Blade #2 variants - External Ram Prop for your Proto Board
Cluso99
Posts: 18,069
I am in the process of completing a design for a small smt board based on Blade #2 of my TriBladeProp pcb which will plug into another prop board such as the Prop Proto Board (I saw the USB version is on sale today).
Over the last few weeks I have been arguing with myself (yes, I do that) over two possible solutions and how to compromise. I have decided to do both, so here is a description. I expect pcbs in 2.5 weeks (because I have other work first) which gives me enough time to order the parts.
1. Very similar to a·Blade #2: with only one 512Kx8 55nS SRAM and one microSD socket, one Propeller, crystal·and one AT25C512 eeprom and a 6 pin header (PropPlug serial·plus power 3V3) and a separate 2 pin header for just power (3V3 and GND). No latch and no Flash. The 6 pin header can mate to a Spin Studio provided 3V3 is added to the unused pin. Small pcb less than 2"x2" all smt with preassembled option.
2. A faster version to Blade #2: one 1MBx8 45/55ns SRAM and one microSD socket, one Propeller, and crystal. A programmed micro to do decoding and code loading to the Prop (no Eeprom). Code may not be·loadable·with PropPlug??? The Prop will effectively boot from a microSD binary under FAT16. Same 6 pin header and 2 pin header as above. Small pcb less than 2"x2" all smt with preassembled option.
Both these boards will run ZiCog with CPM2.2 or CPM3 with bank switched memory. Other emulations are possible, together with PropDos/PropCmd, FemtoBasic, and potentially propeller C. These pcbs are designed to be the power house of a project. They can in their own right be a single board computer running CPM, only requiring an external terminal and suitable interface chip to the available 2 wire serial, plus a power supply.
Estimated assembled price US$40 and US$55 respectively plus US$15 for formatted·2GB·microSD plus shipping.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/28/2009 3:59:53 AM GMT
Over the last few weeks I have been arguing with myself (yes, I do that) over two possible solutions and how to compromise. I have decided to do both, so here is a description. I expect pcbs in 2.5 weeks (because I have other work first) which gives me enough time to order the parts.
1. Very similar to a·Blade #2: with only one 512Kx8 55nS SRAM and one microSD socket, one Propeller, crystal·and one AT25C512 eeprom and a 6 pin header (PropPlug serial·plus power 3V3) and a separate 2 pin header for just power (3V3 and GND). No latch and no Flash. The 6 pin header can mate to a Spin Studio provided 3V3 is added to the unused pin. Small pcb less than 2"x2" all smt with preassembled option.
2. A faster version to Blade #2: one 1MBx8 45/55ns SRAM and one microSD socket, one Propeller, and crystal. A programmed micro to do decoding and code loading to the Prop (no Eeprom). Code may not be·loadable·with PropPlug??? The Prop will effectively boot from a microSD binary under FAT16. Same 6 pin header and 2 pin header as above. Small pcb less than 2"x2" all smt with preassembled option.
Both these boards will run ZiCog with CPM2.2 or CPM3 with bank switched memory. Other emulations are possible, together with PropDos/PropCmd, FemtoBasic, and potentially propeller C. These pcbs are designed to be the power house of a project. They can in their own right be a single board computer running CPM, only requiring an external terminal and suitable interface chip to the available 2 wire serial, plus a power supply.
Estimated assembled price US$40 and US$55 respectively plus US$15 for formatted·2GB·microSD plus shipping.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/28/2009 3:59:53 AM GMT
Comments
tubular
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Just one thing bothers me though ... Every time I look at one of these designs, I don't see any extra pins.
Not a dig at you by any means, but what is the value add besides having more memory?
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
The whole prop is dedicated to running the external ram and SD interface, leaving only 2 pins for serial I/O (at high speed). As you are well aware, there is no other way to keep memory access speed up to external ram. This has been my whole reason behind using more than one prop for the job.
It is just like the old days... You have a main processor and external peripherals. But they are of course using the same processor chip, so programming them can be simple. This is a cost effective solution.
Compare my solution to the N8VEM board. One prop, xtal, sram, microSD, eeprom/decoder and I can run heaters ZiCog and CPM under emulation.
The bottom line is what do you want to do? It is of no use buying a Porsche if you want to move 5 tons of dirt - you need a truck. Same applies here... if you don't want to run big programs or emulations, you don't need external ram, so you don't need my solution.
BTW: No offence taken... comments are good because it narrows the focus to the solution provided, and sometimes provokes a new and better solution. Your previous comments on timing has done just that.
Mike:
Because the moment you break the code into blocks you must test for this condition and then change the latch. That presupposes you know something about the code you are executing, which I do not (e.g. CPM, even though it is by emulation). The latch is a time consuming process. My decoding is actually minimal and quite tricky so that there is no delay imposed on the·ram access.
BTW, what you suggest is very similar to what I have done on Blade #1 of the TriBlade Prop, but it is not being used.
On the second variant above... The way I am accessing the ram precludes the normal eeprom and serial I/O used to download code. But I almost double the ram read speed (now 4 instructions)·and get a 30% increase in ram write speed (now 8 instructions), and the chip hardly costs any more than the eeprom anyway. This is why I decided to go with both variants. [noparse][[/noparse]Instruction count excludes call/return]
If you really think about it, I am really extending Chip's concept of separate cogs to a job, to separate Propeller Chips to a job.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/28/2009 5:19:39 AM GMT
It strikes me that you could alternatively use those 2 precious bits as a cmd/clk for performing "master" mode synchronous packet bus transfers with another propeller over a 10 bit interface cmd+clk+8data (or 16data for speed). That would be much faster than sending all data over serial interface. One of my first ideas was to do that though the synchronous interface evolved. You can use practically any bits for the data transfers but that slows XMM execution.
I'm suggesting that you bring out pins P0-P17 to a header in addition to P30/31. This would allow for synchronous transactions with a second propeller.
I think about the gist of your Porsche analogy often these days .... Propeller can be a Porsche but be wary of the tight clutch.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
I am *still* trying to convince Future Electronics that I do not intend putting 10 sram chips into a nuclear missile. So while the parts are on order they are going to take a while. Your board may well be finished by then! Also, some micro sd card sockets arrived yesterday from sparkfun. These look almost impossible to solder - you have to get the iron inside the holder somehow. I think a lot of SMT assumes solder paste and an oven, which is nifty when you watch it on the videos on YouTube where it just heats up and suddenly thousands of solder pads are all soldered at once. So pre-built boards are going to be useful for even those of us who can solder.
How does this little board talk to other boards? Is it just via those two spare pins you have? I'm thinking of my Propeller PockeTerm which has a standard D9 RS232 plug on it. I presume that wouldn't work with the single blade 2 board? Or would you go RS232 instead? Or several RS232 ports? I'm thinking of all the bits I have around me that are standardised RS232 - radio links, ethernet links, relay boards, sensor boards, GPS etc. Most of which are ultra simple RS232 too, eg Tx, Rx and Gnd.
Or would blade #2 only connect to another prop on blade #1 to do the display? In which case why not use the triblade? Or what about a pre-made version of the triblade??
I remain amazed at how this is shrinking. You have taken the N8VEM board and now got it to 2x2"!
Post Edited (Dr_Acula (James Moxham)) : 4/28/2009 6:40:37 AM GMT
What about a quotation of a preassembled Triblade with 256 or 512 kB of SRAM?
Yours Carlo
Its just 2 Prop I/O pins for FDX or PC_keyboard and PC_Text, so you can connect via RS232 drivers to PockeTerm or direct without RS232 if thats possible on PockeTerm. It is not designed to hook to the TriBladeProp although it could. It is designed to hook to
a) Prop Proto Board or a Spin Studio baseboard (with mod, or separate power)
b) PropPlug to communicate with a PC (not to load code on variant 2)
b) PockeTerm or any other Terminal via an RS232 adapter.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Here is a suggestion: Bring out the 8 data bus lines, a hand full of address lines and the control signals (R/W etc) for use driving external devices.
What we have here is a regular looking microprocessor bus interface for the Propeller implemented in PASM driving data bus, address bus and control signals (read/write etc). This of course eats all the Propeller pins leaving only two for a serial I/O link.
Any attempt to recover some of those pins for regular Prop I/O, narrowing the buses, using latches etc is a disaster for the RAM access speed. Especially if the access is from other COGs than the RAM user.
BUT, and here is the suggestion, if we now have a regular address/data bus system why not use it as such. That is put I/O devices in the address space of that BUS. For example it is quite possible the bus could be used to access some traditional UART chips. But more importantly those other I/O devices could be other propellers.
So imagine this, Blade #2 is running a program under emulation or better still running some C compiled PASM in XMM. It now has access to some I/O peripherals on that memory bus just as if it was running on a normal micro.
Now RAM access always goes at full speed, the only possible slow down being when the XMM program wants to do some I/O which I think is fair enough. Basically the XMM program becomes the master of those bus pins.
Apart from the SD card, which should be available to other COGs to drive, as it is now, such that large programs can be loaded and the file system works at a good speed. We just have to accept that program execution halts when accessing SD.
Attached is a very rough block diagram of the scheme.
Edit: What is not shown is that there is still the high speed serial link available between props as well.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Post Edited (heater) : 4/28/2009 9:37:55 AM GMT
Re leaving out the eeprom, I didn't know the prop could do that. If it saves a part, well that is very cunning.
Addit - re access to the bus or not, I've pondered this as well. UARTs for instance, well the 16C550 is about $4 and you get one serial port. But a propeller can behave as multiple uarts. Other I/O - hmm, sometimes you need it and sometimes you actually do not need it. I'm looking at the triblade and the n8vem and thinking that if you start adding things to the bus, soon you may as well add a real z80 as well and not use the prop. But on the other hand, maybe a bus is useful. Are there other things besides a uart that might be useful? I'm kind of getting to like the idea of a standalone main board that is only 2x2"...
Post Edited (Dr_Acula (James Moxham)) : 4/28/2009 10:04:52 AM GMT
Just for the record - I think I have again made the misassumption it is Spin Studio compatable - if I recall correctly, the GND pin is on the end so it will not work without modification.
Heater: There are not the pins for doing a proper decode function without probably introducing·delays. What you are suggesting is quite possible although this will most likely result in wait cycles being introduced to·access·external devices. It is certainly not my focus at this point in time. Currently I prefer to use another prop for the other I/O devices.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
OK forget about UARTS and such. Their interface/timing requirements may never match the XMM bus and the last thing we want to do is drive the bus differently depending which device address we are talking to. That's a speed hit. Think parallel bus to another Propeller board.
Question: Is it possible to Program that peripheral Propeller to work on this bus without changing the RAM driving PASM. i.e. can it respond in time and keep up ? If not it's not worth doing. However I think the pins should still come out. Someone may be quite happy to halt their emulation/XMM code and mess with a peripheral device. Just for flexibilities sake.
No the Prop need an EEPROM, or more specifically it need to think it's got one ! This one of Cluso's sneaky tricks that I'm sure he will elaborate on in due time.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
So now the pressure is on that serial I/O link. Ultimately this needs to run at maximum speed and carry multiplexed channels such that multiple virtual serial ports or whatever can be implemented through it.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
It will be easier to send it via a serial interface as a command and byte/word/long etc and let the cog on the other end pass it on the the appropriate cog to handle. With the work Beau has done I have no doubts we can achieve this later. Much to do and I am just getting back into it after a week of other things.
Other interfaces: I am mindful of having to already maintain various drivers and interfaces and I do not want to create a minefield.
Eeprom: The Prop does not require one, but it has to be loaded from somewhere to do anything. There are 2 ways - via Eeprom or via the serial (and reset). If you have more than one prop and available resources, there is no need to duplicate eeproms which can save cost and real estate. Obviously, to eliminate the required eeprom, you have to either emulate the eeprom or drive the serial and reset lines. I cannot tell you which yet, because I have not decided. I can say at this point I anticipate loading from another micro's flash memory and the layout currently has provision for both, using a Freescale MC9S08xxxx derivative, which also does the minimal decoding. This is subject to change because I am trying to include something else and this may affect what I do.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Things like FullDuplexSerial would then just use this multiplex serial driver to send/receive their bytes in their allocated slots.
Keep It Simple that is.
As for the BUS idea, perhaps the peripheral COG could be fast enough to catch a write operation and buffer it for working on by another COG or so. Don't forget the Prop driving this bus is having to execute a bunch of code to do the access which itself is part of a bunch of code in an emulator or XMM loop so ultimately there is quite some time between accesses.
Reads are more of a problem as the peripheral Prop has to decode the address and decide what to return. More Hmmm....
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For me, the past is not over yet.
The new boards sound interesting. Keep us informed as to when they are ready for ordering. I have got my TriBladeProp up and running CPM with terminal running on Blade 1. I am spending sometime trying to understand more deeply the SD card interface and its workings with CPM in the next phase after running from ramdisk.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
We need a standard established for memory and Ray I think you may
just be on to the solution!
(Still waiting for my Future Electronics order, and I'll be building the TriBlade.)
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
We all know the main proliferators are North Dakota www.theonion.com/content/node/27654
The mini triblade sounds fantastic. There are lots of possibilities for those two data lines. I'd be happy with just 1200 baud to an RS232 port, as I've got CP/M code that can exchange files wirelessly via xmodem at 1200 baud. Speed isn't always the factor. Indeed, with wireless, it works fine to exchange files when the airwaves are quiet. CP/M files are pretty small anyway, generally <30k as they come from an operating system that was written before bloatware was invented.
I'm intrigued about the loader that doesn't need the eeprom - does this work out cheaper than an eeprom?
Post Edited (Dr_Acula (James Moxham)) : 4/28/2009 2:44:26 PM GMT
I am trying to fit it into a box as well
OBC: Dr_A: Can I claim my TriBladeProp is being used as a missile controller??? - Gee we will have the FEDs ASIO chasing us shortly
I missed a post above that asked about a fully assembled TriBladeProp. I don't have enough parts at present but I am about to place an order for the new parts so I may get a few extra smt parts but there is not enough demand for fully assembled pcbs unless theya re smt. Please email me.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/28/2009 3:01:35 PM GMT
They probably pay attention to us electronics guys too.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
I think Cluso is onto a winner with this. The easier it is to hook up to a Prop Demo board the more people are going to be interested in it. So to line serial with a high speed driver at each end is probably just fine.
Bring on the XMM C compilers and or SPIN interpreters.
It's a real shame we can't squeeze out a few more pins for TV out. Given that the idea is to have this running most code from ext RAM it could fit a TV driver in HUB still.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Is 1MByte of SRAM really necessary?? I am thinking of only 512KBytes which is more than adequate for CPM3 with bank switching (256KB) and a small 256KB ram disk if required.
I only intend to do version 2 above but with 512KB, not two versions as I originally suggested. The new pcb will have faster access to SRAM than the TriBlade and I am going to standardise on this faster method. I will publish this as a proposed standard after I have the pcbs.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
number of pins and HUB .bss, etc ... on Propeller. Unfortunately LMM is a space hog
so I fear that anything less than 1MB will leave serious applications (beyond CPM) short.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
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JMH
I was pondering about memery for the prop2 at 1.8V but there are plenty even through Farnell, but all with no visible gaps between the pins. I just do not get the theory of bung it under a flame thrower and it'll all solder up ok and leave nothing stressed!