Torpedo LifeGuard

Nu World Network

I have been researching torpedoes and submersibles recently for a school project. I am also a fan of the television show "Deadliest Catch," which depicts crab fisherman on the Bering Sea. It seems every year that at least one ship sinks. This got me thinking: What if you had a torpedo that shot out to the sinking boat carrying lifesaving equipment. This would be a temporary lifesaving device until the Coast Guard could mobilize and reach the fishermen. The ship could also be used for capsizing boats elsewhere.
A few weeks ago, I began researching propulsion technology for this. I need help with a few problems that I can not seem to find the answers to:

-Would the GPS system work underwater? (10-50ft)
-Would it be possible to transmit a GPS signal at least 10-20 miles?

That is it for the time being. I may have some questions in the future about smaller issues. Thank you in advance for your answers.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Nu World Network said...
What if you had a torpedo that shot out to the sinking boat carrying lifesaving equipment.

Or better yet, self-attaching, self-inflating flotation bags!

GPS does not work underwater; but a tethered, floating antenna might work, if it didn't create too much drag. GPS signals are transmitted directly by satellite, so there's no need for a repeater — even out at sea.

-Phil

kwinn

GPS signals will not penetrate water very far. Maybe 10 feet but I doubt it. You are not allowed to transmit a GPS signal. That would interfere with the satellite signals and possibly affect navigation. If you mean transmit an emergency signal with the GPS location included, I beleive that is OK. A 10 - 20 mile range is possible.

Nu World Network

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) said...

Nu World Network said...
What if you had a torpedo that shot out to the sinking boat carrying lifesaving equipment.

Or better yet, self-attaching, self-inflating flotation bags!

I'm sorry, was that sarcasm? I couldn't tell.

Nu World Network

kwinn said...
GPS signals will not penetrate water very far. Maybe 10 feet but I doubt it. You are not allowed to transmit a GPS signal. That would interfere with the satellite signals and possibly affect navigation. If you mean transmit an emergency signal with the GPS location included, I beleive that is OK. A 10 - 20 mile range is possible.

Yes, I did mean transmit an emergency signal. I guess I didn't make myself clear. Thank you for your reply.

P!-Ro

"Would the GPS system work underwater? (10-50ft)"

Doubt it, if it's like any other RF system, but you can just try it out yourself. Sometimes, the best way to figure things out is to just experiment on your own.

"Would it be possible to transmit a GPS signal at least 10-20 miles?"

You should as long as you have a satellite in view. If you meant RF, there are walkie-talkies capable of transmitting upwards of 25 miles. Not underwater, though. Just the expensive ones they use for submarines can. You might be able to extend the antenna above the torpedo, though, so it can transmit by air.

Edit: Wow people post fast. Maybe I should·think faster. Oh well, at least you got to here some of the some stuff from 2 people : )

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Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Nu World Network said...
I'm sorry, was that sarcasm? I couldn't tell.

Farfetched, perhaps; sarcastic, no. In fact, flotation bags are used to refloat sunken ships for salvage. If some way could be devised to attach and deploy them before a sinking, so much the better!

-Phil

P!-Ro

One other possibility is to rig an oxi-acetylene welder to it and a robotic arm to fix the damage. It might be a little difficult, though.

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PG

SRLM

Phil said...
Farfetched, perhaps; sarcastic, no. In fact, flotation bags are used to refloat sunken ships for salvage. If some way could be devised to attach and deploy them before a sinking, so much the better!

Pre-Sinking-Salvage! A new industry! Charge the captains for the loss before they lose it!

As for the transmitters, assuming that you don't mean on the GPS frequencies, then there are lots of options. Specifically, the 400 and 900 MHz areas are unlicensed and you can buy modules (Digi Xtends might work, I've never tried them but they're rated for 40 mi LOS).

Duffer

The fishing boats in the crab fishing fleet use these EPIRB beacons that are activated automatically if submerged, as would be the case of the ship going down or capsizing. They're usually mounted on one of the radio or radar masts, well above the deck and wheelhouse.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/epirb.html

Most are also equipped with at least one life raft that inflates when it's deployed over the side and all crew members must have, and know how to use, survival/emersion suits. The problem is that the crew doesn't always have the time to put on their survival suits and get the raft(s) in the water before the ship goes down or capsizes. That's why they call it the deadliest job.

Duffer

Post Edited (Duffer) : 5/14/2009 3:01:53 PM GMT

Nu World Network

Well, the sinking crab boats just gave me the idea. Those ships can be over a hundred miles off the coast when they fish. I was thinking more about ships that sink closer to the shore.

Another use for the device is that it might be able to pull a small boat to the shore if it breaks down in a river. However, strong motors might be needed for that.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I know from my own experience, having spent a summer on a salmon troller in SE Alaska, that bad things can happen very quickly. We normally fished the 20-fathom line (close to shore) with about 30-40 other boats. Another, somewhat smaller group would fish the 40-fathom line further offshore and were visible from where we fished. One day, when the weather was a little brisk (not stormy), a boat in the 40-fathom fleet went down. They barely had a chance to send an SOS on channel 16. By the time anyone in the fleet could react, the boat and all hands were lost. It was more common for boats to sink very close to shore by hitting a rock or a deadhead. Alcohol or lack of sleep were responsible for for more than one sinking when I was up there. It was not uncommon for a captain and crew heading out to sea to put the boat on autopilot and catch some sleep until they got to their destination. Fortunately for me, I worked for a captain who was sane, sober, and owned a sound boat. But even then, there were some close calls.

-Phil

Bean

Phil,
I agree that a sane, sober, alert and well rested captain and crew would prevent many more deaths than ANY safty device.

Bean.

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There is a fine line between arrogance and confidence. Make sure you don't cross it...

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mctrivia

for the transmitter why not take apart a spot unit works almost anyware in the world and already has the ability to call athorities to your location. I keep one on me when hiking and long trips. Is extremely accurate and fairly inexpensive. All you need to be able to do is triger the 911 button.

Probably beyond your abilities but torpedo have now been developed to travel at supersonic speeds. mach 10 is possible by enveloping the torpedo in a small pocket of air.

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My new unsecure propmod both 1x1 and full size arriving soon.

Post Edited (mctrivia) : 5/15/2009 5:35:45 AM GMT

Nu World Network

AJ-9000 said...

I like the torpedo life guard concept so in a survival storm or when a helicopter or anything else couldn't get to the location of the boat in distress in a timely way a fast autonomous submersible could.

Although I would suggest instead of it deploying a life raft when it got to the location that it deploy a small Zodiac that would tow a life ring behind it and actively try to find the person or persons overboard. What I mean by "find the person" is when a person becomes separated from the boat a transmitter that he always wears starts transmitting his GPS coordinates that the Zodiac uses to get close enough to him so he could grab on to the tow rope. When the GPS coordinates are trailing the Zodiac this autonomous boat would then stop and wait for the person climb aboard.

That could work. I am unsure of how big the torpedo would have to be to carry an inflatable boat. What would be really nice is if when the boat inflates, the torpedo is still attached and is able to propel and steer the boat.

However, I don't know whether the person should be able to get on. Propelling a boat with people on it would be much harder than propelling one with people in life jackets hooked up to tow lines.

Searider

This is a little different from the original idea, but what about using it to augment a beach lifeguard. If someone was in trouble, you could dispatch the "torpedo" to the sceene. Perhaps faster than a swimer could get there. you would also not endanger another person. It could be RC controlled, Autonimous, or possibly seak a laser dot that is aimed from shore.

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Searider

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Nu World Network

The power of the motor is one of the main concerns I have. It may be possible to modify a trolley motor, but speed might become an issue. This would need to be a quick response system, or it would be useless.

Nu World Network

Okay. I have been looking into trolling motors and believe that those may suffice for a prototype. I think I will go with AJ-900's advice and include an autonomous inflatable raft as well.

The part that worries me is navigation. Originally, I had envisioned using a GPS unit to navigate to the sinking ship, and using some sort of pre-made digital map that would be used to make a path that avoided land. However, I probably still need sensors that could detect stumps, weeds, and other obstacles. I have searched and haven't found anything that is within my budget for a prototype.

SRLM

Bump sensors would probably be the most economical and reliable.

Robert Kubichek

Have you thought of the horizontal sensing fish finders using lcd screens?
They do give indication of mass of object, and would also tell you how far off bearing the mass is located, by using sensors on attached to the screen.

Nu World Network

Maybe, but navigating with bump sensors is (literally) hit-or-miss.

Nu World Network

Robert Kubichek said...
Have you thought of the horizontal sensing fish finders using lcd screens?
They do give indication of mass of object, and would also tell you how far off bearing the mass is located, by using sensors on attached to the screen.

That could be used for the prototype.


Here is a quick sketch of the basic torpedo so far. I'll post some detailed CAD files soon.



Post Edited (Nu World Network) : 5/16/2009 7:35:37 PM GMT

Searider

what is the need to make it a torpedo (i.e. fully under the surface). Why not make it a small enclosed surface boat?· If it had a low profile, it would not pick up much wind drag and this would simplifly the GPS antenna and probably a few other design constraints.

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mctrivia

wind drag is actually a lot less then that of water. This is why speed boats push there nose out of the water to reduce drag as much as possible. This project would be easier if you kept the entire ship above water.

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My new unsecure propmod both 1x1 and full size arriving soon.

Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.

Nu World Network

mctrivia said...
wind drag is actually a lot less then that of water. This is why speed boats push there nose out of the water to reduce drag as much as possible. This project would be easier if you kept the entire ship above water.

A boat might be a better idea. However, a torpedo could avoid debris and weather while it travels to the sinking boat.

mctrivia

there is debri under the water as much as above. If you make the boat in a triangle shape with no opening on the top(except a hatch with life saving equipment) then debri will push aside and weather will not bother it any more then water currents under the water.

I would make the hatch self ejecting though so people do not have to get to the boat to release it. 2 simple ejection systems is a spring loaded cover held in place by electromagnets, solinoids, or exploding bults. down side is cover is 1 time use only as you will not likely find afterwards and it may hit someone. another option is having a large linear actuator that pulls the cover inside the boat.

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My new unsecure propmod both 1x1 and full size arriving soon.

Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.