Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
making your own printed circuit boards? — Parallax Forums

making your own printed circuit boards?

mikedivmikediv Posts: 825
edited 2009-09-27 00:00 in General Discussion
Hi guys I was wondering I have been wire wrapping and bread boarding my projects forever but the more robotic stuff I build the more its clear to me I have to use circuit boards I never dove into the how to but I found a lot of stuff online
are most of you using etching solution? My board are going to be very basic 2 layer at most is this the best way use chemical etching and then use a drill to drill out the holes?
Is there a package I can buy with all the stuff in it that anyone can point me to.
Thanks
«1

Comments

  • CounterRotatingPropsCounterRotatingProps Posts: 1,132
    edited 2009-09-12 00:08
    Mike,

    do the search thing here - we've had several recent posts about different ways to make boards.

    You can do simple ones with etch solution - RadioSnack has some kits for this.
    But you can also use muratic acid (dilute hydrochloric acid)... and there was a post a few days ago to a youtube (or instructables?) on putting the board in a bag with some hot water and powered chemicals (perchlorate, maybe).

    Single and double boards are pretty easy to make as long as the traces aren't too thin and the pad spacing not too dense... you'll get plenty of help here too, when you need it.

    - H

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2009-09-12 00:40
    mikediv,

    considering all the nasty chemicals you have to use and store around your living space, and considering you then have to figure out a safe place to dispose of them (don't dump them out your back window), not to mention the stink, etc. why not use a service, like expressPCB, or any of the countless other services that people will soon suggest? I'm not very experienced when it comes to electronics, but I've been able to get some impressive (to me) results from these guys:

    www.expresspcb.com/
  • T ChapT Chap Posts: 4,223
    edited 2009-09-12 00:43
    Mike. Most everyone that is developing gadgets goes through a phase of trying find a home brew way to make boards. There are methods of routing boards with CNC type machines, plus various light/stencil methods for etching. With enough parts you run into issues with limitations on a single side board, then try to do double sided boards, which opens up other issues like how to connect vias and align the art. Then you want to switch from through hole to SMT and that opens up the issue or how to get the boards assembled or how to solder SMT boards yourself. It is not known how deep you want to get with your projects, so there are variables remaining to understand to better suggest what to start with. Having gone down each one of these to an extreme, in hindsight, sending out board design for a PCB house to make was the best thing ever. The time spent in trying to sort out problems with boards and just getting up and running with homemade stuff is a complete vibe killer towards creativity and design. You really have to weigh out the total cost (time, energy, frustration, yellow tinted sinks, clothes, floors) and consider what your real goal is. For some, the process of learning to do a board at home is very rewarding and fun, for others it is a setback that only slows down the process towards having a working and reliable gadget.


    I use Eagle, and simply go on Sunstone.com, place an order and upload the Eagle .brd file (no hassle with exporting gerbers). 3 days later you have first rate boards at your door Fed Ex.

    Post Edited (Todd Chapman) : 9/12/2009 12:50:34 AM GMT
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-12 01:23
    I don't have any problems getting down to 8 mil tracks with fine-pitch (0.5 mm) devices at home. I've even done 5 mil tracks on a test board. I use the photo-etch process with artwork created on a cheap HP inkjet printer, with ferric chloride etchant. It only takes me about 30 minutes to make a PCB (plus drilling).

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-09-12 01:38
    MIke,

    Leon is a PCB god!!! He could probably do 4 mil traces if he had to. But he's had a long time to perfect his craft. I gave up DYI PCBs years ago and have never looked back. It's just not worth the hassle: the stink, rusted tools from the vapors, stains on your clothes and counter tops, and disposal issues — not to mention the investment in tools, materials, and time. The proto houses are hungry for your business and have set their pricing accordingly. Take advantage of them! (And if your significant other expresses concerns about the minute cost, be sure to mention the stains! smile.gif )

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-12 01:42
    It didn't take me long to get the process working reliably with the new printer, but I have been making my own PCBs for over 40 years. I started by painting the tracks on the copper with cellulose paint and a fine paintbrush.

    Etching isn't particularly messy - I use a plastic food container in a old washing up bowl with about 1" of very hot water in it in the kitchen sink. Continuous rocking of the inner container etches a board in about 5 minutes.

    Anyone using similar equipment and materials should be able to achieve the same results quite easily. The only variable is the UV exposure, and that is easy to ascertain with the old photographic test strip technique, or a Stouffer test gauge.

    This group is very useful:

    tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/

    Lots of members have reported similar results.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 9/12/2009 2:00:57 AM GMT
  • T ChapT Chap Posts: 4,223
    edited 2009-09-12 01:54
    8 mil, fine pitch.... been there done that. Was fun, then wasn't fun. It's all in what your goal is. If you are developing a product, order boards, refine, order again, put your time into more productive areas. If you are having fun on a hobby one-off board and enjoy spending many hours figuring it out, then have fun and enjoy the process. There is no one answer fits all.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-09-12 02:02
    Leon,

    You're in the UK. To be fair, is your penchant for DYI PCBs more a result of necessity or simply love of the craft? Here in the U.S. and Canada, we have abundant cheap proto PCB houses that compete strenuously for our business, rendering the DYI approach virtually moot. Not to disparage the UK or the PCB fab resources available there — far from it: but I was just wondering, since this comes up so many times with predictable responses from the "usual suspects" (myself included). smile.gif

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-12 02:03
    I like having a working prototype in a couple of hours. I can get double-sided boards made in 24 hours quite cheaply (£30 each plus shipping and VAT) but it's three days before I actually get them in my hands. If it's something for a client I usually get a board made professionally, but I do have a couple of customers who are still using boards I made for them years ago.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 9/12/2009 2:08:40 AM GMT
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-09-12 02:11
    Leon,

    Well, okay, fair enough: that's comparable to the situation here. I use the three days' hiatus to take a breather from the design work, to attend to neglected business, and to order parts. But I typically have enough overlapping projects that the "pipeline delay" doesn't matter.

    -Phil
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2009-09-12 04:00
    Leon said...
    I like having a working prototype in a couple of hours.....

    And in what amount of time do you like non-working prototypes? turn.gif
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-09-12 04:25
    Go with fab shop. Use to make my own but almost killed myself once.

    Now I build boards even leon couldn't make by hand. Much better to pay $200 for a panel of boards then deal with hassles of chemicals. Delay in getting back is only bad thing.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2009-09-12 14:21
    mctrivia said...
    Go with fab shop.....Much better to pay $200 for a panel of boards then deal with hassles of chemicals. Delay in getting back is only bad thing.

    $200? ouch....

    Just so you don't get sticker shock, you can get 3 identical boards, 2.5 inches x 3.8 inches made by the guys I mentioned earlier for about $65, which includes getting delivery within a few days. So if you're interested in something relatively modest, it's a reasonable place to start. Also note, you can cram a lot of functionality onto 9 square inches! They have software you download for free for a PC and it's fairly easy to learn. Look at their MiniBoard service.

    www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Specs.htm

    These "bare bones" boards arrive brown (or shiny silvery if you have a ground plane all over them) with the traces visible. At the aforementioned price, they do not have the solder mask and silkscreening, but that will not affect the functionality, though it might make it more of a challenge if you plan to use surface mount devices with teenie-weenie pins. You can pay more money and get the silkscreen and soldermask so the boards look totally professional, but it will, of course, cost more money.

    I think there's a lot to chose from if you shop around.

    good luck, have fun, and remember to eat your vegetables!
    smile.gif
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-09-12 15:57
    The problem with expresspcb is that in time you will want to advance to someone else, and all your libraries you spend time on will have to be converted. While 6 mil traces are doable, creating a pcb at home for any fine pitch components gets to be problem because of the via thing. Some fine pitch components just about require .024-.028 vias with .012 or so holes , which I doubt even leon can replicate. If he can, by all means let us in on the trick.

    I have been using ourpcb and so far I like what I have received. I can get soldermasked and silkscreened boards for less per board than expresspcb charges. You don't have to panelize them either.
  • BADHABITBADHABIT Posts: 138
    edited 2009-09-12 18:04
    Leon,

    How do you make vias on your 2-layer boards?



    roll.gifroll.gifroll.gifroll.gifroll.gifroll.gifroll.gif

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    BH skull.gif
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-12 18:19
    I usually make single-sided boards with a few wire links. If I make double-sided boards I put a piece of thin wire through the board for the vias.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • BADHABITBADHABIT Posts: 138
    edited 2009-09-12 19:19
    Leon said...
    (If I make double-sided boards I put a piece of thin wire through the board for the vias)
    That's what I do also. I was wondering if you had come come up w/a better way of doing it in your decades of experience.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    BH skull.gif
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-09-12 19:23
    For $200 I get 155 square inches 12mil vis 8mil clearance. Shipping included.

    That's 100 boards

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-12 20:24
    There are PTH techniques that can be used, but it's easier to just use wires.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-09-12 20:33
    Ourpcb is 10 boards each 107sq in #1 62sq in #2 for a total of 1690 sq in soldermasked and silkscreened, and stainless stencil in metal frame for around $800. Once you try one of these nice metal stencils you will be hard pressed to be happy with plastic.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2009-09-12 20:45
    I've been thinking along these lines.

    Right now, I'm either bread boarding, just hooking stuff up, or using matrix board and wires. Good for simple, small things.

    Would it then be safe to say making your own boards makes sense, if:

    -you enjoy the craft,
    -want the experience,
    -have a time issue,
    -on a tight budget,
    -circuit complexity is low to moderate,
    -chemical handling is not an issue,
    -physical dexterity is adequate.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
    Chat in real time with other Propellerheads on IRC #propeller @ freenode.net
    Safety Tip: Life is as good as YOU think it is!
  • P!-RoP!-Ro Posts: 1,189
    edited 2009-09-12 20:50
    Cheap kit: http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    PG
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2009-09-12 21:44
    mctrivia said...
    For $200 I get 155 square inches 12mil vis 8mil clearance. Shipping included.

    That's 100 boards

    Awesome! Who's the service???
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-09-13 00:06
    Gold phenix in china.
    They will do for $110 if you don't need rohs compliance and quite as small via.
    Get electrical testing worth the money.

    My super prop is going to be about $1000(waiting for quote) but that is 6 layers 4mil trace/clearance and 8 mil via. And blind via.

    4pcb.com is good price for serten sizes but shipping to canada is to expensive.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

    Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
  • PhilldapillPhilldapill Posts: 1,283
    edited 2009-09-13 02:12
    Mike, remember those PropBoards I made? The whole prototyping I did was on homebrew PCB's using the same process Leon uses, except I used HCl and H2O2 - both very accessible chemicals at home depot and walmart. The process is very easy, but requires a pretty good printer for fine pitch parts...

    You can also become a "PCB God" with about a $25-$40 investment in "practice" materials... All you need are transparencies, HCl/H2O2, photo-resist board(found at Fry's Electronics or elsewhere), a UV or black light, and an inkjet printer. I'd be happy to guide you through it.
  • mparkmpark Posts: 1,305
    edited 2009-09-13 15:34
    How do you DIYers dispose of the chemicals?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-09-13 16:05
    I just pour it down the lavatory. Water companies use ferric chloride to treat water and the small amount of copper doesn't matter compared to the amount leached from copper plumbing.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • VaatiVaati Posts: 712
    edited 2009-09-13 17:15
    Hi,

    I was wondering whether anyone could suggest a kit I could get to start learning how to etch boards. I know RipoffShack used to have a kit, but it was a ripoff (... hence the name) and I have not seen it on their website, or in their stores of late.

    Thanks,

    Forest

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Quit buying all those fixed voltage regulators, and·get an Adjustable Power Supply·for your projects!· Includes an LED testing terminal!

    *-NEW-* SD Card Adapter·Now available!· Add extra memory to your next Propeller project with ease!
  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    edited 2009-09-13 17:16
    Ferric chloride does not emit fumes. But hydrochloric acid does and they are corrosive (and no HCl alone does not etch copper you need also peroxosulfate).
    The problem normally is not etching but getting a good transfer method, i.e. getting a well done mask over the bare copper. photo-sensitive boards and an UV lamp are the best and you can get down to as Leon said few mills.
    Drilling also consumes loads of time specially if your drill has to be used with you hands. Get a proper stand, it saves time.
    When I was around 15 I used to make many boards a week but nowadays I prefer to use the services of some pcb-making company: my time also counts and I do not have 8 hs a day to do my hobby as when I was 15. Waiting 15 days for a board is ok. I have to get the components and find the errors I put in the board lol.gif. This gives me the opportunity to really think what I want to have and what is just "mood", if you know what I mean.

    Depending on you country you can pay to get them disposed properly (i.e. someone puts them down the drain for you).

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
    MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
    pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
    pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
    OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2009-09-13 20:12
    Leon said...
    I like having a working prototype in a couple of hours. I can get double-sided boards made in 24 hours quite cheaply (£30 each plus shipping and VAT) but it's three days before I actually get them in my hands. If it's something for a client I usually get a board made professionally, but I do have a couple of customers who are still using boards I made for them years ago.

    Leon
    Leon i'm in the UK too what fabrication service do you use?
Sign In or Register to comment.