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Data Transfer From the Propeller to a PC file Using RobotBASIC - Page 2 — Parallax Forums

Data Transfer From the Propeller to a PC file Using RobotBASIC

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  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2009-10-22 01:07
    Re BradC But the C++ version will compile unmodified on pretty much every platform currently available

    Yes, one thing you can say about C is that it seems a lot more standardised. There are variants of C for the propeller (right?) and I wonder if C might satisfy the criteria of code that can run on both a PC and a propeller. If it does, well, then that makes the goal of running robotbasic on the prop even more urgent!

    For the moment I'm happy running Sbasic on the prop, as Sbasic has the advantages of basic (strings in particular) but the structure of C. But it has the downside of slow compilation (2 minutes) and that is very slow compared with F10 for spin/pasm (about 1 sec). The more programming I do, the more I am finding that my most important criteria for any language is the time to compile and run. And things are not necessarily getting better with faster computers either. Mbasic on CP/M on a 1980 vintage computer will run a Hello World instantly (<0.1 secs). The latest incarnation of microsoft's basic (vb.net) on the newest PC still takes many seconds (and is slower than an F10 on the prop).

    Of course, robotbasic passes this test with flying colours!

    Oh, for a robotbasic to pasm compiler...

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    www.smarthome.viviti.com/build
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2009-10-22 05:00
    SamMishal said...
    BradC said...
    It's horses for courses.
    Absolutely.....that is exactly what I keep saying.....a good rider can ride any horse for any course.
    But as you agree....RB is a good TRAINING horse...but just as with a training horse it can also be used

    I'm not sure I agree with that. By giving them a language that accepts so many varied and combined variants of a syntax you completely omit teaching the some of the most important parts of programming (structure and regimentation). If they ever want to progress to a more powerful language they now lack some of the most basic skills required to jump from language to language.

    But then I'm one who believes one of the best points of the Propeller is it does not have BASIC (yet). If you want to learn how to use it you actually need to learn another language. I see that as a plus as it teaches some more of programming first principles and lets people take their training wheels off.

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    lt's not particularly silly, is it?
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 10:17
    BradC said...

    I'm not sure I agree with that. By giving them a language that accepts so many varied and combined variants of a syntax you completely omit teaching the some of the most important parts of programming (structure and regimentation). If they ever want to progress to a more powerful language they now lack some of the most basic skills required to jump from language to language.
    Hi Brad,
    ·
    Back when GPS systems were just starting to come out, I had a flight instructor, who swore that those devices were DANGEROUS.
    ·
    His argument was multifaceted and went like this:
    1-···· They distract the pilot from looking out of the window and from attending to the systems.
    2-···· They make the pilot lazy and his/her navigation skills may deteriorate
    3-···· They can fail INSEDIOUSLY and thus mislead the pilot into danger
    ·
    His solution was that these systems should not be ALLOWED. He also insisted on·foretelling the future by saying that these GADGETS would never catch on.
    ·
    The over controlling but well meaning paternalistic attitude of this VERY CAPABLE Pilot and GREAT INSTRUCTOR made him forbid any of his students from using GPS systems and he refused to have them installed in any of the fleet’s airplanes.
    ·
    He did not realize that a person can always opt to use the GPS or not. By giving the student the choice you enhance his learning experience and the instructor can always IMPOSE conditions for restricting the use when needed. But by not having it in the airplane altogether YOU HAVE NO CHOICE…..there is no flexibility.
    ·
    Of course nowadays a GPS system is an indispensable part of the instrument panel of even the smallest airplanes let alone the Airliners.
    ·
    The instructor can always RESTRICT the student from using the GPS, but if it becomes needed for any reason the fact that it is there is a MAJOR SAFETY ENHANCER.
    ·
    Also by double checking the “manual” navigation by verifying it with the GPS on occasion can ENHANCE the educational EXPERIENCE and adds to the SKILL level of the student. Nowadays the FAA encourages the development of MULTITASKING skills by using multiple SYSTEMS.
    ·
    I say “manual” in quotes because no pilot REALLY uses REAL MANUAL navigation. We use Compasses, VORs, DMEs, etc. (not these days anymore, the GPS has taken over).· Even if you use only the compass….you are still relying on a TECHNOLOGY….so why is the GPS any different? It is just ANOTHER technology!
    ·
    A good friend and I used to go out occasionally in good VFR weather and cover up almost all instruments even the ASI and try to fly by the seat of our pants and by listening to the engine sound and the whoosh of the wind and using our eyes. We did this for the pleasure and the challenge. But we would STILL carry our GPS with us and have it ready for use JUST IN CASE and also the one between the two of us who was not doing the MANUAL flying kept an eye on the GPS to make sure we did not venture into restricted airspace.
    ·
    My point is that by imposing RESTRICTIONS you are taking away the CHOICE. By having MORE you can always SELF RESTRICT and use LESS, but it is YOUR CHOICE not one IMPOSED on you by someone else who THINKS he knows what is good for you.
    ·
    Have a look at these videos and tell me how someone who learns to do this kind of programming in RB would be in any way disadvantaged when s/he wants to do it in another language. BUT….tell me how long will it take a novice programmer using C++ to be able to reach the skill level to do the same thing…..
    ·
    See this one ATLEAST…it is also the subject of an article that is in the Nov 2009 issue of Servo Magazine that is about to come out.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/john30340#p/a/u/1/Q94WKdn3uF8·
    ·
    PLEASE watch this one too, it shows wireless remote robot control from a PC suing RB, and some great ENGINEERING applications.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/john30340#p/a/u/0/0wL4mGo17bM
    ·
    This one shows how SIMPLE it is to do ANIMATION using RB, which is a subject that along with robotics FACINATES young ones. Within 10 minutes it shows how to write and improve a simple but effective interactive animation. Since you know what it would take to do the same thing in C++ or Java….ask yourself….which exercise would be more ACHIEVABLE by a High Schooler???
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EULYbnAxJu0&feature=channel_page
    ·
    If you have time also look at this one and ponder over what it would take to do something similar with a REAL robot or any other means. Also think about how doing this kind of programming as you can see being developed in the video can be in any way not helpful???
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Gt3IgdcMc&feature=related
    ·
    ·
    ·
    With respect
    ·
    Samuel

    Post Edited (SamMishal) : 10/24/2009 2:22:23 PM GMT
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-10-23 10:54
    Sam, Please don't SHOUT all the time. Its does nothing to support or enhance your argument and just annoys people.

    Now, I do actually agree with what you are saying. We are living in a world full of software much of which was create by people who, when they were kids, found with great delight that they could bang some simple commands into a C64, say, and it magically did what they wanted. Very simple, instant results, BINGO, the light goes on and they are inspired to explore further.

    Had those computers been supplied with a C compiler and a copy of K&R I don't think they would have had the same effect.

    In this era I am very glad that there are such things as the Propeller and Spin and RobotBasic and robot hardware kits, etc etc which have taken over that inspirational role.

    I also agree with BradC there comes a point when there must be discipline, structure, some order imposed on the ever increasing chaos of any software project.

    However I don't think a 10 year old meeting programming for the first time should be subject to the same rigor as a team of engineers building a fly-by-wire system. Kids have to play and explore and they need that instant feedback.

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • BradCBradC Posts: 2,601
    edited 2009-10-23 10:57
    SamMishal said...
    Have a look at these videos and tell me how someone who learns to do this kind of programming in RB would be in any way disadvantaged when s/he wants to do it in another language. BUT….tell me how long will it take a novice programmer using C++ to be able to reach the skill level to do the same thing…..

    Sam, I'm not slamming RobotBasic. I think it's a great tool if you want to program BASIC on Windows. I just think the flexibility in syntax makes it a poor teaching language. I'll not comment any more, I'll just go and pull up a chair next to jazzed.

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    lt's not particularly silly, is it?
  • iDaveiDave Posts: 252
    edited 2009-10-23 11:27
    I didn't think Sam was shouting and would bet most won't. When people overuse exclamation marks!!!! - I get that as shouting and annoys me to no end or use capitals throughout an entire entry or heaven forbid BOLD all the way thru. He's just putting stress on certain points he's making.(mostly thoughtful and not a shouting rant) Same as the textbooks we all have read. There's bold, italicized and all flavor of formats in those teaching books. I never put them down cause I thought they were SHOUTING at me...maybe because I was lazy. lol lol.gif

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    "A complex design is the sign of an inferior designer."
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 12:42
    Hi Heater.....

    I am very sorry you perceive my style as shouting.....I did not mean it like that at all.....As a manager
    I used to get tons of reports and things to read and tended to skim read....this of course resulted
    in some things getting overlooked or misunderstood or not appreciated for what they were.....

    So as a result I got into the habit of asking people to highlight the salient points in some way or another
    using highlighter or bolding or or or.....

    I find that life in our age is too fast and hectic and not many have time to read every word in every
    line in every paragraph......unfortunately this dilutes the point.....

    Also when you talk with people you do inflections and gestures that help the interlocutor to get the
    meaning better.....I find that by stressing certain words you can imitate this gesturing or stressing
    in speech but in writing instead......

    So if you have a better method for doing this kind of talking-written-word I would appreciate the
    suggestion.

    Notice how I refrained from doing anything in this text and how I think it lacks any kind of indicator to what
    parts I think are important or what parts I want you to pay more attention to.

    This forces you to do your own interpretation which mostly may not be mine....or at least you are also
    forced to read the entire thing without any skimming which again is not what I intend you to do....

    So any suggestions would be welcome.......

    ·

    Regards

    ·

    Sam

    ·
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 12:45
    Hi iDave,

    THANKS...VERY MUCH....You stated exactly my intention......I find that while skim reading
    it is nice to have SALIENT things pointed out to me by the writer so that I can get the
    important part of the written text.

    I am glad you saw it as I do.....makes me feel better...

    Thanks

    ·

    Samuel
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 12:56
    BradC said...
    ·I'll not comment any more,
    OH NO....PLEASE....do NOT do that.......I enjoy intelligent informed discussions.......your opinion is
    WELL respected by me.....I am only trying to change·it tongue.gif ...it does not mean I do not appreciate it or
    am offended by it.....on the contrary .....I understand and appreciate your points.
    ·
    Actually....I am very much in need of opinions by informed educated people like you. It helps me
    formulate my own or at least understand what shortcomings there are in my logic.
    ·
    So please keep coming.....smile.gif
    BradC said...
    I'll just go and pull up a chair next to jazzed.
    Also.....PLEASE.....do NOT do this ..........you deserve a front seat.....

    Sam
    ·
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-10-23 15:41
    Well OK it's not shouting. I'm happy with larger text, upper case or bold to add emphasis here and there but what's with the extra large text all the time. Maybe my browser (Firefox) is displaying it with some exaggeration. Overuse of these things makes the whole post look like a mess.

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    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2009-10-23 16:48
    Well it's shouting to me. That combined with the long running rants is very irritating. Good thing A.I. is not the topic wink.gif
    I'll avoid thread responses to the OP from now since arrogance seems to out-weigh reason unless apparently one agrees with OP.

    But first ....

    The only reason I commented at all is because OP was promoting an agenda using the worst possible alternative of the language being compared. C++ cout stream syntax sucks terribly in my opinion. Of course other OOP languages such as Java or C# are better than C++ ... Basic in any form though from 20 goto 10 (cringe) to VB.net just does not get me excited. If it excites others, that's OK.
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 19:42
    heater said...
    ·Overuse of these things makes the whole post look like a mess.
    Noted.....willco......

    Sam
    ·
  • SamMishalSamMishal Posts: 468
    edited 2009-10-23 19:58
    heater said...
    However I don't think a 10 year old meeting programming for the first time should be subject to the same rigor as a team of engineers building a fly-by-wire system. Kids have to play and explore and they need that instant feedback.
    ABSOLUTELY.....also RB·provides a platform with which they CAN play with TANGIBLE and EDIFYING as well as STIMULATING results.....
    Check out·our two books "Robots In the Classroom"· and "RobotBASIC For Beginner" written with High school children in mind. But also they can
    GROW with RB as well. Once they reach a more advanced level they can use Robot Programmers Bonanza to learn more about engineering
    and robotics in a more advanced way, but still just as stimulating.
    ··

    Sam
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