Super Prop(now dead due to price)
mctrivia
Posts: 3,772
If you have not seen my thread in the sandbox you may be interested to know i have designed a product i call the Super Prop. It is almost the exact same size as DIP40 Prop(is slightly longer on each side) and contains:
*Prop
*2,4, or 8MB RAM
*8MB FLASH
*Max II 1270
It is pin for pin compatible with the prop and can be used as direct replacement in any product already designed for the DIP40 prop.
The max II is used as a prop to expanded memory controller and some believe it should be also usable as a high res graphics driver. At present no code has been written for the Max II on board but the device can still be used as regular dip40 prop in mean time.
To VHDL developers willing to preorder the chip I will be offering a Super Prop and Programming Rig for $200.
I plan to have the chips build for end of October, 2009 but I need to know how many people would be willing to buy? I can buy parts on credit but need to Sell 15 before November 25 to not go bankrupt.
Price for 8MB:
1: $250
10: $230
25: $200
50: $180
100: $165
250: $155
500: $150
1000+: Ask for quote
Subtract $15 for 4MB
Subtract $30 for 2MB
See picture below for simulation. Pads on top/bottom are for pins like on basic stamp, pads on sides are for optional extra io.
resistors in top right, bottom left, and middle are jumpers for options. they are populated as needed.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 10/2/2009 2:12:12 AM GMT
*Prop
*2,4, or 8MB RAM
*8MB FLASH
*Max II 1270
It is pin for pin compatible with the prop and can be used as direct replacement in any product already designed for the DIP40 prop.
The max II is used as a prop to expanded memory controller and some believe it should be also usable as a high res graphics driver. At present no code has been written for the Max II on board but the device can still be used as regular dip40 prop in mean time.
To VHDL developers willing to preorder the chip I will be offering a Super Prop and Programming Rig for $200.
I plan to have the chips build for end of October, 2009 but I need to know how many people would be willing to buy? I can buy parts on credit but need to Sell 15 before November 25 to not go bankrupt.
Price for 8MB:
1: $250
10: $230
25: $200
50: $180
100: $165
250: $155
500: $150
1000+: Ask for quote
Subtract $15 for 4MB
Subtract $30 for 2MB
See picture below for simulation. Pads on top/bottom are for pins like on basic stamp, pads on sides are for optional extra io.
resistors in top right, bottom left, and middle are jumpers for options. they are populated as needed.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Post Edited (mctrivia) : 10/2/2009 2:12:12 AM GMT
1446 x 417 - 204K
Comments
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
If not, then I am not understanding why it is five times the cost of a Prop Module.
Rich H
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The Servo Boss, a 12 channel servo tester kit from Gadget Gangster.
People not wanting to program the vhdl will be able to chose the setup they want and I will program before shipping.
while supplies last I will offer programer for free that ask. Programer is not needed you can solder wires to pads but programer makes it easier.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
There are no 40 pin Props around and yours can be used as one, at $250.
I have three socketed 40 pinners, bidding to start at $50 each (plus extortionate P+P (just like Ebay))
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Style and grace : Nil point
$250 gets you an extra 8mb ram and 8 mb flash
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
I can render back side later tonight
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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since this offers a Propeller, clock, CPLD, 8MB Flash, and 8MB SRAM solution all on a DIP40 footprint.
I find the weekend is the worst time to expect wide spread forum interest on any new topic.
Maybe Monday morning will bring more responses.
I really do believe this is a great hobby product concept; however, if it does not ship with a
functional CPLD and reasonable demo, it is just a work-in-progress to most forum readers.
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--Steve
Propeller Tools
I will ship with code as soon as possible.
Jus good to know if there is a market
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
cpld IS - EPM1270M256C4N
These parts alone make up the majority of cost. On top of this I have to fork out $2000 for the 8 layer panels.
Here is the back of the chip. Final may look slightly different I am trying to squeeze in 1 more option which would make video generation in CPLD easier.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Coupled with a propmod-us_ps_sd, it will make the basis of a great little system.
I should receive your other boards later this week, so lookng forward to getting my little ForthOS up and running.
I will have to think about upgrading to your SRam board. Looks just great. The 10ns Sram will be helpful.
Regards
Ron
on the left and right you will see there are 10 extra pads. i can mount pins upside down on these pads and make a daughter board with 8 io lines and power.
I am thinking of making one with
micro SD and mini USB connector
any daughter board could be designed though. maybe a VGA plug.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
I'm one of the ones who would not buy it because the price/features just do not appeal to me or my needs. All the performance in the prop is lost in the slow I/O. Compared to one xmos chip (the single core version) the prop is just too expensive. I can get a 32MB SDRAM and an XMOS chip for far less, have more memory, fast access times without losing that much.
What can you get for 250 bucks: a netbook or a nice processor with TFT that can even run linux!. It is not a problem if the propeller can access so much memory it is that is just too awkward. There are other architectures more suited, I think.
If you ask me for a price I'd pay it will be around 50 bucks. More, I get an AVR32 based system (I already have and committed to it getting a JTAG dongle that costs 150 bucks).
It may not be a bad idea to consider a SDRAM with CPLD (or FPGA, are cheaper at 6 bucks each) in a little bigger 2 or 4 layer board for 40 or 50 bucks. Just my opinion.
When you started I thought of something in that price range with 1 or max 2 MB RAM. 8 are sweet but you have some 70 bucks just for the SRAM, not worth it.
Edit: I built, on the cheap, single sided board 100x80, a CPLD+ 512k SRAM. It is only 15 ns SRAM but it will give me an idea how much you can get from something like what you offer. I'll post pictures and everything as soon as I have it up and running.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
Post Edited (Ale) : 9/30/2009 2:50:37 PM GMT
For LMM instruction direct fetch-ahead/execute XMM, it is not possible to run more than 2MIPS (80MHz). Part of this is because of the way LMM has to work. The other part is the way memory access has to work. If a good cache mechanism were possible with some hardware support such as magnitude comparators in the Propeller, and block loads could be fast enough, you might get close to native LMM, but even that will be less than 5MIPS. The fastest block loads would take 5 COGS + 1 for LMM, leaving 2 COGS for the user. Very unpalatable.
I have given up and moved on to more promising possibilities with Distributed Propeller Multiprocessing (DPM) to get more memory without sacrificing performance. Having N Propellers with a fast communication path would run code at normal speed either in COG, by LMM, or with Spin, would have N*32KB of user memory, would have memory available for a real application, have lots of pins for I/O, and have memory left over for double-buffered video.
Of course to make Multi-Propeller Processing (MPP) all transparent to the user, a DPM architecture with RPC/IPC is truly necessary otherwise users (especially the typical Parallax customer) will get totally lost making any headway. But such architecture is complicated and I won't consider developing that to give away, but I'll do it for me.
While it is a fun hobby to make Propeller do things it was not ever intended to do while enjoying its unique architecture, it is probably best to think practically for achieving realistic non-futzing-around goals: Use what is naturally available in a platform. If the platform does not naturally support what you need, then maybe it's time to move on to something that is a better fit.
And using a CPLD that costs 5x as much as a FPGA like the Spartan 3AN was just a good way to drive the price point of the board way beyond that hobbyists can support.
yes sd ram would significant reduce the price but how hard would the hdml be to write?
that said sounds like even at cost it is not worth it maybe i will go through the data sheet on a 16MB(128Mbit) SDRAM chip and see if i can get that working.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
The biggest gain with ditching the form factor is the added IO that can be achieved by utilizing the CPLD pins as IO Expander.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Would people be interested in a 16MB RAM, 8MB Flash Super Prop?
Price $150
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
Now for some comments... Please, please take this in the way it is meant - a little advice from someone who has done it all before. If you don't like it, tell me and I will delete this post. (I tried once before and I got flamed)
From my experience with the TriBlade...·· My original design requirements...
What did I learn....
Some other things I have learnt over the years...
- Hindsight ALWAYS prevails
- Your time is ultimately cheap (free if a hobby as it is for me)
- Money spent·is expensive
- Never lose your enthusiasm
- Always work within your limits
- Understand your limitations. I understand mine very well, so I always get someone to do what I cannot.
- Some things you can learn, some you cannot. e.g. 50% of the population can never be programmers because they do not possess a logical mind. But then we cannot do other things.
Some final comments...▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade, RetroBlade,·TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
I have scrapped the dip40 prop compliant form factor and have come up with a much better design. it is not as well shielded as the super prop but in theory that should not be a problem(theory and reality not always the same). I now have 1Gbit RAM design on 4 layer board for $120. More info on new design soon.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
1) It will be slow compared to other processors with proper buses. The bigger the RAM the worse this will seem. Applications that need that much space could also probably do with the bandwidth.
2) It will be more expensive in terms of CPLD or other glue logic.
3) It will eat up the Prop pins. Which in turn means most of the COGs become unusable as they have no I/O.
This all means one may as well have used a traditional single CPU chip in the first place.
As Cluso has described, his TriBlade has one Prop in almost normal Demo Board configuration, another Prop for I/O with most pins free, and another Prop dedicated to RAM and SD with almost no pins free. Well looking at it, the I/O prop is great for driving hardware gadgets, the Demo Board set up is great for some video, keyboard, sound etc. BUT that Prop dedicated to RAM could just as well be a traditional ARM or something for about the same price and would run stuff faster.
As it stands I love it because I can use the same simple Spin development tool on all three Props on the board and, well, ZiCog is a Prop thing but I think you can see what I mean.
With all this in mind I'd like to think about going the other way. A small RAM, 512K max, operated though an 8 bit multiplexed bus with a couple of control lines. Some ultra simple cheap glue logic to help it along. Yes I know that will be bit slower but we've already accepted that.
With this we get to keep as many free pins as possible. Therefore we have COGs that can be used. We can still use the Prop for what it was designed for, driving external gizmos using a brilliantly simple development environment.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBlade,·RamBlade, RetroBlade,·TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
The huge performance hits incurred by XMM methods are just too much for me. That's why over the last few months I've been chasing "scalable" distributed multi processing (SDMP) which is something the Propeller should be good at doing with the right code in it's native languages, would mean doing big/fast things, would be slowed only by data/messages instead of instructions after startup, won't need gobs of PCB for prototypes, and will not be limited to LED flashers and other such nonsense. I like a lot what the Infini-Prop PCB can do for SDMP (except unused space).
as for my infa prop I am glad you think it will be useful. if you get a panel of pcbs made up would love to see them in action. Not sure what you mean by unused space. I did have to dedicate a fair bit of space to power traces to allow for large scale off single power supply but i kept that almost entirely under the connectors. Yes it is no where near as dense as my prop galore or your octo prop but the prop galore was expensive and your octoprop has problems of its own. I welcome suggestions for improvement on that.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
When it fails to function I'll believe you. Until then, it's a fine software development platform.
*3d design more susceptible to damage do to droping or impact
*not feasible for large scale production
these are not problems in a lab. I think it is a great development platform.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.