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Signal delivery through glass for lightening detector — Parallax Forums

Signal delivery through glass for lightening detector

bdbbdb Posts: 30
edited 2009-04-23 05:33 in BASIC Stamp
I'm trying to think out of the box here.

I have plans from a book for a homebrew lightening detector.· Antenna is basically some PVC pipes covering a copper pipe, attach a few NPN transistors and a coax cable.··· Interface antenna to optoisolator.····

*) As a Ham, I'm well used to leading a coax through a window - replace a window pane with plexiglass.· Either 1) put a small nick in the corner, the cable runs through the nick, and seal the nick around the calbe.· or 2) replace pane with plexiglass, but in the plexiglass put an SO-239 barrell connector - providing a cable attachment on each side.

However, the barrell connector idea adds 2 connections, each connection eats up·a couple of dB, and the signal itself is a rather weak signal.

*) I could connect the antenna to an outside radio transmitter.· But that would add to the cost, power consumption, etc.

*) I could go with a plan similar to the "through the glass antenna", using magnetic coupling to go through the glass.· But again, we're talking a really weak and erratic signal.

So I've started thinking, as I'm gonna use an optoisolator anyway, Does anyone make an optoisolator that goes through a glass pane ?· Admittely, the glass would scatter the light some.·

Comments

  • FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
    edited 2009-04-20 16:31
    Since the signal at the opto has to be ~3-5v I dont see why you couldn't build something. Why not just drill a hole in the plexy and feed the unterminated cable through?

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    - Stephen
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2009-04-20 16:55
    Glass doesn't transmit IR very well.

    Leon

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    Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
    Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
  • Mike2545Mike2545 Posts: 433
    edited 2009-04-20 22:00
    You should probably use a silicone tube and a pressure switch to minimize a lightning bolt following the wire into the house.

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    Mike2545

    This message sent to you on 100% recycled electrons.
  • vaclav_salvaclav_sal Posts: 451
    edited 2009-04-21 01:50
    Back off a little before you get into trouble.
    Do some research into this high voltage enterprise first.
    ·
    Better yet – post your book schematic and description of the whole setup.
    You lightening· “source” ea antenna can under right condition generate more than few volts!

    Some commercial receivers used to sport a neon bulb in the antenna input.
    Relatively large antenna (140 feet long) would light up this neon during a local thunderstorm like a Christmas tree!
    .
    The “ fire on ” voltage of these neon bulbs was in vicinity of 100V!
    ·
    If I would build a lightening detector I would not route the “antenna” into my shack – only the detected data. Just add to your project· “remote” lightening detector.
    ·
    And of course – be prepared to write your test setup off (and other possessions) as loss if you get a direct hit.
    ·
    By the way – my short ham radio antenna feed line (coax) is wrapped with few turns of wire -about 10 feet long -·and connected to the ground rod and I do not feel very comfortable when Texas thunderstorm rolls by!
    ·
    Just be careful and good luck.
    ·
    Cheers
    Vaclav
    ·
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2009-04-21 12:05
    Just a couple of points:

    It's lightning, not "lightening".

    Ever spent any time in a greenhouse? ·IR transmits through glass alright, UV does not.· IR transmits well enough·through glass fibre-optic cable, too, that's what hi-speed internet's all about.·
  • ManetherenManetheren Posts: 117
    edited 2009-04-21 18:48
    You might try a cheap fiber optic learning kit as this will give you fiber and connectors that you could put through the window or might even get you enough connectors to spice in a connector at the window assuming you use plexi and dont just cut the corner off and reseal.· It will also get you a little protection in case of hits you would just loose the items outside the house and not everything.

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    Manetheren
  • ManetherenManetheren Posts: 117
    edited 2009-04-21 18:50
    Also you might want to find a shunt (·http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_(electrical)#Lightning_arrestor
    ·) that would protect your tower electronics from a direct hit.

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    Manetheren
  • FearTurtlesFearTurtles Posts: 89
    edited 2009-04-21 19:05
    IR light that is associated with heat does not pass through glass very well but IR from something like a remote control does just fine.

    @Mike2545 and vaclav_sal
    I think the detector in question her simply picks up the RF emitted from Lightning. It is as harmless as any other type of antenna.
  • Harrison.Harrison. Posts: 484
    edited 2009-04-21 19:59
    Does the circuit come from Tim Bitson's weather book? I built an earlier revision of his lightning detector, and found that it works fine indoors. I don't really see a need to mount it outdoors (I only needed a few miles of detection radius).
  • bdbbdb Posts: 30
    edited 2009-04-22 01:29
    Thanks so much for the information. I'm a little hesitant to post the plans, as they're from a book - I'm getting them from Stamp2 Communications and Control Projects by Tom Petruzzellis, McGraw Hill, 2003.

    There are a couple of safety items including that the antenna is a 12 " (just under 1/3 meter) piece of copper pipe and the mounting is at a low level (I'm looking at maybe 5 feet off the ground). The author doesn't call it such, but the circuit board next to the antenna uses a couple of NPNs, 2 small diodes, 2 resistors and 9V battery - so that board would fry pretty quickly but is only a couple of dollars and a few minutes work. I'd also thought of putting in another wall of something that would fry fast, just in case.

    Then the end of the coax attaches through an optoisolator to the BS2.

    Even with that, thanks so much for the idea of getting a fiber optic kit to play with. A lightening arrestor sounds like a good idea too - For my personal safety, all my radio equipment is disconnected except when I'm using it. But the problem with a lightning detector is that I'd want to run it specifically because there is bad weather.

    Also hadn't thought about how much I'd loose if I just mounted the antenna inside.

    So I think what I'll do is first make an indoor version. And also look into fiber optics as a way of putting it outside.

    Again, thanks for all the help and ideas.
  • bdbbdb Posts: 30
    edited 2009-04-22 01:38
    Harrison,

    I'm going to have to look up the Bitson book. Was able to get a table of contents and it looks quite interesting.

    To your question, I don't know for sure, but in the front of my book he has a thank you to the folks who had input to his projects, and one of the persons listed was Tim Bitson. So I'm suspicious that you're directly on the mark.
  • Harrison.Harrison. Posts: 484
    edited 2009-04-22 03:21
    Tim Bitson has a BS2 lightning detector project posted on his website: www.timbitson.com/Weather_Projects_files/bslam.pdf. Hobby Boards is the manufacturer of the lightning detector used in the book (schematics are freely available on the web): www.hobby-boards.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=1550.
  • Mike2545Mike2545 Posts: 433
    edited 2009-04-22 11:13
    I don't know a lot about lightning but after traveling the 1/2 mile through air, I don't think that a transistor and a circuit board will stop it, if it is a direct hit.

    _lightning__by_Sparky1232.gif

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    Mike2545

    This message sent to you on 100% recycled electrons.
  • FearTurtlesFearTurtles Posts: 89
    edited 2009-04-22 12:19
    There is not much you can do to save the receiver if it receives a direct hit other then putting a lightning arrester on the feed-line. Even then its not a sure thing. I wouldn't worry much about it. You can put the receiver anywhere and it will work just fine. A lightning detector is no more attractive to Lightning then lawn furniture at the same elevation.
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-04-22 22:04
    bdb said...
    the barrell connector idea adds 2 connections, each connection eats up·a couple of dB, and the signal itself is a rather weak signal.
    Nowhere near it.· It might add a tenth of a db, total, which shouldn't matter at all.

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    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-04-22 22:13
    Lightning detectors work by detecting the radio-frequency noise generated by lightning, not by detecting the lightning stroke directly.· There's basically no danger at all in a short antenna so near the ground -- it's not going to be hit by lightning, especially since it's encased in an insulating pipe and therefore cannot generate a corona discharge that would create a preferential path for the lightning.· Lightning would hit the house first, or a nearby tree or·telephone pole.

    What you are building is a specialized radio receiver.· Design it with that understanding, and you'll see that most of·your fretting is needless.

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    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net

    Post Edited (Carl Hayes) : 4/22/2009 10:48:56 PM GMT
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-04-22 22:21
    FearTurtles said...
    IR light that is associated with heat does not pass through glass very well but IR from something like a remote control does just [url=mailto:fine.@Mike2545]fine.[/url]
    Interesting statement.· I don't believe it.· Does each photon carry a passport so the glass can determine its origin?

    Of course the IR from a hot object will have a wider spectrum than the narrowband IR from a remote control.· Some of that will be at frequencies that don't pass through some kinds of glass very well.· But most of it will get through without much trouble.· Don't believe it?· Feel your sunward windowpane on a sunny day.· If the glass were absorbing much IR it would get very hot, and burn your hand·-- compare it with a black iron pipe left out in the same sunlight.

    Does your car have a black steering wheel?· Does it get painfully hot when you park facing the afternoon sun?· That heat is IR coming through glass.· Notice that the windshield glass didn't get nearly so hot.· That's because it isn't absorbing much IR.

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    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net

    Post Edited (Carl Hayes) : 4/22/2009 10:56:48 PM GMT
  • bdbbdb Posts: 30
    edited 2009-04-23 03:24
    Thanks for the link Harrison.· I don't have the book in front of me, but the first URI you gave is extremely similar to the book I have (A lot of the wording is, to my memory, identical.· I see some small changes, like the physical orientation of one of the NPNs is 180 degrees different).·

    So I think I have a do-able plan.
  • bdbbdb Posts: 30
    edited 2009-04-23 03:31
    As Carl and some others have noted, what I'm talking about (see the links Harrison posted), is going to be maybe 4 or 5 feet off the ground and the antenna is only 12 inches long. So I'm not terribly concerned about direct strikes.

    I'd still like to add a tad of protection, and was initially thinking of putting a light signal on one side of my window glass and receiver on the inside (basically an optoisolator with an inside and an outside part. Seeing the suggestions, I'd like to thank everyone. I'm kind of leaning to a Fiberoptic kit - both for the better isolation and the chance to get a little experience.

    Again, Thanks so much for your help
  • Carl HayesCarl Hayes Posts: 841
    edited 2009-04-23 05:33
    One wonders.· If you hope to pass RF through an optoisolator, I think you'll be a little disappointed.· All the lightning detectors I've seen looked for fast-risetime broadband RF pulses created by lighting strokes.· I think you need a nice piece of coaxial cable.

    My coax cables (seven of them) pass through long barrel connectors stuck through holes in a piece of wood cut to a length that just fits across the bottom of a window opening.· I opened the window (10 years ago), put the board with the barrels in the bottom of the opening, lowered the window down on the board, put screws in the sash to lock the window in place (foiling any really inept burglars), and stuffed plastic foam around the top of the sliding window to keep out the bugs.· Then I hooked up the antennas to the outside ends of the barrels, and hooked my antenna selector switch to the inside ends of the barrels.

    It's been there ten years and is doing fine.

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    · -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
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