Propeller II Current Status, Timeline, Package, Power, etc???
WBA Consulting
Posts: 2,935
I was digging through a few threads about new features/specs/requirements of the PropII, but couldn't find answers to the following:
1) What's the current design state of the PropII?
2) What's the current "guesstimate" at a product release date?
3) What package will the PropII be available in? I have seen mentions of PLCC84 and a DIP44(?).
4) I saw a post about multiple power requirements: 3.3v and 1.8v?
5) Could Parallax create a locked sticky thread for the above types of items as a preliminary datasheet?
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
1) What's the current design state of the PropII?
2) What's the current "guesstimate" at a product release date?
3) What package will the PropII be available in? I have seen mentions of PLCC84 and a DIP44(?).
4) I saw a post about multiple power requirements: 3.3v and 1.8v?
5) Could Parallax create a locked sticky thread for the above types of items as a preliminary datasheet?
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Comments
3) There will not be a DIP package. It's too expensive, particularly with only a subset of the pins available. There will probably be a DIP40 module like the SpinStamp with built-in regulators, EEPROM, crystal, etc., but that will not likely be available for a while after the Prop II is available. I believe the Prop II will require at least 80 pins.
4) Yes. The core runs on 1.8V while the I/O pin circuitry runs on 3.3V and provides 3.3V logic levels.
5) Probably not. There's really not enough hard information at this point. You'll just have to wait until the chip is closer to production. There is an unofficial Wiki with a summary of what has been discussed so far and links to discussion threads on those items (propeller.wikispaces.com/Propeller+II). Keep in mind that this is unofficial and very little is "hard".
Post Edited (JRetSapDoog) : 9/1/2009 12:53:23 PM GMT
From reading this forum and viewing the webinars, it's fairly easy to tell that Chip would love to keep us as informed as possible. However, other powers-that-be at Parallax are reluctant to do so for various business and legal reasons, which is understandable, and perhaps even Chip reluctantly agrees. That's actually for our benefit, too. What if one of us planned a new product around the Prop II (as opposed to another MCU) but then the Prop II didn't come out "on time" as expected? Then, our product might miss a market-window of some sort, and we would wish that we had considered another solution (if another one was actually available, which might not be the case).
During one of the mid-March webinars with Chip--one where participants were specifically instructed NOT to ask Chip about a release date--someone understandably asked anyway, and Chip was gracious enough to shed some light but no promises. At the earliest, the Prop II was 8 months away at that time, which would put it in the November 2009 time-frame as the earliest that anyone could reasonably hope for release (anything prior to would be a big surprise). On the other end, Chip indicated that it could be 12 months out (or more), which would put it into or beyond mid-March, 2010. That's the figure I'm using in my wishful thinking, though I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. However, even that figure was by no means guaranteed, nor has it been stated officially by Parallax. In fact, we must realize that the release of the Prop II is not guaranteed to ever come out, though it appears to be on-track and also among their highest priorities. That is, from what comments Parallax has made, one can surmise that they are making progress.
I recall reading or hearing that the basic design of the 64 I/O-pin version of the Prop (Prop I) had been completed, but that there was a probem laying it out (or similar) in one of the design tools they use, and that problem had basically thwarted further development. So, what if something like that happened with the development of the Prop II? That could really throw a money-wrench into development and trash any anticipated release time-frame that was made in good faith. I mean, given that the Propeller design philosophy is at least somewhat different than most of the chips that have come before, it is easy to see how there could be something about the design of the Prop II that trips up one of the design tools Parallax uses to implement its design. And in that event, there's simply no telling how long such a problem could take to resolve, especially since the design software belongs to another company. In addition, even if the Prop II design makes it through the design tools okay, there could still be an unexpected glitch in actual silicon. As others have mentioned in various theads, Parallax seems committed to avoiding such glitches as much as is possible. So, it's wise for us to be patient, even though it's difficult.
I'm NOT here to say that it's foolish to speculate about a release time-frame. I find this topic interesting, too! I think I once scratched a hole in the wrapping of a Christmas present because I didn't want to wait until Christmas (which is/was about as solid of a release date as one can get). After all, it's been five months, and it's only natural for us to kick up this topic again. But we can't demand or expect any definite answers. Perhaps the best we can hope for is some sort of casual statement from Parallax (or someone beyond the firing line) about whether any particularlly difficult to overcome problems have been encountered or currently exist.
Anyway, for my part, I'd be happy to just see Parallax take down those "Register Now" button links on the Webinars page for webinars that took place back in June or before. That kind of looks odd, but I know they've got their hands full with various projects under development. I'd also be interested in seeing the last two webinar videos assuming that the participants didn't get into a "food fight" or something, but maybe Parallax feels that those events have nothing new to offer beyond what the other videos already provide (or perhaps they weren't recorded or the quality lacks). Anyway, in conclusion, overall, I'm quite happy with the level of support Parallax provides and the extent to which they keep us informed on the status of their doings. For example, recently, they provided an update on the Propscope. Having said that, it doesn't bother me at all when people on this forum bring up release dates...because it's interesting and one never knows when one might learn something new. As for me, I came to the Propeller late, so there's much to learn. And it seems that the original propeller has many applications (possibly heretofor untapped) still ahead in the future.
Maybe they will make one of those shmart boards for it.
Or maybe Sparkfun will make a little board to mount it on.
Someone here who is good at layout could design a board and we could
make a group buy from a china circuit board company?
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- Some mornings I wake up cranky.....but usually I just let him sleep -
about the prop2 release date.
They may try to reduce the stock of various items that might lose a bit of appeal
once prop2 is available for sale.... they won't want to be sitting on a warehouse full
of prop1 stuff that might take years to reduce.
Prop 1 pro dev board?
DIP version of prop1?
?
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- Some mornings I wake up cranky.....but usually I just let him sleep -
Now dropping the prices on the prop1 across the board seemed to be a indication to me, but that was months ago.
The leader has much time in silence. [noparse];)[/noparse]
They also like all the power and features ;-)· Nearly all hobby / project oriented items are available in some kind of dip module form as well, so I don't think the chip format itself is going to be a big deal.·· But imo things like increased ram are going to open up possibilities for the Prop II that we would like to implment with the current Prop, but simply can't fit in or run out of cogs.
I can see the Prop II influencing Prop I sales, but pricing will probably keep things in line and continue demand for the current chip.·
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Holly,
Others have mentioned before that Prop I and Prop II will serve somewhat different needs because of the differences in chip technology used. The Prop I will be cheaper than the Prop II and cheaper to use. The package (because of the number of pins) will be cheaper. You won't need a 1.8V regulator. The Prop I will take less power since the manufacturing process for the Prop II uses smaller features which leak more current.
Keep in mind that Parallax still sells the BS1 and still sells the BS2 even though the BS2px is faster, has more memory and more features. The BS2pe, which is intended for datalogging applications, has a larger run current than the BS2 and the BS1 still has the lowest.
1. Chip mentioned 8-12 months for the release in August.
2. The company that they looked at to do the silicon no longer offers that service. They are looking at another company that will do it within the current tool chain Parallax uses.
3. As Mike mentioned there will not be a dip version but Chip said they will provide·a hobbyist friendly breakout board at an additional cost.
4. The cost of the Propeller II could possibly be only 50 cents more than the Propeller 1 per unit.
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What electronics need - MORE POWER!!!!!!!
Post Edited (blittled) : 9/3/2009 4:36:32 PM GMT
Since it sounds like the prop2 will have 2 different supply voltages
wouldn't it be handy if someone made linear regulators like the
78xx series but with a 4th pin.
In, OUT3.3v, GND, OUT1.8v
And while we are at it just add an OUT5.0v
Would be great if you could get such a beast
at the low price you can get 78xx regulators in quantity.
Or maybe such handy parts do exist and I just don't know about them?
Even better would be if the regulator was in the chip itself and could be fed
directly from a 7-12v source. It would heat up the prop2 but after seeing
that demo where they roasted the prop1 in an oven and it kept working
a little heat from a regulator seems survivable.
-
Tiny circuit boards to make a sm prop2 easy to use
should be cheap. There are Chinese board makers
that will make up a large panel full of small designs
and cut the whole thing up for you at a really good
price. All you would need to do is solder the prop2
down and add some pins for easy connection.
Solder paste and a hot skillet should even work...just
put the prop2 on a little crooked and the instant
you see surface tension pop it into alignment
kill the heat because it's done
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- Some mornings I wake up cranky.....but usually I just let him sleep -
I can't wait to see a prop II demo board: there would be sockets for the I/O pins surrounding the breadboard....
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Quit buying all those fixed voltage regulators, and·get an Adjustable Power Supply·for your projects!· Includes an LED testing terminal!
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The DIP advantage was ease of assembly coupled with bases so projects A, B, C ... could be tried without having to tie up/ throw away Props. I only have three props and at UK prices (until recently) £40+ total on those chips was about all that was going to be put out, without evaluation boards for other platforms becoming atractive.
I really look forward to the PropII but will have to plant it onto a "DIP" carrier and use it for more than one thing.
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Style and grace : Nil point
certainly be opportunities for someone to buy them in
large lots at a good price and have them mounted on
various types of dev and carrier boards.
I suppose one of those China board plants that
offers cheap assembly of parts to the boards might
be a way to go. I guess you would have to ship them
the props? or maybe they would order them directly
after you paid for the finished boards.
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- Some mornings I wake up cranky.....but usually I just let him sleep -
Rich H
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The Servo Boss, a 12 channel servo tester kit from Gadget Gangster.
I'm not against cheap parts, or overseas manufacturing, per se... but I'd rather help a local neighbor before a distant one, IYKWIM.
- H
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But I think it would wind up being not a little bit more$
but a lot more $.
Like maybe the difference between being able to sell an 18.00 carrier board
vs a 29.00 one. If nobody competes with you at a better price you will make
the same $ selling the 29.00 one but if you sell them for 18.00 then lots
more people get to buy one. Fewer people able to buy tech gear to play
with means fewer local innovators, fewer local entrepreneurs and eventually
fewer local jobs....unintended consequences. Pay more and buy US
might hurt employment more than it appears to help. Sometimes obvious
answers that seem to be common sense solutions are not thought out well enough.
I'd like a board house located in India better than one in China.
At least they are a democracy.
There is just no way the US can hang on to low-skill jobs that pay 20+/hr
when so many other places have drastically lower wage levels.
Tariffs is an idea but that has been tried before and was disastrous...so
I see no simple solution.
We have to compete with brains, we can't compete with low wages because
you can't live in the US if you make wages that are anywhere near those
in Asia. So until desktop assemblers manufacture most items for you
in your own home we have to buy from Asia.
Nearly ever part on everything you buy was made in Asia... that would include
the parts on the controller boards we all buy....no way to change that.
Even our military gear is mostly made of Asian parts...that sure seems
risky.
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- Some mornings I wake up cranky.....but usually I just let him sleep -
Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 9/3/2009 10:12:29 PM GMT
Rich H
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The Servo Boss, a 12 channel servo tester kit from Gadget Gangster.
As for the DIP40 package of Prop 1, I doubt it will go away until they obsolete the Prop 1 which is years (decades?) out. It's just way too easy to use a DIP package for schools, development, etc. Cheap education kits using the Prop1 will not be obsoleted by the Prop2.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
WBA-TH1M Sensirion SHT11 Module
Maxim makes a dual output regulator like that, the MAX8882. I got a couple for use with an ARM chip, they work OK. It's in a tiny SOT23-6 SM package.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Russ
datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/MAX8882-MAX8883.pdf
All this talk about China reminds me of advice I was given years ago:
Heaven is...
A Chinese cook
A Japanese wife
An American salary
and an English house
Hell is...
An English cook
An American wife
A Chinese salary
And a Japanese house
Also possible would be a single universal board with 8 way (or so ) jumper sets with 0.1" header that will fit Breadboards ( and not require a crowbar to remove them ) then as many or as few pins as needed could be accessed.
Any clues as to the power consumpsion and heatsink requirement, that will set dimensions, rather than the package.
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Style and grace : Nil point
J Long
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James L
Partner/Designer
Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
Please note: Due to economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice. Thanks for your understanding.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.:
YADRO