    gold phoenix wants $660 for

    155 sq inch panel, 4/4mil width/clearance, 8mil holes, gold plating, tab routed with 3 designs on the panel.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 14:13
    @mctrivia

    Can you suggest a supplier for lead-frames? I found a company in the UK that had inexpensive lead-frames once, but they had a 1000 piece minimum order. That was the only source I could find at the time.

    I agree, the square pin break-away headers are too big, don't really plug into plug-in protoboards. Round machined pin break-away headers work well, but they're a bit more expensive and difficult to find with pins that are long enough. I think Sparkfun has some machine pin headers with pins that are around 0.2" long.

    Regards, David
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 14:16
    @mctrivia,

    Futurlec ships almost anywhere for around $4 for up to 2kg. Goes by mail. I get mine in about five days in Jakarta. But I suspect Futurlec ships from Thailand.

    David
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 14:16
    only suplier I have found has a 1000 pin minimum. $50/1000 pins is not bad investment though specially if using 40 at a time.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 14:19
    what I would like to find is a cheap fab house that can do buried capacitance. My newest products are riddled with bipass caps because I can't find a good supplier that is licensed to use ZBC-2000 in there boards.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 17:34
    @mctrivia et. al.

    Thanks for the PM reply on the break-away headers for SMD Prop DIP via Gadget Gangster, I replied suggesting we keep the thread here for all to see.

    Please provide a link to the $50/1000 lead-frame vendor you found. It may be the same one I found (lost the link). $50/100 at 40-pins per DIP break-out-board (BOB) adds $2 to the board cost (ouch).

    In taking another look at round-pin machine pin headers, Sparkfun has a 40-pin strip for $2.95 USD in unit quantity, $2.36 in 100's. These have pins that protrude around 0.17" as far as I can tell. I know of an over-the-counter distributor in Sim Lim Tower, Singapore that deals specifically with this type of thing. Maybe I'll exercise him on this subject (I'm in Jakarta). Maybe I can get something like $0.02 USD per pin or less in 1,000's. Here's a link to the Sparkfun headers:

    www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=117

    Home-brew BOB and pins instead of square break-away headers...

    I made some little 1" square single-sided TQFP32 to 0.1" spacing BOB's using the laser toner method. Attached is a picture of the the first attempt at the TQFP32 BOB. This is a bad example, I over-etched a bit; latter results are much better, but no pictures. Sorry. The picture has an Indonesia Rupiah 100 coin beside it for comparison (I live in Jakarta). The 1999 coin date is just the coin I happened to have in my pocket; not the date the board was made.

    For the BOB pins here's what I do...

    Plug some pieces of over-length 18 or 20 AWG (~1mm) solid pre-tinned Cu wire. (pre-tinning makes the wire stiffer and prevents oxidation) into a plastic 0.1" plug-in protoboard - in a row. Capture the wires with a piece of sticky tape, duck (duct) tape works good. Pull the row of "pins" out of the protoboard and plug them into the BOB, then solder them to the BOB pads. The duck tape keeps the 0.1" spacing and allows all the pins to be soldered quickly compared with soldering each pin individually.

    Take off the duck tape, clean the pins of any tape residue (often not necessary depending on the tape you use), then trim the pins to length. Works well. Not a production method though. But that's the whole idea, fast-simple prototype boards without the external fab cost and long turn-around time.

    It took about two hours to make the first TQFP32 BOB from layout to product. Now that that's done, I can make as many as I want at around 20-30 minutes per batch. Most of that time is etching as I cannot get concentrated oxidizer which is over the counter hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as H2O2 is starting to be controlled as a possible bomb-making agent. I use 3% H2O2 (no way to make a bomb with that) with a consumer porcelain cleaner product to etch, all over the counter and quite cheap, less than $0.05 (roughly) in chemical costs per board. I try to use phenolic boards instead of glass fiber as they are easy to cut with a box-cutter instead of the likes of a scroll saw, and I can't easily get hardened drill-bits to deal with glass fiber locally. Yes I can do double sided using various methods. My favorite is using thinner single sided boards and gluing them back to back with alignment holes.

    There's a nice Yahoo Group about home-brew PCB's; if anyone is interested in the likes of the laser toner method (and more) here:

    tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

    As stated before, these single-sided laser toner BOB's will probably not work for a standard wide 40-pin DIP BOB layout, even with 10/10 rules. I need to look at it more though. It's the DIP's 0.6" wide pin spacing that doesn't leave enough room for enough single-sided traces; maybe hang the chip off the end of the plug-in prototype board and make it wider... Hmmm.

    Best Regards, David
    1024 x 577 - 82K
  • DroneDrone Posts: 433
    edited 2009-10-21 17:37
    @mctrivia,

    Oops, forgot: Regarding ZBC-2000/1000 Buried Capacitance (BC)...

    It's been a long time since I've even thought about this. If you're serious about this PCB technology then you probably know the history and the link below to some fab and material companies that support BC. But I toss it out anyway.

    www.sanmina-sci.com/Solutions/pcb_resource.html

    Best Regards, David
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-10-21 18:27
    Ya seen. Just have not figured if any of those are good price.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2009-10-21 18:48
    Problem is that 100-200 pcbs is a small quantity. Setup costs and shipping is the major cost, without time. If you do it for the love of it (hobby) and you don't sell all your bits and have small uncommercial margins, you make a huge loss. If you put a semi-commercial margin, hobbyists think you are ripping them off, but you are only covering what you are likely to be stuck with.

    All that said, the prop DIP is due back in stock in a couple of weeks according to Ken's latest post. How many sales have been lost?

    BTW: Coley, do you have a DIP pcb too???

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
    · Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2009-10-21 21:25
    All us lot will wait and buy the chips anyway, the commertial bunch will be a lot less willing/able to delay anything. Out of interest are there any largescale users or is it just us, I sort of feel guilty just having three of them, and they get used over and over in different guises.

    Drone.

    I do toner tranfer too, but 10/10 is a whole bunch finer than the 20mil spaced 50mil that I can usually bet on.

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    Style and grace : Nil point
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2009-10-21 22:21
    I think most commercial users are probably using smt

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
    · Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,935
    edited 2009-10-22 07:09
    For a version that has the QFN Prop, SMT 64k EEPROM, 5Mhz SMT Crystal, 1x20 headers, 4 pin programming header, and obvious passives, the cost would be $11.25 plus manufacturing costs. I have been using $1 for my PCB cost estimates because I can buy 520 for $600. (with mask, silk, etc).

    I reviewed my earlier post again and realized the $17.99 estimate amount I mentioned was from the tab on my spreadsheet for a version that's basically a propstick that's completely DIP40 compatible. That's factoring that manufacturing costs would be zero (I have access to proper equipment and I would work for free wink.gif. The profit for a $17.99 price would be less than 10%. So you would really just be recovering costs.

    So you can see the catch is with the capital required for the PCBs to kick it off. I wouldn't have to buy Propeller chips in mass because I can run over to Parallax as orders came through.

    As I mentioned before, my design was started by the DIP40 shortage, but it isn't meant to replace the DIP40 nor was it meant to make money during the shortage. It's meant to be a DIP40 equivalent that only requires power connections for it to be used.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Andrew Williams
    WBA Consulting
    WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
    Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010

    Post Edited (WBA Consulting) : 10/22/2009 7:32:27 AM GMT
  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2009-10-23 00:25
    James Long said...
    RobotWorkshop said...
    I made up a DIP module for the Propeller back in 2007 that worked out well. It is a bit different in that it puts the Propeller in the same pin configuration as the 40-pin BASIC Stamp. There are some details on this thread:

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=632906
    Robert,

    I was actually thinking of a breakout that would directly replace the 40 pin DIP version of the prop. The chip would have to be offset (side or end), but I think it could be done. Only problem is the Crystal. It would really need to be on board to prevent problems. It would take some special person to lay it out. I was looking at it earlier, and there just isn't much space without getting to very thin traces (close spacing).

    This would give people the option to put it in a board if the DIP were out of stock.

    James L

    When I originally made this board the DIP version of the Propeller was plentiful.· It was really done as an upgrade path for some peojects where I has used a BS2p40 and since that was the standard for the 40pin Stamp modules I wanted to adhere to that.· The module has an on board MAX3232 chip and make the reset logic work like the stamp so the Stamp serial programming cable works for the module just as if it was a Stamp.· It also has the crystal and voltage regulator tucked up underneath similar to what I did on the SX48 OEM module I made.· All of the PCB's were made in the US.

    This was a fun project and I could easily have a run of the boards made but I don't think there is enough people that want/need a Propeller to sit in place of a BS2p40 chip.· It wasn't meant as a direct replacement for the Propeller DIP but instead filled a niche for people transitioning from the Stamp.

    With the DIP version of the Propeller due in soon it probably won't make sense to make an adapter with the lead time on the PCB's.· By the time they would be ready the DIP's will be back in stock.

    Robert
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