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pre-UPEW 2009 announcement: H49S 6.25MHz crystals - runs Propeller at 100Mhz — Parallax Forums

pre-UPEW 2009 announcement: H49S 6.25MHz crystals - runs Propeller at 100Mhz

Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
edited 2009-06-03 14:46 in Propeller 1
Hi,

Since the 6.25MHz thread has been active, I thought I should announce one of my upcoming products that I was going to announce at UPEW 2009.

I really liked the idea of running my Propellers at 100MHz, so I have placed a large order for custom manufactured 6.25Mhz crystals. I will be selling them through my web store (which is in the process of being set up) - the prices will be reasonable, just a bit higher than 5MHz crystals at the Parallax store. I will be able supply as few or as many as you may need.

Best Regards,

Bill

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Largos - a nano operating system for the Propeller
www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers

Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 6/1/2009 6:28:00 PM GMT

Comments

  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2009-06-01 07:04
    Nice move Bill smile.gif

    I would like to hear from Chip about his thoughts for 100MHz operation.

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
    · Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-06-01 07:31
    As with any operation of a device outside its specifications it might be OK for a hobbyist application, but no-one in their right mind is going to use it for something that is going into production.

    Leon

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    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
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  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,829
    edited 2009-06-01 13:37
    Leon: What do you mean? The datasheet shows specifications for operation at 100 MHz. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 6.25 MHz crystal in a production design.

    Actually, hobbyists applications are where I wouldn't use it. To many people would be tripped up by the need to change the crystal frequency in the codes...

    Besides, in the Parallax boards, the crystal just pops out.· One could just copy that hardware to make the crystal changeable.

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-06-01 13:37
    Hi,

    A couple of years ago, before the data sheet, Chip posted that Propeller chips are tested at room temperature at 104MHz (6.5MHz * 16) - see http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=620404.

    The Propeller data sheet (v1.2) has a "Fastest Frequency vs. Temperature chart " that indicates that Propellers will run at 100MHz in with the ambient temperature being as high as 75'C - which is the top end of the normal "commercial temperature range".

    Would I run "life support" equipment on a 100MHz Prop? No, but neither would I on an 80MHz prop, without extensive testing... which could also be used to "qualify" 100MHz parts.

    Based on the data sheets, not to mention people's successes running even faster, I think 100MHz is a great clock speed smile.gif

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Largos - a nano operating system for the Propeller
    www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,829
    edited 2009-06-01 13:43
    I actually have plans to use 6.25 MHz crystals for a digital scope so that I can get 100 MSPS...

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-06-01 13:59
    The data sheet shows 80 MHz as the maximum frequency in the AC Characteristics! I don't think that it has been properly characterized at 100 MHz. Perhaps Parallax will clarify this.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 6/1/2009 2:04:33 PM GMT
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,829
    edited 2009-06-01 14:22
    Yes, it says 80 MHz max. But, that's up to temperatures of 125 C. I don't think too many of us are getting that hot!

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-06-01 14:24
    Hi Leon,

    The "AC Characteristics" in the data sheet show that they are for the milspec temperature range of -55'C to +125'C, however the "Fastest Frequency vs. Temperature chart " shows that it will operate at 100MHz at up to +75'C.

    A few years ago I designed a small microcontroller based remote I/O node that had to run at 125'C, and it worked well, however the vast majority of applications run well below even 75'C.
    Leon said...
    The data sheet shows 80 MHz as the maximum frequency in the AC Characteristics! I don't think that it has been properly characterized at 100 MHz. Perhaps Parallax will clarify this.

    Leon
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Largos - a nano operating system for the Propeller
    www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-06-01 14:55
    It's not been characterized at 100 MHz, though, unless I've missed something. 125C is the top of the extended industrial temperature range. That is unusual for a standard MCU, most only go up to 85C and special versions are required for 125C.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 6/1/2009 3:33:31 PM GMT
  • Cole LoganCole Logan Posts: 196
    edited 2009-06-01 15:48
    Here is a Video of parallax testing the Prop at 190c. Its going just fine. The rest of the hardware around is having a tough time but the prop is working just like it is supposed to.

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  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2009-06-01 18:01
    Hi Bill Henning.

    Just in time I run 2 Propellers with 15MHz PLLx8 in my tests.
    One on Clusos Triblade (Blade1) and one on ProtoBoard with USB in one month and not any heat from Propeler at al.
    It runs very stable. But it is important to have last one 4,7-10 uF capacitor near Propeler on crystal side and parallel with one smal ceramic capasitor.
    Smal capacitor is for block high frequensies to and from Propeler and 4,7-10 uF is for Voltage stablity with times Propeller consume momentary more power.
    Most heat Propeller produce with not stable square wave on its crystal driver.
    And PLLx8 wil (one divider stage) recondition square wave on driver for rest of Propeller logic.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it·as simple as·possible yet as versatile as posible.


    Sapieha
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-06-01 18:24
    Hi Saphieha,

    That's great! Wow... 120MHz... I'll have to try that.

    It really shows what a great job Parallax did on the Propeller - no wonder the chart shows that the Propeller will run at up to 100MHz at 75'C.

    Hmm... I wonder what the Propeller could do if one stuck a big peltier element on it (and ofcourse a BIG heatsink/fan on the peltier) and ran it at 5V...

    Best Regards,

    Bill
    Sapieha said...
    Hi Bill Henning.

    Just in time I run 2 Propellers with 15MHz PLLx8 in my tests.
    One on Clusos Triblade (Blade1) and one on ProtoBoard with USB in one month and not any heat from Propeler at al.
    It runs very stable. But it is important to have last one 4,7-10 uF capacitor near Propeler on crystal side and parallel with one smal ceramic capasitor.
    Smal capacitor is for block high frequensies to and from Propeler and 4,7-10 uF is for Voltage stablity with times Propeller consume momentary more power.
    Most heat Propeller produce with not stable square wave on its crystal driver.
    And PLLx8 wil (one divider stage) recondition square wave on driver for rest of Propeller logic.
    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Largos - a nano operating system for the Propeller
    www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2009-06-01 18:28
    Now that's a very temping experiment..

    OBC

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  • Toby SeckshundToby Seckshund Posts: 2,027
    edited 2009-06-01 19:18
    I suspect that the props are far, far more capable than quoted but for the sake of no comebacks the 80MHz is well within its comfort zone. Just as with any form of overclocking, it's on your own head. I wouldn't be surprised if there are gentle chuckling, back at head office, thinking "yeah,so what" when somebody gets one to fly along at 120MHz+++++
  • BADHABITBADHABIT Posts: 138
    edited 2009-06-02 04:30
    After watching that video I wouldn't be surprised if could do even more than that.
    Maybe at You Pee Ewe a table could be set up to experiment with OC. 80 mhz hah!
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2009-06-02 04:51
    Sitting here with Chip. He's been quiet on the forums lately as you have probably noticed. This is normal for him - he gets crazed about a specific project and works on it until it's done. Nothing else gets accomplished during such projects, such as visiting the forums.

    Regarding Bill's question, Chip says "It would probably work just fine - I think we tested at a bit above 100 MHz".

    Nothing wrong with experimentation, and I'm not concerned about RMAs or the fact that it's out of specification from the datasheet. Our customers have produced lots of valuable information about our products, such as Tracy Allen's BASIC Stamp characterizations. You guys have fun.

    We could offer those for sale from our web site, Bill. Contact me offline kgracey@parallax.com with some pricing information. Sounds like a nice hotrod upgrade.

    Ken Gracey
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2009-06-02 06:45
    Wow that's great info Ken smile.gif

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    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
    · Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-06-02 08:09
    @Ken:

    Has the Propeller actually been characterized for 100 MHz operation and for a crystal > 8 MHz with the PLL? I've been taken to task for suggesting that running it outside the specification parameters is a bad idea, although it might be acceptable for a hobbyist application.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 6/2/2009 8:16:27 AM GMT
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2009-06-02 14:04
    @Leon: no, it has not been characterized for 100 MHz operation and for a crystal > 8 MHz with PLL. Perhaps it could have been characterized with this configuration, but it has not been. As such, we make no claims as the the functionality or reliability. We don't know how it would behave.

    Ken Gracey
    Parallax, Inc.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-06-02 14:34
    Thanks, Ken. The graphs in the data sheet showing 100 MHz operation seem to be confusing some people, though.

    Leon

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle

    Post Edited (Leon) : 6/2/2009 2:43:09 PM GMT
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2009-06-02 15:05
    see this thread for more information...
    Design rules for stable propeller operation and overclocking
    http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=356308

    For non-commercial, 100MHz here we come... smile.gif

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Links to other interesting threads:

    · Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
    · Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
    · Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
    · Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
    · Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
    My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2009-06-02 18:26
    Posted in wrong thread. Moved to here: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=812220

    Post Edited (SRLM) : 6/2/2009 8:14:07 PM GMT
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2009-06-03 14:46
    I've added a page on the crystals at my site.

    I should be receiving the first shipment around June 15th smile.gif

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Largos - a nano operating system for the Propeller
    www.mikronauts.com - a new blog about microcontrollers
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