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NEEDED: Propeller Expert Partner for new product idea ... — Parallax Forums

NEEDED: Propeller Expert Partner for new product idea ...

wperkowperko Posts: 66
edited 2009-05-15 03:15 in Propeller 1
Hi,

Once again the forums prove to be full of morons and fantasy rather than help.

Post Edited (wperko) : 5/13/2009 7:22:09 PM GMT

Comments

  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-05-13 15:04
    You probably aren't going to attract much interest with the non-disclosure/non-compete approach. Any professional engineer would be foolish to sign such a thing, since it ties one's hands for future work.

    -Phil
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-05-13 16:08
    wperko said...
    ...Hence the last 10 years I've not needed a job!
    Nor have I. When presented with an NDNC agreement, I always refuse. I also never cede ownership of my work to a client but offer non-exclusive licensing instead. Some potential clients relent; others move on. For me, it's a smple litmus test for weeding out clients who seem more concerned with protecting IP than getting something accomplished and who could be troublesome (i.e. litigious) down the road. While contracts are useful and sometimes necessary for defining a business relationship, I've found that a mutual codepedence between contractor and client, based upon common objectives, binds much more tightly than anything written on paper. But these kinds of relationships aren't built overnight.

    I'm certainly not suggesting that you fall into the "troublesome" category, but for someone who's been in business as long as I have, the NDNC tends to be a red flag — especially when no details about the proposed venture are offered in advance. I guess what I'm suggesting is that, if you must go the NDNC route, at least dangle some bait ahead of it that might attract a potential contractor.

    In any event, I wish you well with your venture! smile.gif

    -Phil
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2009-05-13 16:33
    Ohhh Yeah we're all "scared" to sign a NDNC.....

    I have signed a couple NDNC contracts, but they are nothing but bad mojo for the consultant.

    Every NDNC I've ever seen is so open-ended that almost ANYTHING you work on could be covered.

    Anytime you work on something even remotely related, you have to worry about getting sued.

    If your idea is so easily copied, then a patent is not going to help. Unless you have millions of dollars to pay lawyers that is...

    Bean.

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    ·
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-05-13 16:44
    Bean (Hitt Consulting) said...
    Ohhh Yeah we're all "scared" to sign a NDNC.....

    I have signed a couple NDNC contracts, but they are nothing but bad mojo for the consultant.

    Every NDNC I've ever seen is so open-ended that almost ANYTHING you work on could be covered.

    Anytime you work on something even remotely related, you have to worry about getting sued.

    If your idea is so easily copied, then a patent is not going to help. Unless you have millions of dollars to pay lawyers that is...

    Bean.

    I was going to say the same thing. Because we are a group of designers/programmers/thinkers, a NDNC would have to be extremely specific to the project. Many times one idea spurs another in this forum, and there are projects which are similar in design, but not function.

    I really feel, you probably will not find anyone here proficient with the propeller, who is a business man working with the propeller, that would sign a NDNC. It could potentially put them out of work, even if the project doesn't make a dime.

    James L

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    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
  • JonnyMacJonnyMac Posts: 9,194
    edited 2009-05-13 19:04
    The "Let's get rich" comment was a red flag for me... combined with the NDNC requirement I detect the foul stench of a lawyer lurking near by. Reminds me of a vanity plate I saw on a Ferrari in Beverly Hills recently: ISUEYOU -- pretty sure the driver in the Armani suit was a lawyer.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2009-05-13 19:38
    NDNC's are standard with big companies in California. There is usually a release period of 6 months after the job is over. Of course if you only know how to do one thing, 6 months can hurt. Company wide NDA's are common requests for the right to new or breakthrough technologies especially regarding specifications ... my name is in watermark on many PDFs.

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    --Steve


    Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
  • James LongJames Long Posts: 1,181
    edited 2009-05-13 20:45
    jazzed said...
    NDNC's are standard with big companies in California. There is usually a release period of 6 months after the job is over. Of course if you only know how to do one thing, 6 months can hurt. Company wide NDA's are common requests for the right to new or breakthrough technologies especially regarding specifications ... my name is in watermark on many PDFs.

    Wow, 6 months. I've seen NDNC's that lasted 7 years.

    We work on a lot of different projects, so I couldn't sign a blanket NDNC.

    and your comment of a bunch of morons is uncalled for. If you think we are morons, why are you asking for us to help?? Jump in and learn it all, then you can do it yourself, no NDNC needed!!

    James L

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    James L
    Partner/Designer

    Lil Brother SMT Assembly Services
  • JoJo Posts: 55
    edited 2009-05-13 21:12
    Just added wperko to my ignore list. Anybody who insults the entire forum doesn't need our help.
    Very handy icon, that little thumbs down smile.gif

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    Jo
  • mosquito56mosquito56 Posts: 387
    edited 2009-05-13 21:13
    I have an African Prince friend who is going to inherit a large amount of money who also is a prop enthusiast. You may want to contact him or just wait for one of his emails to get to you. Geeks usually aren't morons, lol.

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  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2009-05-13 21:20
    hahahahahah!!! mosquito56 [noparse]:)[/noparse]
    James, we are not intellectual property slaves in California [noparse]:)[/noparse] That's one reason Silicon Valley is so prosperous. Vulture capital is another [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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    --Steve


    Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-05-13 21:51
    wperko said...
    Hi,

    Once again the forums prove to be full of morons and fantasy rather than help.

    If the cap fits ...

    Leon

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    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2009-05-13 22:10
    wperko said...
    Once again the forums prove to be full of morons and fantasy rather than help.

    Of which you were a percentage .. what is the benefit of such a comment .. and you were looking for 'Help' ! Man - That's clever..

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    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2009-05-14 01:11
    What a charming and intelligent fellow. I am surprised we weren't fighting with each other for the chance to help ; )
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,827
    edited 2009-05-14 01:14
    MODERATOR: Please delete this thread and suspend wperko!

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    My Prop Info&Apps: ·http://www.rayslogic.com/propeller/propeller.htm
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-05-14 01:44
    I think the thread should stay. It's just another leaf in of the forum's rich and tumultuous history. Besides, being characterized as a "moron" in a fit of adolescent (or geriatric?) petulance is a matter of zero significance. (I'm not sure how wperko was able to delete so many posts after they were responded to, though. I didn't think that was possible.) Moreover, wperko should keep his registration, just so we can keep track of him, if nothing more. It's part of his historical record, too:

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=720612

    -Phil
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2009-05-14 01:57
    Ah PhiPi, the magic history button! At least the thread makes a bit more sense now. As for the answer, well I suspect many people here know the answer to solving this but are not going to post it due to the way the question was asked.

    Post Edited (Dr_Acula (James Moxham)) : 5/14/2009 2:08:55 AM GMT
  • Nick McClickNick McClick Posts: 1,003
    edited 2009-05-14 02:53
    I don't know about anything else, but Non-compete agreements are unenforceable in California. Employers will usually ask you to sign one, but it isn't worth anything.

    Non-Disclosure is enforceable, though stealing intellectual property is theft, whether there's a non disclosure or not. Personally, I wish I had some intellectual property worth stealing! smile.gif

    The whole discussion reminds me of a quote I read from Howard Aiken,
    "Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."

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    Post Edited (Nick McClick) : 5/14/2009 3:03:05 AM GMT
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2009-05-14 03:32
    wperko said...
    Hi,

    Once again the forums prove to be full of morons and fantasy.....

    Wow. But, hey, if this forum is full of moronic fantasizers, the world needs more of them.
    So here's to all you moronic fantasizers here on the forum: without you, I'd be lost.

    cheers,
    Mark
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2009-05-14 05:06
    wperko...

    I tried to post a poem by Sylvia Plath... must have been too long for a quick reply.

    On most forums, this sort of situation would quickly deteriorate... no chance of that happening here of course[noparse]:)[/noparse]
    Something obviously tripped your trigger in this thread. But I can't figure out what it was,
    because everyone can modify their posts here... and I'd have investigate it further to figure it out exactly what happened.

    I read the thread linked by Phil. If you go back and read it carefully, you will see that the guys were trying to help, and they were doing it the same way that they always do... "tell me what you are doing otherwise, I'm as stumped as you are." And then the thread went dead. Did you ever get it to work? What was the problem? Most of the time, the guys really like to know what happened. AND if it happened to you... chances are it is going to happen to lots of people. So the problem is worth going after.

    Over the years, I've employed about 400 different people, and at one time had more employees doing research than Parallax has employees.

    I've only had a contract with a hand full of employees. As far as I can remember, I only had one "restrictive covenant." And that was with a guy I was paying a huge amount of money, and I thought he might turn out to be an ***....le. The limitation was that he couldn't open an office in the same town for a couple of months.

    It is possible to write a reasonable restrictive covenant. You can specify a particular market for a particular period. Most guys would sign it.

    But there are only so many ways to do things... and if you tell a guy he can't use his own intellectual property for his own purposes. then I think you are going to get the kinds of responses that you got here... "Thanks, but no thanks."

    There have been guys who got themselves really shafted, and the mechanism of the shafting was a restrictive covenant of some sort... which was actually used to make unfair claims upon a person's intellectual property or right to work for a competitor. There are protections built into case law ... but most guys don't want to get a lawyer just to do what they do. And if they are careful, then they won't need a lawyer.

    As far as I can tell... that is all anyone was trying to say.

    The best information on this forum is sometimes when a guy explains why something won't work. There are lots of guys with business experience here. If they tell you, "that's not going to work," it is exactly the kind of advice that is most valuable.

    Most of the guys here don't seem to know how special they really are. You could go a long time without bumping into another group like this.

    Insults are completely inappropriate.


    Rich
  • heaterheater Posts: 3,370
    edited 2009-05-14 06:31
    I followed this from the beginning, I really don't understand why wperko got so miffed. People were only expressing their views about about business dealings and contracts.

    Walt Perko seems to be a creative enough chap. You can check his web site here www.brainless.org/

    Warning: Most of his web pages will give you headache with all the over the top colours, flashing and animation.

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  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-05-14 09:12
    That has to be one of the worst web sites I have ever seen!

    Leon

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    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • rjo_rjo_ Posts: 1,825
    edited 2009-05-14 12:43
    Don't know...

    Walter is a comedian... I wonder if he isn't being intentionally confrontational. If you go to the page that is linked by... "would you like to see me
    naked?" it has an incredible number of youtube videos... some of which are of a boebot with a camera.

    Walter performs in a number of the videos... singing[noparse]:)[/noparse]


    My computer didn't stop churning until I closed the page... so go at your own risk. Walter might be trying to stimulate interest in his web site because he has a new way to look at your computer. OR maybe his server has another problem.

    Rich
  • hippyhippy Posts: 1,981
    edited 2009-05-14 18:34
    wperko said...
    Once again the forums prove to be full of morons and fantasy rather than help.

    Wow. When I last looked at the thread there was just the one post, and now I return the whole world's gone up in flames !

    I didn't see anything particularly wrong or objectionable with the original opening post, but nor do I see anything wrong with any of the replies, though there seems to be posts deleted so it's hard to judge everything.

    I've signed NDA's and I've also refused to. I consider them on a case by case basis and it depends on exactly what one potentially gains or loses in signing. I certainly agree that anyone signing an NDA should understand the consequences of that and not sign casually. It is however interesting to hear what others think and their views are entirely valid whether I agree with them or not.

    The people who posted in response before the 'thread was pulled' are not those I'd personally choose to call morons. But it's one way to burn your bridges I suppose.

    @ mosquito56 : ROTFLMAO.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-05-14 19:01
    hippy said...
    The people who posted in response before the 'thread was pulled' are not those I'd personally choose to call morons.
    Well, um, thanks for that! It makes my day ... kinda. smile.gif

    -Phil
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2009-05-14 22:05
    It's kinda refreshing to be considered a "moron".

    I've dealt with NDAs as well as a consultant. The ones I did sign were pretty clear about what was covered. I've also dealt with a couple of non-compete agreements. Like others mentioned, these have to be limited in geographic scope and timeframe. The most recent one involved a 1 or 2 mile radius in an urban area for a year and was written so it wouldn't really affect me even if it were invoked otherwise.
  • T ChapT Chap Posts: 4,223
    edited 2009-05-14 22:16
    The most interesting thing about the thread really is the avatar of the OP
  • mosquito56mosquito56 Posts: 387
    edited 2009-05-14 22:26
    Amazing what will keep a moron occupied and entertained. Didn't notice the pic of the guy. He must be a part time clown as well as a full time idiot.

    ·This thread is a hoot. lol

    One entertained moron.

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    ······· "What do you mean, it doesn't have any tubes?"
    ······· "No such thing as a dumb question" unless it's on the internet
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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2009-05-15 00:26
    We may all be morons, but let's at least not join him on the low road with tit-for-tat personal characterizations. It is a public forum, after all.

    That's probably not him in the photo anyway. I'm betting it's George Boswell, from Big Brother I, wearing a wig.

    -Phil
  • PhilldapillPhilldapill Posts: 1,283
    edited 2009-05-15 03:15
    In a strange way, I wish there were more of these types of threads. I JUST jumped in so I didn't see his other posts(apparently deleted?). However, from the very first post, I couldn't stop laughing. What a great "lol" moment to end a hard day of work. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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