Stamp communication - customer complaint.
vaclav_sal
Posts: 451
Ever since the software industry was born they have been raping the consumer with “there are thousands and thousands of transistors in the computer and it takes thousands and thousands and thousands lines of code to run it. We cannot possibly test every scenario, errors will happen”. The industry was clever enough not to publicly state that they rely on the consumer to find these “unpredictable” errors. They will not openly state that their engineering staff is inept to cope with their own technology.
There are plenty of sneaky ways for consumer to do the testing for free – “beta release” is the most obvious one.
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Than there are reoccurring challenges for the consumer which the supplier refuses to acknowledge. Either they are inept to solve the issue or the guy who invented it is no longer with the company, or … add you best guess here..
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The issue of communication with the Stamp keeps coming back like a bad penny.
Parallax appears to rely on this forum participants to poke at this to their best knowledge.
It seems that there is conspiracy to either milk the consumer for knowledge or keep the customer support “busy” with repetitive suggestions. (Did you check the battery??)
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It may be unfair to the fellows stamp enthusiast but I will no longer participate in this scam.
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It is time for you – Parallax· - to step up at the plate and solve this with some decent updated comprehensive (include USB, wireless, application access etc.)· documentation.
Please reply with the link to such document, do not waste my time again on this issue any·other way.
Post Edited (vaclav_sal) : 8/16/2009 5:31:17 PM GMT
There are plenty of sneaky ways for consumer to do the testing for free – “beta release” is the most obvious one.
·
Than there are reoccurring challenges for the consumer which the supplier refuses to acknowledge. Either they are inept to solve the issue or the guy who invented it is no longer with the company, or … add you best guess here..
·
The issue of communication with the Stamp keeps coming back like a bad penny.
Parallax appears to rely on this forum participants to poke at this to their best knowledge.
It seems that there is conspiracy to either milk the consumer for knowledge or keep the customer support “busy” with repetitive suggestions. (Did you check the battery??)
·
It may be unfair to the fellows stamp enthusiast but I will no longer participate in this scam.
·
It is time for you – Parallax· - to step up at the plate and solve this with some decent updated comprehensive (include USB, wireless, application access etc.)· documentation.
Please reply with the link to such document, do not waste my time again on this issue any·other way.
Post Edited (vaclav_sal) : 8/16/2009 5:31:17 PM GMT
Comments
Huh? I take it you're not a professional engineer of any kind, otherwise you would expect errors to be present in the product. Until we're all perfect, our products will match that imperfection. The modern Core2Quad processor has 582 million transistors. Have you ever worked with millions of anything? Modern operating systems have millions of lines of code. And, to top it off, these systems (processors and OS's) have billions of dollars thrown at them, while Parallax has a few hundred thousand or so.
Perhaps it's just me, but I think I understand what the problem is here. You have no idea what you want, so you don't ask right and don't get the answer that you want. What exactly are you looking for? It appears that the problem is persistent: you don't know what to ask, so you get those dull, repetitive answers (check the battery!). BTW, have you looked at other people's documentation? Much of the time, it's pretty terrible. Take a look at diydrones (store.diydrones.com/) for instance. They have some nice products, but terrible documentation. Other companies (like mouser) just give you a dense data sheet. Try programming a PIC with that!
I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of companies I know that do as well as Parallax in support and documentation. If the rest of the world were run this well, it'd be a far better place.
When you plug in a Stamp with a proper connection and power supply, it works. On the rare occasion that it does not, tech support quickly and painlessly replaces the defective part. If the problem is an improper connection (e.g., third party serial-USB connector), a simple question on the forum quickly brings the correct answer. In the case of the serial-USB issue, Parallax sells a part - quite cheaply - that works properly, and while I understand why people would try a locally-available product first, I can't imagine feeling too sympathetic towards someone who wants to complain about not having been informed in advance that product will not work (to their credit, almost all of the people who posted that question here seem to have been very satisfied to buy the Parallax adapter). I certainly see nothing there that could be referred to as a "scam", and the "issue" is already resolved: buy the Parallax Serial-USB converter.
If you're referring to the ability to program a Stamp through a wireless connection, that's only Parallax's problem if they're claiming somewhere that you can do it. I am reasonably certain they're not making that claim (correct me if I'm wrong...). There's probably a way to make a Honda Civic fly, but if Honda won't help you do so, it's not because they're conspiring against you or pulling some kind of scam.
Post Edited (sylvie369) : 8/10/2009 3:40:51 AM GMT
Parallax is not quite an "end consumer" supplier. They make recommendations for USB adapters and furnish several that are well supported and do work. Some other USB adapters do work with their products for programming, but they can't go test every one of them. A lot of them are junk.
Parallax's documentation is pretty good, especially for the educational / introductory robotics market which is a lot of their business. Could their documentation be better, sure, but it takes a long time to revise it given the limited personnel and documentation for new products to be done.
Parallax has done a lot for the Propeller by creating their "sticky" forum threads with a lot of introductory information. How many people do you suppose actually go through that information?
All that said, I suppose Parallax could invest some modest amount of time in revising their USB problems web document and generalizing it to include power issues and re-posting it with a more prominent link "Where to start when your Stamp can't be found or your Propeller won't identify itself".
The other stuff "application access", "wireless", "USB" is pretty vague and not really Parallax's responsibility to provide tutorial level documentation. These are complex topics and very dependent on specifics of the customer's situation and needs. I suspect that, when Parallax releases their WiFi interface, it will have very high quality documentation that will expect the user to either use the examples presented or do significant homework to see how to do more. The documentation will not be a tutorial on "wireless" communications nor even WiFi in general. The Easy Bluetooth adapter's documentation is similar. It expects that the user will read the manufacturer's documentation and take the time to understand it and make use of other documentation referenced.
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Shawn Lowe
When all else fails.....procrastinate!
I do hope you will consider my and everyone else's opinion, but whether you agree or not is truly your own choice. But if you want to see just what else is out there go ahead, but I'm sure you will soon wish you were dealing with Parallax again, because for the average hobbyist they are definitely much kinder.
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PG
add you best guess here..
I think it was the guy who inverted it thats at fault! I don't think he works there anymore.
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The Truth is out there············································ BoogerWoods, FL. USA
I guess my first question would be what is it about the Stamps serial communications you don't understand or you feel is "broken"?
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- Stephen
Post Edited (Franklin) : 8/9/2009 6:54:41 PM GMT
If you don't, or you want to make a custom setup, you should expect to run into problems. The framework delivered from Parallax is by far the most professional and comprehensive in the industry. Try programming a PIC or an Atmel or any RISC processor! In that world, documentation, versions, and setups are a mess, and you won't get much help from the vendors. And you can't get them to work without 3rd party components and software. I recently aquired a PIC programmer from a guy in India, which I assembled myself, and the schematics didn't even fit the PCB!
I have tried lots of stupid things with the Stamps (well, except for using them as frisbees) being a newbie to electronics. But I always got things working with a little effort on this forum. If parts are broken, Parallax will replace them. Almost all components sold from Parallax are well documented in a standard and comprehensible format. There are numerous examples on the
Internet for how to use just about any component.
I have connected Stamps serially to my PC (with RS232 TTL converter), my mobile phone, Stamp-to-Stamp, Stamp-to-Javelin, using both RF and Bluetooth.
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Don't worry. Be happy
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Gee. You think that is a BAD thing? Parallax takes advantage of the highly creative, highly eager and motivated minds that make up this forum to improve their products and produce new ones and modified ones to our great advantage. (You dismiss the·incredibly talented people that actually WORK for Parallax and·from whence the vast majority of·product ideas spring. Unfair!)·It is not a conspiracy; they do it on PURPOSE. People are very glad Parallax has such a tremendous committment to what must be a small part of their customer base, the hobbiest community.
It is true that there are those that contribute to the forum that are not hobbiests. They simply make the forum what it really is: A method to exchange information and knowledge from those who have it to those that do not and desperately want it.
It has worked well for me and others for a long time. I am sorry it did not work for you.
--Bill
[noparse][[/noparse]Edit: "hobbiest's" to "hobbiests"]
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You are what you write.
Post Edited (Bill Chennault) : 8/9/2009 11:41:40 PM GMT
Sorry you're so displeased, but it sounds like you have·deeper issues and you should probably seek·appropriate help elsewhere.·Parallax, its products, and its support (this forum includes direct input from Parallax moderators & engineers) are head & shoulders above any other product I've tried. Drop in on the lonely souls haunting the Basic Atom forum if you seek like-minded confidants. Meanwhile,·Planet Parallax will go on and you're always welcome back when you have more constructive things to say. Best,
erco
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·"If you build it, they will come."
I have the following chips laying around:
- PIC12F675-I/P
- PIC16F628A
- PIC16F57
- PIC18F45J10
- PIC18F1220
How do I start if I want to program these controllers? (some of them have more than 20 pins so I cant use the Starter Kit).
If you can give me a straightforward answer, I'll take back my remarks.
And what if I want to program 16 and 32 bit controllers?
With Stamps I got up and running in a few hours.
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Don't worry. Be happy
and some things"my prop stick" didn't work immediately and it was suggested that I should check battery, cable, what I felt was stupid stuff but to be honest the truth is I bet they(Parallax) have more problems with their products that turn out to be
Battery, Cable, mis-configured software stupid stuff than anything else. Gee have you ever had to call Dell Tech support !!!!!! I have been buying computers from them for over 8 years and ran the Dell IT account for NASDAQ talk about frustrating
imagine being told to check to make sure your computer is powered up, did you turn on the monitor ,, blah blah we only spent around 11 million dollars a year with this company. I think Parallax does a very good job maybe not perfect
but Mike and the others are always here and try to answer and help everyone and I will even give you the fact that sometimes I think Mike is being short with me when he says "read the manual" but I imagine he and the others get asked the same questions day in and day out
the same exact thing , I think this Forum was an ingenious idea and keeps me coming back to buy Parallax products Knowing if I can not resolve my issue with Parallax Tech then someone here is always ready to try, its a great little community
Just look at what the other companies are doing PIC,S, FreeScale they all have there support Forums one could argue imitating Parallax but nothing even close to the level of help you get here just my 002 cents.
Most every time I find myself feeling in any way frustrated, if I really examine it - the frustration is with my own inability to grasp something, or my own inability to properly figure out how to describe what it is that I need, and therefore I find that I cannot get the help I need. This happens very rarely, and usually only when I am trying to do something involving components from multiple vendors that were probably never intended to meet. Nonetheless, patience, persistence, and civility have always prevailed, allowing me to do things with stamps and other hardware that I was told could not be done. This could only be done by recognizing that any "issues" I was having were my problem, not that of the component manufacturer. Concluding that the problem is someone else's would have left me feeling that there was no further I could have gone, and I would have failed to accomplish my own goals, never realizing how close I may have actually been had I persisted.
Leaving this forum may or may not be of any consequence to anyone here, but it will most certainly be a loss for you, whether you allow yourself to recognize that or not.
Dave
Most every time I find myself feeling in any way frustrated, if I really examine it - the frustration is with my own inability to grasp something, or my own inability to properly figure out how to describe what it is that I need, and therefore I find that I cannot get the help I need.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I find this to be very true and could not been said any better· ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
·This happens very rarely, and usually only when I am trying to do something involving components from multiple vendors that were probably never intended to meet.
·Nonetheless, patience, persistence,·>>>>> So very true >>>>> and civility have always prevailed,
·allowing me to do things with stamps and other hardware that I was told could not be done. This could only be done by recognizing that any "issues" I was having were my problem, not that of the component manufacturer.
Concluding that the problem is someone else's would have left me feeling that there was no further I could have gone, and I would have failed to accomplish my own goals, never realizing how close I may have actually been had I persisted.
No or it Can Not Be Done is not is not alway a good answer or a good way to look at something you want to do
Thank You for sharing your thoughts··
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··Thanks for any·
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Sam
For those forum participants that are involved with customer service in your day jobs, you probably recognize Vaclav's frustration being a combination of thin documentation on the subject and the myriad of suggestions by various people wanting to help. In the end, a wall is hit and a customer is lost.
I'm sensitive to Vaclav's frustration as, for the last few months, I've been struggling to create a communication link between a PC and Stamp using Visual Basic 2005. If it hadn't been for the tremendous help from Unsoundcode (Jeff T.), I may have been a "lost customer". Setting up serial communication is not trivial. And yes, I've read through all the articles on the Parallax site - but they seem to be written by those too close to the subject; meaning, too many assumptions are made of the reader resulting in overly complex code samples or non-related focus.
One area that could have helped my efforts would have been clear, concise, documented, working code examples written in C++ and VB. Granted, it would be asking too much of Parallax to provide examples in all programming languages, but, it would appear that VB and C++ are heavily used by the customer base (noted by reading the forums threads over the last year).
In Parallax's favor, they have been extremely supportive when I've asked questions directly to the apps group...and I even had one call me at home to see if I understood his code example and how the effort was prodeeding (thank you again Mr. Martin). Who does THAT anymore?! However, at some point, an organization will have to make the decision to finally nail down the documentation to reduce and/or eliminate the same repeated questions that steal precious resources. Then, the answer to a customer's question about creating serial communication would be "here's the link to the doc".
Anyway - that's my take on it.
BTW - in the attitude of "Freely you have received, freely give", I'll be adding an example of VB2005 code to the user maintained FAQs that will auto-detect the COM port to which a Stamp is attached. I need to annotate and pretty print first.
Regards,
DJ
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Instead of:
"Those who can, do.· Those who can't, teach." (Shaw)
I prefer:
"Those who know, do.· Those who understand, teach." (Aristotle)
·
Just use a PICkit 2 or an ICD 2 or 3. You will have to buy or make a suitable board, of course. I just make a PCB at home for any chip I want to try out, it only takes me an hour or so in total. There is a very low-cost starter board you can buy for the PIC32.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (Leon) : 8/10/2009 6:44:52 AM GMT
Right.
Right.
I think I've made my point.
This is a thread started by a newbie. When I started with electronics, I didn't even know what a PCB was, little less how in the world to build a "suitable" board, whatever that is.
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Don't worry. Be happy
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
No you don't. You can build this one:
Which is excactly what I did. I bought the PCB from the Indian guy products.foxdelta.com/progserial.htm.
Then I found that the PIC located on the programmer needs a special firmware which you can't download without a programmer! So you need a programmer to build a programmer...
So I ordered a pre-programmed 16F628A from the same guy.
Then I find that Oshonsofts downloader doesn't support all chips (but a lot of them), so I will have to make chip code files for the unsupported chips.
The Parallax starter kits are a breeze compared to this procedure.
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Don't worry. Be happy
Why didn't you buy one of the Microchip PICkits? That will debug and program nearly all their chips via the MPLAB IDE. Microchip also makes development boards that include a programmer/debugger. They provide excellent support for their products.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (Leon) : 8/10/2009 11:38:58 AM GMT
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Don't worry. Be happy
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
Post Edited (Leon) : 8/10/2009 3:12:33 PM GMT
BTY just an FYI............................ There is NO such thing as PERFICT! Sorry Charlie, isn't possable at anypoint in time, by ANYONE! There will ALWAYS be problems of SOME kind, SOME how, at SOME time. If perfict WAS possable, 2 USA Space Shuttles filled with people would have been lost or by now ALL of our vehicals would NEVER have a problem of anykind since there's about 100 years of work since they was invented or there'd be NO MEDICAL side effects or complications of anykind, considering 5,000 years ago an anchient Egptian known as Imhotep started medical procedures, & if in 5,000 years medical isn't perfict, that Microcontroller problem don't have a snowballs chance of exhisting in the center of the sun. My appologies to the Forum Mods & Admin if I seamed alittle overboard. Not intended!
Joe
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I'm going insaine. It's SOOOOOO much fun. lol
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"If only I could do what I think, then it would be done and I can do the other things I haven't thought."
Joe
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I'm going insaine. It's SOOOOOO much fun. lol
Exactly my point.
Joe
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I'm going insaine. It's SOOOOOO much fun. lol