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Propeller Powered UNIX - BSD, Linux or Other — Parallax Forums

Propeller Powered UNIX - BSD, Linux or Other

he1957he1957 Posts: 58
edited 2009-08-07 04:01 in Propeller 1
Excuse if I missed a previous or existing post for this Subject:

Is there, or does anyone know of an "Embedded·UNIX on Propeller" project or distribution?· I've·read about·a Linux for other microcontrollers but thought UNIX on a multi-processor like Propeller would be more than way cool ;-)

Pointers or any other information would be great!


Thanks and regards,

HarryE.
·

Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-08-06 14:05
    It could be implemented using external memory, but it would be so slow that it would be unusable.

    Leon

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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-08-06 14:09
    This idea comes up from time to time. It's not really practical.

    Linux requires a lot more memory, a memory manager (paging), interrupts...all of which could be bolted onto the Prop externally but the result would be an amazingly slow Linux/Unix. It's just not worth it.

    Linux is very dependent on some features of GCC to compile it so getting GCC to generate Prop LMM code is a major undertaking just to get started.

    However work is progressing on the Propeller operating systems front. Look out for Largos for example.

    I can do you a nice CP/M [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    edited 2009-08-06 14:15
    While 8 processors with 20 MIPS each sound great, the small memory, lack of stack and limited external memory support (you have to bit-bang it) really bring the performance down. While there are possibilities to overcome these issues all of them downgrade the speed, so you end up with some 1 or 2 MIPS processor when multicore had to be sacrificed.

    If you get hold of some limited (reduced) version of UNIX it may be ported as soon as it does not need that much memory to run.

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  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-08-06 15:06
    One of my long term goals is One Man Unix (OMU) on the Propeller. tallyho.bc.nu/~steve/omu.html
    It's written in C so nothing a TriBladePop board and Catalina can't handle.

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  • he1957he1957 Posts: 58
    edited 2009-08-06 15:22
    Hummm,

    I suppose a limitation is the "overlayed" 'architecture' of UNIX in general.· An NSLU2 - aka "slug" running a UNIX flavour is akin to what was in mind.· This behaves quite well although it does (generally) require a hard disk to provide any serious environment to play with.· What was more in mind with a Propeller and UNIX was the SMP possibilities, not the multi-user aspect.

    Next question will probably be along the lines of a HardDisk Interface and the Propeller (speed is not the objective); after the question of interfacing a Parallax USB Oscilloscope with a Demo (or other) Parallax board...

    Thanks for the·replys,

    HarryE.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-08-06 15:48
    Currently the best bet is SD and SDHC cards - the guys have been doing some amazing work and transfer rates are up over 1Mbyte/sec through the file system now!
    he1957 said...
    Hummm,

    I suppose a limitation is the "overlayed" 'architecture' of UNIX in general. An NSLU2 - aka "slug" running a UNIX flavour is akin to what was in mind. This behaves quite well although it does (generally) require a hard disk to provide any serious environment to play with. What was more in mind with a Propeller and UNIX was the SMP possibilities, not the multi-user aspect.

    Next question will probably be along the lines of a HardDisk Interface and the Propeller (speed is not the objective); after the question of interfacing a Parallax USB Oscilloscope with a Demo (or other) Parallax board...

    Thanks for the replys,

    HarryE.
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    Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
    Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
    www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
  • Aaron193Aaron193 Posts: 27
    edited 2009-08-06 15:51
    Thanks. I recently posted something like this and got little feedback. I currently am attempting to make a UNIX knock-off using two Propellers. I would like to know of any progress that is being done on this front.

    For whomever is interested, I have code for one Propeller with 5 built-in commands. I plan on changing this once I get a hold of an SD card reader and a second Propeller Microcontroller. Requires TV_TEXT and KEYBOARD.

    Aaron.

    Post Edited (Aaron193) : 8/6/2009 4:04:10 PM GMT
    spin
    spin
    PropUNIX.spin
    4K
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-08-06 15:56
    Well, my Morpheus (dual Propeller, lots of memory, flash, rtc and more) was designed to be a full function single board computer and run my upcoming Largos smile.gif however I don't expect any public Largos previews for a few months.

    (links in my signature)
    Aaron193 said...
    Thanks. I recently posted something like this and got little feedback. I currently am attempting to make a UNIX knock-off using two Propellers. I would like to know of any progress that is being done on this front. Thanks, again.

    Aaron.
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    Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
    Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
    www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
  • trodosstrodoss Posts: 577
    edited 2009-08-06 16:31
    @Aaron193
    The "Mini OS" that is part of the Sphinx Compiler might be of use to you:
    http://www.sphinxcompiler.com/

    If you haven't already looked at the code you might want to do so.

    I would think OMU (or a OMU look alike) should at least be possible, and I would not doubt that heater could get it implemented with/without Motorola 6809 emulation.
  • he1957he1957 Posts: 58
    edited 2009-08-06 16:37
    Aaron and Bill,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Bill, I have seen (some of) your posts and visited your website with much interest in Morpheus - a stacked multi-processor - multi-processor with extended I/O - awesome!

    In a more simple application, consideration as applied to:

    cog0 = "'brains' and/or task scheduler" - the 'boot CPU'; dispatch a 'task' to cog[noparse][[/noparse]1,4..7]

    cog1 = "interrupt processor" - somewhat obvious; use packet or serial coms on cog[noparse][[/noparse]2.3]

    cog2 = reserved - probably Human or external I/O initiation

    cog3 = reserved - ditto

    cog4-7 = workhorses

    Not yet sure.· Comments welcome...



    Thanks

    HarryE.
  • Aaron193Aaron193 Posts: 27
    edited 2009-08-06 16:51
    @trodoss--

    Sphinx Compiler looks interesting; is there any C or C++ Compiler like Sphinx that you are aware of? (This question is also open to anyone who knows of one)
  • he1957he1957 Posts: 58
    edited 2009-08-06 16:55
    Heater,

    Huummm, CP/M... nahhh - thanks!; I still have an old "Bondwell 14" [noparse][[/noparse]cp/m based] and "Exidy Sorcerer" [noparse][[/noparse]way ahead of its time];·the Bondwell·has a noisy power supply fan which will be replaced - eventually!

    Even found an old Signetics 2650 chip in·the junkbox a few days ago while looking for chips suitable for the Propeller... [noparse][[/noparse]ouch!]· Hope·to find·an older SC/MP chip and a few older remnants to remind of a more esoteric and developmental/experimental time.

    Presume·mention of the vacuum tube devices is a NoNo...

    ;-)
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-08-06 17:13
    What about multi used CP/M, M/PM coming soon[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Anyway I think next up for me is FLEX for the 6809 emulation on a Prop. Yes, I know, I'm crazy.

    I'm still looking for that project idea that would be the perfect marriage of the propeller and a vacuum tube or two. Then my retro world would be complete.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    For me, the past is not over yet.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-08-06 17:22
    Hi he1957,

    Your allocation seems reasonable, but for 2-7 I would allocate dynamically according to need [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Bill
    he1957 said...
    Aaron and Bill,

    Thanks for the feedback.

    Bill, I have seen (some of) your posts and visited your website with much interest in Morpheus - a stacked multi-processor - multi-processor with extended I/O - awesome!

    In a more simple application, consideration as applied to:

    cog0 = "'brains' and/or task scheduler" - the 'boot CPU'; dispatch a 'task' to cog[noparse][[/noparse]1,4..7]

    cog1 = "interrupt processor" - somewhat obvious; use packet or serial coms on cog[noparse][[/noparse]2.3]

    cog2 = reserved - probably Human or external I/O initiation

    cog3 = reserved - ditto

    cog4-7 = workhorses

    Not yet sure. Comments welcome...



    Thanks

    HarryE.
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
    Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
    www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-08-06 17:23
    Tube radio with VGA display for tuning etc [noparse]:)[/noparse]
    heater said...
    What about multi used CP/M, M/PM coming soon[noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Anyway I think next up for me is FLEX for the 6809 emulation on a Prop. Yes, I know, I'm crazy.

    I'm still looking for that project idea that would be the perfect marriage of the propeller and a vacuum tube or two. Then my retro world would be complete.
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
    Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
    www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-08-06 17:33
    Bill, excellent idea.

    Trouble is a couple of years ago I had the urge to knock up a simple transistor AM radio like I did back in 1970 something. (Well I used a tubes then). For a long time I thought it did not work. Turns out there is almost nothing on AM around here (Helsinki) any more. Not sure I'm up to going FM.

    We should not forget Dr Jim's KISS OS - A new operating system for the Parallax Propeller http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=822915

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    For me, the past is not over yet.

    Post Edited (heater) : 8/7/2009 5:40:17 AM GMT
  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,255
    edited 2009-08-07 02:48
    FWIW: The first unix box I used was a diskless Sun 3/75 with 4MB ram 16.67Mhz 68020 processor.
    It was only rated at 2MIPS! It did have a 68881 floating point unit though.

    It's display was impressive to me at 1152*900 b/w (framebuffer fit in 128KB)

    Even though external memory is slow because it has to be bit-banged, it would still provide for more than 2MIPS!
    I don't know what the 3/75 memory performance was, but I would suspect that bills morpheous at 20MB/sec is a in the ballpark.

    Because it was diskless on a 10base2 network, it's filesystem speed was much less than 1MB/sec even at night when I had the wire to myself.
    Swapping over net was aweful!

    I, a long time UNIX geek, would love to see this.

    Just my 10 bits worth,
    Doug
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-08-07 04:01
    Hi Doug,

        3/75
        Processor(s):   68020 @ 16.67MHz, 68881, Sun-3 MMU, 8 hardware
                        contexts, 2 MIPS
        CPU:            501-1163/1164 (1074/1094 ?)
        Chassis type:   wide pizza box
        Bus:            VME, 2 slot
        Memory:         16M physical (documented), 256M virtual, 270ns cycle
        Notes:          Optional SCSI sits on memory expansion board in
                        second slot.



    (from the Sun Hardware FAQ at http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~alanb/faq/Sun-Hardware.faq)

    (software emulation of a Sun 3 on a pc: http://www.ilvsun3.com/ )

    270ns memory cycle is 3.7 accesses per microsecond; assuming it had a 32 bit memory bus (unknown at this time) that would make it 14.8MB/sec

    So burst reads on Morpheus are 35% faster [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Each cog is also roughly 10x faster for integer code when running PASM, so its fair to say that for integer code, Morpheus would beat up on a Sun 3/75 pretty badly.

    Mind you, the 68881 FPU may eat cogs for breakfast. Maybe.

    I can't wait to finish the docs and get back to drivers and Largos...

    Bill
    hinv said...
    FWIW: The first unix box I used was a diskless Sun 3/75 with 4MB ram 16.67Mhz 68020 processor.
    It was only rated at 2MIPS! It did have a 68881 floating point unit though.

    It's display was impressive to me at 1152*900 b/w (framebuffer fit in 128KB)

    Even though external memory is slow because it has to be bit-banged, it would still provide for more than 2MIPS!
    I don't know what the 3/75 memory performance was, but I would suspect that bills morpheous at 20MB/sec is a in the ballpark.

    Because it was diskless on a 10base2 network, it's filesystem speed was much less than 1MB/sec even at night when I had the wire to myself.
    Swapping over net was aweful!

    I, a long time UNIX geek, would love to see this.

    Just my 10 bits worth,
    Doug
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
    Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
    www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
    Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller

    Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 8/7/2009 4:10:12 AM GMT
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