Stingray Robot Feedback
Chris Savage
Parallax EngineeringPosts: 14,406
Hello everyone! This thread is intended to be a Stingray comment/feedback/Q&A thread and therefore I will be moderating it (removing off topic posts). That said I wanted you all to know that we are aware of the posts regarding the Stingray. This includes posts talking about wanting one, buying one having questions or concerns, etc. With a flurry of new products staff is stretched a little thin this time of year and so addressing everything becomes a little more difficult.· The first 50 kitted robots have sold pretty fast.
On that note the Stingray was designed for you, the customer and we tried to pay attention in our early posts to feedback regarding development of the robot, but once all the parts were in there is all this stock sitting and so it all needs to be kitted and move to the customer who by now has been waiting some considerable time since the first sneak peeks of the new robot. Looking at some of the posts I personally feel that not all of the customer feedback was taken into account during the design phase and we certainly didn't get into things like accessories. So, let me first start by addressing some of the questions from the various threads as well as some that were sent via PM and e-mail...
Yes, we were planning on wheel encoders at some point. Originally we considered the US Digital units but cost was a concern. By the time this happened there was not sufficient time to get a design finalized before the robots were ready to sell. Plus the encoders were always planned as an add-on.
The battery question has been beat to death and then dragged around several times (especially internally). Originally we wanted to include the battery (or batteries), but again we were faced with cost concerns and you have probably noticed we kept the price under $300.00, which was difficult to accomplish. To be honest, I'm not sure how to answer the battery question except to say, see the survey below.· [noparse];)[/noparse]
Sensors...yes, the search for an inexpensive sensor solution was researched various times. Most everyone who saw the Stingray with the PING))) sensors installed thought we were going to ship them that way. Not only would that raise the cost, but the thought I kept going back to is that every customer is different. In looking at robots built by customers who started with a chassis and built from there, ultrasonic sensors were by far the most common, but the selection of sensors did vary widely, especially among IR. In the end it was decided that perhaps the customer should decide, but there always was the intention of providing the base building blocks. The included sensors will allow you to get the Stingray roaming about, albeit not at full speed, but as an advanced robot I thought by now we would have seen the first Stingrays already customized by their owners and doing whatever task they were programmed to do, fast.
Videos...yes, there will be videos, but like application examples it requires some time to develop the application in order to capture some video of it. When I first published the sneak peeks I had a robot ready for testing with several future add-ons such as line following, encoders, etc. The PING))) sensors were there too as well as some Sharp GP2D12 IR sensors. The goal at that time was to address each thing (accessory) separately and then create some complex application that could utilitize all the features at once. Time constraints forced me to set that aside, though I did test the encoders themselves as well as the IR and PING))) sensors. I even have a thermopile and a GPS mounted to the test bot, but until I get back to that code the videos will have to wait a little bit longer. Rest assured they will arrive.
Finally I saw a specification request that made my head spin...something about max speed, accelleration, etc. Realistically the Stingray could be powered from any number of sources, including the R/C batteries many of you posted. So specs in that sense can change, as well as the fact that DC motors vary widely. Then there's the PWM frequency you run the motors at. This will cause various duty cycles to exhibit different results. But the R/C battery pack is a thing of preference no doubt. The test bot (I built) uses one as well. Of course, the pictures I posted showed that and the control board had terminal blocks which were easier to add one to.
Okay, so survey time...I am compiling feedback from you, the customers. Those who have the Stingray robot and want to offer your thoughts, feedback, comments, etc. We will be using this information to help define future accessories, documentation updates, etc. for the Stingray. This in no way·implies we are going to revise anything. It is more a question of moving foward and which direction we are moving...with that I have the following questions (If you like, you can copy/paste the questions into your reply, if you would rather reply privately please send your responses to me in a PM or e-mail):
1) How well was the documentation written and what changes would you have made to its content and/or structure?
2) How do you like the mechanical/metal aspects of the Stingray (the chassis) and what changes would you make if you could?
3) Regarding the Control Board...what enhancements or changes would you make to it. If none, please tell us what you like about it.
4) What accessories would you like to see for the Stingray?
5) Do you like the current battery pack? If not what would you have liked instead?
6) Should Parallax offer a charger or do you think the average customer has the charger for the batteries they're inclined to use (I know this fits me)?
7) If basic sensors (other than the BOE-Bot IR sensors) were included, what type of sensor do you feel would be the most common choice?
8) Do you feel Parallax should provide end-user examples of the Stingray in action? If so, doing what (remember to consider question 7)?
9) Is there anything else you'd like to offer for suggestions, comments, feedback, etc.?
We'll pretend this is a kind of report card or something...you're kind of grading us on this so, "be gentle" Seriously everyone...we would like to hear back so please let us know. I would prefer to hear from those who actually have the Stingray because they will have built it and be in a better position to answer the questions, but all feedback will be accepted and appreciated. Take care.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
Post Edited (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 10/7/2009 3:15:02 PM GMT
On that note the Stingray was designed for you, the customer and we tried to pay attention in our early posts to feedback regarding development of the robot, but once all the parts were in there is all this stock sitting and so it all needs to be kitted and move to the customer who by now has been waiting some considerable time since the first sneak peeks of the new robot. Looking at some of the posts I personally feel that not all of the customer feedback was taken into account during the design phase and we certainly didn't get into things like accessories. So, let me first start by addressing some of the questions from the various threads as well as some that were sent via PM and e-mail...
Yes, we were planning on wheel encoders at some point. Originally we considered the US Digital units but cost was a concern. By the time this happened there was not sufficient time to get a design finalized before the robots were ready to sell. Plus the encoders were always planned as an add-on.
The battery question has been beat to death and then dragged around several times (especially internally). Originally we wanted to include the battery (or batteries), but again we were faced with cost concerns and you have probably noticed we kept the price under $300.00, which was difficult to accomplish. To be honest, I'm not sure how to answer the battery question except to say, see the survey below.· [noparse];)[/noparse]
Sensors...yes, the search for an inexpensive sensor solution was researched various times. Most everyone who saw the Stingray with the PING))) sensors installed thought we were going to ship them that way. Not only would that raise the cost, but the thought I kept going back to is that every customer is different. In looking at robots built by customers who started with a chassis and built from there, ultrasonic sensors were by far the most common, but the selection of sensors did vary widely, especially among IR. In the end it was decided that perhaps the customer should decide, but there always was the intention of providing the base building blocks. The included sensors will allow you to get the Stingray roaming about, albeit not at full speed, but as an advanced robot I thought by now we would have seen the first Stingrays already customized by their owners and doing whatever task they were programmed to do, fast.
Videos...yes, there will be videos, but like application examples it requires some time to develop the application in order to capture some video of it. When I first published the sneak peeks I had a robot ready for testing with several future add-ons such as line following, encoders, etc. The PING))) sensors were there too as well as some Sharp GP2D12 IR sensors. The goal at that time was to address each thing (accessory) separately and then create some complex application that could utilitize all the features at once. Time constraints forced me to set that aside, though I did test the encoders themselves as well as the IR and PING))) sensors. I even have a thermopile and a GPS mounted to the test bot, but until I get back to that code the videos will have to wait a little bit longer. Rest assured they will arrive.
Finally I saw a specification request that made my head spin...something about max speed, accelleration, etc. Realistically the Stingray could be powered from any number of sources, including the R/C batteries many of you posted. So specs in that sense can change, as well as the fact that DC motors vary widely. Then there's the PWM frequency you run the motors at. This will cause various duty cycles to exhibit different results. But the R/C battery pack is a thing of preference no doubt. The test bot (I built) uses one as well. Of course, the pictures I posted showed that and the control board had terminal blocks which were easier to add one to.
Okay, so survey time...I am compiling feedback from you, the customers. Those who have the Stingray robot and want to offer your thoughts, feedback, comments, etc. We will be using this information to help define future accessories, documentation updates, etc. for the Stingray. This in no way·implies we are going to revise anything. It is more a question of moving foward and which direction we are moving...with that I have the following questions (If you like, you can copy/paste the questions into your reply, if you would rather reply privately please send your responses to me in a PM or e-mail):
1) How well was the documentation written and what changes would you have made to its content and/or structure?
2) How do you like the mechanical/metal aspects of the Stingray (the chassis) and what changes would you make if you could?
3) Regarding the Control Board...what enhancements or changes would you make to it. If none, please tell us what you like about it.
4) What accessories would you like to see for the Stingray?
5) Do you like the current battery pack? If not what would you have liked instead?
6) Should Parallax offer a charger or do you think the average customer has the charger for the batteries they're inclined to use (I know this fits me)?
7) If basic sensors (other than the BOE-Bot IR sensors) were included, what type of sensor do you feel would be the most common choice?
8) Do you feel Parallax should provide end-user examples of the Stingray in action? If so, doing what (remember to consider question 7)?
9) Is there anything else you'd like to offer for suggestions, comments, feedback, etc.?
We'll pretend this is a kind of report card or something...you're kind of grading us on this so, "be gentle"
Seriously everyone...we would like to hear back so please let us know. I would prefer to hear from those who actually have the Stingray because they will have built it and be in a better position to answer the questions, but all feedback will be accepted and appreciated. Take care.▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
Post Edited (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 10/7/2009 3:15:02 PM GMT
Comments
1. Bring out P28-P29 with ground and 3.3/5 volts for an I2C bus.
2. Put 3.3V and ground pins by the 3.3 volt inputs or to save space add 3.3V and gnd in same format as protoboard
3. The Vin/3.3/5 volt headers could also use ground headers
The control board provides good support for 5 volt sensors but more sensors/RF devices are 3.3 volt only.
Sensors/accessories: I don't think they should be included in base product. Different people need different sensors. Parallax should offer sensors/sensor packs and accessories for sale along with demo code. Possible packs are Ping, IR distance/proximity, line following, GPS, RF comms (ideally with ability to program the Propeller), battery pack with charger, and encoders.
Metal: I would like the ability to add an additional deck with sensor plates.
John Abshier
1a) The mechanical blow-up and assembly diagrams in the doc are amazing! What sofware was used to create them?
1b) The doc needs a full schematic of the Prop board, though. I don't think Parallax would be giving away the ranch by including it.
-Phil
I would 2nd the schematic and bringing out P28/29 for I2C.
For sensor offerings, I think that "application packs" could be one way to go. For example, security patrol robot could use sensors "xyz" whereas dangerous environment sensing robot could use sensors "abc" . Application ideas along with a working program along those lines could be very interesting. At a minimum, it is my opinion that there should be an "operating environment sensor pack" offered along with a working application core that could interact with that sensor array. The purpose of this sensor pack would be "just enough" for the stingray to be able to: avoid walls, avoid stair-drops, or sense motion in its operational space.
I also plan on experimenting with the QTI Sensor to see if I can rig them to create stair-drop detectors and/or wheel-encoders (I plan to paint radial stripes on the wheel hub area). Ideas are cheaper than time however, so it will be interesting to see how far I get.
Parts Required says (6) screw, black, button socket cpa, M3, 6mm - CORRECT
In the drawing #4-40, 1/4" are shown - INCORRECT
This can cause some frustration since 4-40 will fit and thread sort of which can mess up the threads.
I would have also put Step 5 and 6 after Step 10.· It is easier to put the wheels on after the chassis is rigid and may keep some people from bending the motor mound side panels.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
·
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
·
Well written, detailed, and precise; especially happy with the explanation of each component in detail; motor truth tables helped significantly
Chassis is a good size and quality build; I would like to figure out a way to make the inside more accessible such as a quick release latch
Cross platform swaps is nice, voltage options nice, socketed crystal is smart.
TANK TREADS!!
I like the voltage choice; I have plenty of 7.2v RC rechargeable battery pack. I am not overly fond the effort it takes to swab the batteries but I can do it. And I've had the battery clip and a battery or two jiggle loose and come out several times. Today I fabricated a connector for an RC pack and Zip-tied a couple of them to the lift handles on top. Crude but it works. Easier access to the interior would allow placement of bigger packs in a lower center of gravity position.
7.2v RC packs (in Ni-MH and NI-Cd) and Chargers are readily available at RadioShack, but perhaps include a connector or two to support them.
Ping seems the reasonable choice as a standard sensor -- 1 could be standard, especially since they are readily available at RS now.
I'm not sure what your looking for here. Demonstrations? Hmmm. You don't want to take away the creativity involved in coming up with it on our own. This bot is for advanced users, right? Most should have a good idea already. As for marketing- a compilation video teaser of possibilities perhaps?
Unfortunately the only REAL negative has been damaged gears in one of the motors. I managed to break off a couple of teeth already. This thing really hauls A__! Having said that if you mess up some code and expect it to do one thing and it does another - boom! So I would like to see repair and replacement parts readily available - perhaps a kit.
I need new gears now.
Last note: I had to steal rubber grommets off of a few of my Boe-Bots - a few of them included would be really helpful.
Doc
Post Edited (doggiedoc) : 10/9/2009 1:27:14 AM GMT
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No purchase necessary. See back panel for more details.
Tired of the same old robot brains? not enough processing power? Get the Propeller Robot Module now!!
A good suggestion Brandon, but what happened was I was testing some code out in the driveway and the robots veered off slightly to the right and hit the grass at full speed at an odd angle. Soft by my standards but jolt enough to break teeth of the little gears. [noparse]:([/noparse]
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
Post Edited (Whit) : 10/13/2009 6:00:40 PM GMT
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
·
Chris I took the motor apart last night to inspect. I will get you some images tonight when I get home.
The "PING))) Mounting Bracket Kit" ( Parallax Item Code: 570-28015 ) will mount with stand offs to the "top of" the bread board mount plate using the existing holes in the bread board base plate.
To have the sensor head of this assembly "facing forward" then you must change the orientation of the sensor mount plate by 90 degrees when the plate is mounted to the servo.
I plan to support a "rotating sensor head" on the stingray. My first idea is to add additional holes to the plate in order to mount a PIR Sensor to this sensor head so that I can "look for people" while the stingray is stationary.
I'd also envision eventually mounting a MLX90614 Infrared Thermometer Module (10° FOV) ( Parallax Item Code: 28042 ) to the same sensor head when funding permits.
Suggestion for stingray (or ping sensors?). Include a smattering of extra small nuts, bolts, teflon bushings etc to assist fly-by-night mods like these. My efforts were stopped dead in their tracks for lack of these nickel parts [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Post Edited (TinkersALot) : 10/14/2009 3:35:01 AM GMT
Post Edited (TinkersALot) : 10/14/2009 3:48:10 AM GMT
10-inch Extension Cable with 3-pin Header ( Item code 805-00011 )
or
14-inch Extension Cable with 3-pin Header ( Item code 805-00012 )
or, that the user be advised to pick up a small pile of the same so that they can easily connect to these I/O points for breadboarding and/or sensor connection needs.
Just a thought to add "convenience" to the product.
Has anyone thought of any means to protect the ping sensors that may be mounted across the front of the stingray? Would a "bumper assembly" be useful, or maybe even stryrofoam blocks with cutouts for the ping sensors -- so that when the stingray bashes into something, the ping sensors do not take a direct hit.
We’re working on making many of the parts purchasable separately. This includes the motors, chassis, individual metal parts, etc. I can see the individual sheet metals parts being an easy thing to make happen. But for standoffs it could be different since many people will want different lengths to accommodate whatever they happen to be mounting in between decks.
As for protecting the PING))) sensors I tried to demonstrate that in a message I posted previously. I used small rack mount cabinet handles. If you look at the following picture:
You can see both methods used to add bumpers to the PING))) sensors. The left side uses the small rack mount handles from McMaster Carr while the second uses some hardware from around here including 2 standoffs, screws and a piece of strip aluminum. I hope this helps. Take care.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
·
1. It runs well on 7.4V lithium batteries
2. If you want to put the ping protector stand on the front (i.e. as the original stingray picture) you need to change the 2x 1/4" 4-40 screws for 3/8" 4-40 screws, the 1/4" are too short, the 3/8" work well. Would be worth mentioning this in the stingray doc somewhere.
3. The comment above by Photronix about the motor diagram on page 5 saying 4-40 screws hasn't been fixed in v1.1. Also I agree that the step of putting on the wheels is much better done after you mount the top.
4. If you want to use a PS2 wireless controller. It will not work with the 5V translators, you need to disable the translator on the pins to the wireless controller.
Thanks,
Ron
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
50 72 6F 6A 65 63 74 20 53 69 74 65
·
See http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=846290
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
The other thing that would be nice is if the direct I/O and I/O headers and voltage headers were all on a 0.1" grid. It would make it much easier for a daugther board.
1) In Step 9 the last sentence refers to 'the 1/16" hex key' where it should have said phillips head screwdriver.
2) Adding hardware will require the removal and re-installation of 16 screws, something of a pain.
3) Back to battery charging, some sort of an adapter will be required because nobody will want to remove and replace the 16 screws each time the battery needs charging. Thought should be given to adding a battery charging jack to the controller board, but for now an adapter would work.
Ron
Duffer
My solution was a trip to the local hobby shop where I found something called a BEC connector. I purchased one of each gender, plus a BEC to Tamiya adapter. The plan is to break the battery cable where it is accessible and splice in the BEC connectors. When the charger is plugged in the board and robot are isolated.
Ron
I think now I've had enough time to give this some thought. Here are my responses.
1) How well was the documentation written and what changes would you have made to its content and/or structure?
I haven't seen anything that needs to be corrected other than what has been mentioned here. Those items were not hard to figure out either. The drawings are top notch and easy to follow.
2) How do you like the mechanical/metal aspects of the Stingray (the chassis) and what changes would you make if you could?
The finish and design on the chassis is excellent. I may experiment with some different allen screws for the top plate. I think I might like the function and look of the knurled allen screw shown on one of the early pics. The motor mounts and wheel mounts are simple and work well. I would like grommets at the holes where wires pass through the chassis. I am looking for some now. I love the tail wheel and how it works. I will also probably add the rack mount handles you added as well for bumpers.
I think the way the Stingray comes is just fine. Adding stuff and customizing any robot is part of the fun.
3) Regarding the Control Board...what enhancements or changes would you make to it. If none, please tell us what you like about it.
So far, I can't think of anything I would change. I like the options that you all have built in (or provided for) like the translator disable feature.
4) What accessories would you like to see for the Stingray?
Sensors - I will add the Ping))) and I like the look of the Sharp IR detectors. Parallax sells many options already. I think it makes sense to add these as desired - rather than include them and raise the price.
Arm - A properly scaled arm or gripper might be fun too.
Wheels - In different colors.
Anodizing - In different colors.
Encoders - I would like a kit that used the extended motor shaft, a notched or slotted wheel and detector as a kit.
5) Do you like the current battery pack? If not what would you have liked instead?
I like the way it comes (for price control) but would love a nice RC type (and mounting·hardware)·and charger. You might also sell the Molex connectors.
6) Should Parallax offer a charger or do you think the average customer has the charger for the batteries they're inclined to use (I know this fits me)?
·
See above. I think yes on the charger. It would be good for those of us who do not have one - If not a source on a good match for the battery would work.
7) If basic sensors (other than the BOE-Bot IR sensors) were included, what type of sensor do you feel would be the most common choice?
Maybe IR for keeping the price down. I like the basic Stingray at the price. It is fun to add stuff a bit at a time. It also means paying a bit as you go - which works good for how I play.
8) Do you feel Parallax should provide end-user examples of the Stingray in action? If so, doing what (remember to consider question 7)?
I think this could be done very well through the forums. I do wonder how the Robot folks might better get the help of serious Propeller people on programming issues without cross posting.
9) Is there anything else you'd like to offer for suggestions, comments, feedback, etc.?
This is a great robot. I love the size (mid size) and strength of the chassis. I know it will develop over time and I look forward to that.
Lastly, The Stingray chassis needs Parallax or a Beanie·on it somewhere! I may have to put a sticker on it.
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
Post Edited (Whit) : 10/23/2009 2:21:52 AM GMT