Propeller DIP adapter PCB
Philldapill
Posts: 1,283
I've been away from the forums for a good while, so forgive my ignorance, please. Last I heard, Parallax was out of the DIP40 Propeller chips. Given the large amount of smart entreprenuers here, I've wondered if anyone has made a cheap QFP to DIP40 adapter board yet. If the QFP chip is too big to fit the DIP40 width, how about a QFN? Granted, not many hobbyists can solder the QFN package, but I'm sure for a nominal fee someone out there could be making these pre-made substitutes for a small fee.
Has anyone done this? I can make my own boards, but it sure would be nice to have until the next batch of DIP40 chips arrive(assuming they are still out of stock, so don't shoot me if I'm speaking out of ignorance).
Has anyone done this? I can make my own boards, but it sure would be nice to have until the next batch of DIP40 chips arrive(assuming they are still out of stock, so don't shoot me if I'm speaking out of ignorance).
Comments
-Phil
When the Dip Propeller is in stock, it would hold space on a shelf and tie up funds better suited to other items.
James L
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Post Edited (WBA Consulting) : 10/21/2009 12:28:58 AM GMT
We should discuss the possibility of a joint venture with your design.
James L
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
dip props are supose to be back soon if I remember correctly.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=172771
Robert
Robert,
I was actually thinking of a breakout that would directly replace the 40 pin DIP version of the prop. The chip would have to be offset (side or end), but I think it could be done. Only problem is the Crystal. It would really need to be on board to prevent problems. It would take some special person to lay it out. I was looking at it earlier, and there just isn't much space without getting to very thin traces (close spacing).
This would give people the option to put it in a board if the DIP were out of stock.
James L
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
James, I'll shoot you an email with some more details as to where I am at with the design etc.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Do that....we may be able to come up with something. I use Diptrace as well, but haven't updated yet....I'm stuck in ver 1.5 Hates until I can come up with the cash.
James L
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
Andrew, you said, "My costs if I were to build around 200 would have put the market price around $17.99. Not bad considering the chip itself is $8." With a small profit that would put the board at around $7 or $8 USD each. Seems high. Have you checked the board prices at www.futurlec.com/PCBService.shtml? The cheapest I've found is the Batch PCB service via www.sparkfun.com. Usually Patch PCB is pretty slow because they pool jobs and panelize them. But at 200, I would think the turn-around would be better.
Isn't the DIP Prop supposed to be back in stock on 5 November 2009. That cuts it too close to the Holidays if I want to make some stocking stuffers as I don't live in the US. It will take a while for stock to trickle out to distributors and Parallax' International shipping costs are too high. Maybe I'll take another crack at the laser toner board.
Regards, David
Post Edited (Drone) : 10/21/2009 12:56:16 PM GMT
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Quantity 200 5cmX2cm double sided plated-through PCB with no silkscreen or solder mask costs $185 USD total less shipping. That's $25 setup fee plus $0.80 per board, or $0.93 USD per board total.
With silk screen and solder mask it is $221 USD or $1.11 USD per board.
These numbers are from their online quote generator. 5cmX2cm is a rough estimate of a 40-pin DIP adapter. Roughly: 20-pins X 0.1" long and 0.8" wide (a wide 40-pin dip package has pins 0.6" apart).
Traces come tinned. You supply your artwork to the fab in any number of standard EDA project file formats or straight Gerbers. These boards are panelized and then cut before you receive them if that's how you want them.
I've used these guys before with good results. Good turn-around time and prices. I'm not affiliated with futurlec.com in any way, just a customer.
So, Prop at $8.00 plus board at $1.11 totals $9.11. Break-away headers will add something like $50 I'm guessing. If you ship the boards from the fab by the likes of EMS it'll add perhaps $0.05 USD per board, negligible. Ship it as a kit to remove labor costs with assembly. Call it $10 even (cost) plus shipping to the end-user. You decide how much profit to take on the $10.
Regards,
David
Post Edited (Drone) : 10/21/2009 1:21:59 PM GMT
I would use lead frame instead of breakaway adapters. The breakaway adapters do not often fit well.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Maybe I will check out how much they charge for a large 4 layer panel i need to get done.
gold phoenix wants $660 for
155 sq inch panel, 4/4mil width/clearance, 8mil holes, gold plating, tab routed with 3 designs on the panel.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Can you suggest a supplier for lead-frames? I found a company in the UK that had inexpensive lead-frames once, but they had a 1000 piece minimum order. That was the only source I could find at the time.
I agree, the square pin break-away headers are too big, don't really plug into plug-in protoboards. Round machined pin break-away headers work well, but they're a bit more expensive and difficult to find with pins that are long enough. I think Sparkfun has some machine pin headers with pins that are around 0.2" long.
Regards, David
Futurlec ships almost anywhere for around $4 for up to 2kg. Goes by mail. I get mine in about five days in Jakarta. But I suspect Futurlec ships from Thailand.
David
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Thanks for the PM reply on the break-away headers for SMD Prop DIP via Gadget Gangster, I replied suggesting we keep the thread here for all to see.
Please provide a link to the $50/1000 lead-frame vendor you found. It may be the same one I found (lost the link). $50/100 at 40-pins per DIP break-out-board (BOB) adds $2 to the board cost (ouch).
In taking another look at round-pin machine pin headers, Sparkfun has a 40-pin strip for $2.95 USD in unit quantity, $2.36 in 100's. These have pins that protrude around 0.17" as far as I can tell. I know of an over-the-counter distributor in Sim Lim Tower, Singapore that deals specifically with this type of thing. Maybe I'll exercise him on this subject (I'm in Jakarta). Maybe I can get something like $0.02 USD per pin or less in 1,000's. Here's a link to the Sparkfun headers:
www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=117
Home-brew BOB and pins instead of square break-away headers...
I made some little 1" square single-sided TQFP32 to 0.1" spacing BOB's using the laser toner method. Attached is a picture of the the first attempt at the TQFP32 BOB. This is a bad example, I over-etched a bit; latter results are much better, but no pictures. Sorry. The picture has an Indonesia Rupiah 100 coin beside it for comparison (I live in Jakarta). The 1999 coin date is just the coin I happened to have in my pocket; not the date the board was made.
For the BOB pins here's what I do...
Plug some pieces of over-length 18 or 20 AWG (~1mm) solid pre-tinned Cu wire. (pre-tinning makes the wire stiffer and prevents oxidation) into a plastic 0.1" plug-in protoboard - in a row. Capture the wires with a piece of sticky tape, duck (duct) tape works good. Pull the row of "pins" out of the protoboard and plug them into the BOB, then solder them to the BOB pads. The duck tape keeps the 0.1" spacing and allows all the pins to be soldered quickly compared with soldering each pin individually.
Take off the duck tape, clean the pins of any tape residue (often not necessary depending on the tape you use), then trim the pins to length. Works well. Not a production method though. But that's the whole idea, fast-simple prototype boards without the external fab cost and long turn-around time.
It took about two hours to make the first TQFP32 BOB from layout to product. Now that that's done, I can make as many as I want at around 20-30 minutes per batch. Most of that time is etching as I cannot get concentrated oxidizer which is over the counter hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as H2O2 is starting to be controlled as a possible bomb-making agent. I use 3% H2O2 (no way to make a bomb with that) with a consumer porcelain cleaner product to etch, all over the counter and quite cheap, less than $0.05 (roughly) in chemical costs per board. I try to use phenolic boards instead of glass fiber as they are easy to cut with a box-cutter instead of the likes of a scroll saw, and I can't easily get hardened drill-bits to deal with glass fiber locally. Yes I can do double sided using various methods. My favorite is using thinner single sided boards and gluing them back to back with alignment holes.
There's a nice Yahoo Group about home-brew PCB's; if anyone is interested in the likes of the laser toner method (and more) here:
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/
As stated before, these single-sided laser toner BOB's will probably not work for a standard wide 40-pin DIP BOB layout, even with 10/10 rules. I need to look at it more though. It's the DIP's 0.6" wide pin spacing that doesn't leave enough room for enough single-sided traces; maybe hang the chip off the end of the plug-in prototype board and make it wider... Hmmm.
Best Regards, David
Oops, forgot: Regarding ZBC-2000/1000 Buried Capacitance (BC)...
It's been a long time since I've even thought about this. If you're serious about this PCB technology then you probably know the history and the link below to some fab and material companies that support BC. But I toss it out anyway.
www.sanmina-sci.com/Solutions/pcb_resource.html
Best Regards, David
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
All that said, the prop DIP is due back in stock in a couple of weeks according to Ken's latest post. How many sales have been lost?
BTW: Coley, do you have a DIP pcb too???
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Drone.
I do toner tranfer too, but 10/10 is a whole bunch finer than the 20mil spaced 50mil that I can usually bet on.
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Style and grace : Nil point
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: CPUs Z80 etc; Micros Altair etc;· Terminals·VT100 etc; (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
I reviewed my earlier post again and realized the $17.99 estimate amount I mentioned was from the tab on my spreadsheet for a version that's basically a propstick that's completely DIP40 compatible. That's factoring that manufacturing costs would be zero (I have access to proper equipment and I would work for free . The profit for a $17.99 price would be less than 10%. So you would really just be recovering costs.
So you can see the catch is with the capital required for the PCBs to kick it off. I wouldn't have to buy Propeller chips in mass because I can run over to Parallax as orders came through.
As I mentioned before, my design was started by the DIP40 shortage, but it isn't meant to replace the DIP40 nor was it meant to make money during the shortage. It's meant to be a DIP40 equivalent that only requires power connections for it to be used.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Post Edited (WBA Consulting) : 10/22/2009 7:32:27 AM GMT
This was a fun project and I could easily have a run of the boards made but I don't think there is enough people that want/need a Propeller to sit in place of a BS2p40 chip.· It wasn't meant as a direct replacement for the Propeller DIP but instead filled a niche for people transitioning from the Stamp.
With the DIP version of the Propeller due in soon it probably won't make sense to make an adapter with the lead time on the PCB's.· By the time they would be ready the DIP's will be back in stock.
Robert