Kite Space Program - with Basic Stamps
Humanoido
Posts: 5,770
The country I'm in does not allow the launching of rockets or high altitude balloons. (The small space telescope satellite I designed is on hold for now.) But it does allow kite flying which is the most popular and widely supported hobby here.
My idea is to fly a kite to extreme altitudes. So far, I have success with a mile of special string until various factors have limited the flights. My kites have flown much higher than my previous rockets which is interesting. That in itself gave me an idea.
My new idea is to develop a way to release the kite from the string to gain additional altitude. It would need to be some kind of hybrid bird kite, capable of sustaining lift without the string, and rising to altitudes that have enough wind lift.
I'm sure it cannot reach the technical definition of near space, limited by thin atmosphere and supporting wind, though any appreciable gain in miles would be viewed as significant. It could be a kind of poor-man's near-near space program. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Another idea is perhaps to use a larger kite, capable of attaining higher altitudes and holding heavier payloads.
I envision a Basic Stamp payload and disposable camera package to wireless relay imagery/telemetry to an Earth-based receiving station with a large 20-foot parabolic antenna borrowed from old satellite TV receiver installations, or by stringing antenna wire between tall adjacent skyscraper buildings.
I think the kite, payload, and string may need to be disposable, once released, like the early USA Ranger program where the satellites crashed into the Moon.
All comments are welcome, even if you think its a crazy idea and want to flame me.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 4/14/2009 11:27:12 PM GMT
My idea is to fly a kite to extreme altitudes. So far, I have success with a mile of special string until various factors have limited the flights. My kites have flown much higher than my previous rockets which is interesting. That in itself gave me an idea.
My new idea is to develop a way to release the kite from the string to gain additional altitude. It would need to be some kind of hybrid bird kite, capable of sustaining lift without the string, and rising to altitudes that have enough wind lift.
I'm sure it cannot reach the technical definition of near space, limited by thin atmosphere and supporting wind, though any appreciable gain in miles would be viewed as significant. It could be a kind of poor-man's near-near space program. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Another idea is perhaps to use a larger kite, capable of attaining higher altitudes and holding heavier payloads.
I envision a Basic Stamp payload and disposable camera package to wireless relay imagery/telemetry to an Earth-based receiving station with a large 20-foot parabolic antenna borrowed from old satellite TV receiver installations, or by stringing antenna wire between tall adjacent skyscraper buildings.
I think the kite, payload, and string may need to be disposable, once released, like the early USA Ranger program where the satellites crashed into the Moon.
All comments are welcome, even if you think its a crazy idea and want to flame me.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 4/14/2009 11:27:12 PM GMT
Comments
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
I have had ideas for stuff like this, but i live near a us air force base
Safety and legal issues aside, I see no way for a kite, maybe you can't call it a kite after it's released, to gain altitude. Assuming that it is not lighter than air of course.
There are three ways I know of for a free flying and unpowered craft to gain altitude and they are all similar.
The fist is thermic. Circling in rising bubbles or columns of warm air, also know as thermaling. It depends greatly on uneven heating of the Earth's surface as well as atmospheric conditions such as lapse rate. Lapse rate is basically how quickly the temperature changes as you gain altitude. The air in a thermal rises because it is warmer and therefore less dense. As it rises it it expands because the pressure gets lower and thus cools. The lapse rate will tell you at what altitude it will reach equilibrium and it will not be possible to thermal any higher.
The second is ridge lift. Wind hits a hill, cliff, sand dune, mountain, hotel etc... and get deflected upwards. So long as you stay in the zone you stay flying. There are some variations to ridge lift. One is a mountain wave. Wind flowing over a mountain range can create a series of waves where very high altitudes can be reached in glassy smooth lift. However, roll clouds - lenticular clouds, lie beneath and are deadly turbulent. Another is when one air mass collides with another and rides atop of it. The denser air mass essentially takes place of the hill.
The third is dynamic soaring. This is what seabirds will do. They will ride in the ridge lift created by a wave, water wave that is, like in the ocean, staying low to the water in the compression zone to gain speed. They will then rise up and fly in the direction they really wanted to go until altitude is lost, then do it all over again. As far as I know, only birds can make use of this type of unpowered flight.
Now depending upon your location it might be within the realm of possibility to make use of one of the above. I think it would require a craft smart enough to seek out and stay in such lifting areas.
It is in my plans to make such a craft, but not for a while.
Hmmm, there is another way, but again, straining practicality. If you could get your kite into an air mass that is moving significantly faster than the one below it - you could have a second kite lower on the string in the slow air mass acting as an anchor. You could also think of the lower kite as the keel of a sailboat and the upper one as the sail. In theory, as long as you keep each kite in air masses that travel at different speeds you can keep flying. Eventually the upper kite reaches an area of stability and you can go no higher.
If there is instability, there will be a way to extract energy. Making it work is the trick.
Rich H
Hang glider pilot
Harbor freight has some very thin and flexible solar panels that might work for Your App. They are lite in weight and provide 12volts in direct sun light.
They won't make enough power to lift Your kyte of the ground but they should make enough power to move some flaps on Your kyte when its up in the trade winds!
Thanks for Reminding how good I have here in the USA!!! I can launch what ever- when ever!
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The Truth is out there············································ BoogerWoods, FL. USA
It is true that you can launch small model rockets without restrictions, but there are restrictions on larger rockets and high altitude rockets.· If the rocket weighs more than 3.3 pounds or goes higher than a certain altitude you must notify the FAA first.· Above a certain altitude you must get a waiver from the FAA, and they will send a NOTAM out to pilots to stay clear of the area.· Also, if the propellant has more than 62.5 grams of mass you must have a low-explosive user permit from the BATFE.· However, the BATFE restriction may go away based on a recent court ruling.
Dave
(Respectfully[noparse]:)[/noparse] I think you're a little off on the comments about altitude: there are no altitude legal limitations on model rockets, and none on rockets that simply require notification. If you could get an Estes Alpha to go to 30,000 feet on an unregulated motor you'd be perfectly legal doing so. It's true that waivers have altitude limits, but the requirements for the waiver or for notification are not based on how high the rockets will go. They're based on rocket weight and propellant weight.
In addition, the rocket weight notification threshold is 1 pound, not 3.3 pounds. 3.3 pounds is what moves you from notification to needing a waiver.
·
If you fly a rocket weighing less than a pound on a model rocket sized motor you can go as high as you like, but over a pound of weight and/or up into the higher impulse motors means you start needing to follow certain regulations, and those regulations are (as you noted) separate from the BATFE regs, and are not going to go away.
Edit: I should add that the FAA issues a NOTAM about the rocket launch when you send your notification, not just when you activate a waiver. When we fly mid-power rockets (1-3.3 pounds, or with a certain range of propellant mass) at our local launch, we have to give notification, and the NOTAM is issued (and, of course, completely ignored by pilots, sigh). A NOTAM is also issued when we have a high power waivered launch down at Bong Recreation Area.
'nother edit: Dang. I forgot that they changed the rules last year.·Dave is right about the 3.3 pounds - the 1 pound limit no longer exists. My mistake.
Old habits die hard.
Post Edited (sylvie369) : 3/23/2009 11:54:17 PM GMT
Not if you use hybrids!
Rich H
No relative wind, no lift.· The kite will begin falling as soon as you release it, and will continue falling until the Earth rises up and smites it.
Alas.
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· -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
The multiple kite theory is an interesting one. It reminds me of the NASA Space Program involving Tethers and perhaps a widely imaginative incorporated design would be possible at the highest levels.
No one mentioned the jet stream. It would be a way to gain considerable propulsion laterally around the globe to varying distances. We all know, as you run back with a kite, it imparts energy to the kite and lifts it higher in the wind. What if a several hundred mph jet stream current was at your disposal as the lofting agent? With some rugged kiting, some heavy lofting could take place in the upper atmosphere. Perhaps this "carrying propulsion" wind stream can impart energy to a secondary kite-craft. The craft could then hoist to a higher altitude level while the first Earth level kite string could be disconnected and dropped (or reeled in with a motorized stamp propelled string spooler, a spin off of advanced fishing reels with bearing and sensors).
I don't know if I'm overstepping any thought boundary's here, but I think if we can get to high altitudes with rockets and balloons, it just seems some clever kiting may be another viable option. Think of it, this can be an entire new field where we can experiment and explore the upper limits of the atmosphere. It may also be probable that working with kites involves no flammables and no explosives, thus could be much safer.
humanoido
It would be interesting to determine the maximum altitude as a function of tensile strength.· This computation may be already on the internet somewhere.· I would guess that the best materials would not be bio-degradable.· Reeling in 30 km of string/cable may not be an easy task.· There could be a safety issue if the 30 km string got wrapped around something or someone as it is being reeled in.
Dave
Post Edited (Dave Hein) : 3/23/2009 7:43:47 PM GMT
back and forth like a jerk everytime is started to fly, it would just nose dive into the ground. I ended up buying her a mini bike.
·
I hate knocking anybody's idea but using a kite (something that needs air to fly) to get above the air, poses something of a dilemma.
Ah, memories --
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· -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
It is probably best not to reel in low level string, for hazardous reasons, unless the string is still relatively high and airborne. Then, once the string releases payload at the jet stream, it can be rapidly spooled in with a motorized unit, pulling in the string at a rate that would exceed its downward fall velocity, to maintain its aligment.
With such light string, I imagine the rate would be much slower than the 32 feet per second squared acceleration of a falling object. String would reach a buoyancy with air, terminal velocity, quite readily causing it to meander in free fall. String should be expendable if it cannot be reeled in.
There are single kite records at 3,082 m (10112 feet). This altitude was achieved using a 15 m2 parafoil kite with a 386 kg-test Kevlar tether. Still, multiple kites may be required to reach the jet stream near 5 1/2 miles low end of altitude. That's going to be our energy key to going higher. The jet stream has a force that can exceed 250 mph. That's a lot of energy that can be harnessed.
As can be seen below, the jet stream is our runway to launching vehicles to gain new heights towards near space. Consider it a runway at least 1,000 miles long just waiting for our new NNSP project.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 3/25/2009 9:45:19 AM GMT
What was the first manmade object to exit our planets atmosphere. It was a manhole cover and it is currently passing Pluto. The story goes that during the 1st US underground explosion of an atomic bomb, they placed a huge 4 inch thick thick steel plate over the shaft. Subsequent calculations indicated that this “manhole cover” blasted off at 2 times the earth’s exit velocity. The high-speed film of the blast show it disappearing.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread4434/pg
Mind you, if your government object to rockets, they probably take a dim view of home built atomic bombs.
“Manhole cover to NASA, Manhole cover to NASA, we’re passing Pluto on our port bow”
John Bond
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She is 29 and she just left after visiting me today but somehow it cost me 400 dollars??? LOL
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I have a great quantity of aircraft-grade spruce capstrip left over from an airplane-building project, 1/4 inch square -- great for building kite frames.· Hmmm, lessee, there might be some gently windy days soon in north Florida -- masking paper would be good -- wonder what kind of string I'd need for, say, a ten-foot-tall kite.
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· -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
humanoido
·
However, the wind is not constant at all levels, and the drag will vary -- not in any simple way -- depending upon the angle between the string and the relative wind.· Therefore the·actual curve won't be a catenary nor a hyperbola.
One way to compensate for the increased weight of the string when it is longer (kite is higher) is (as someone already suggested) to put additional kites on the string, perhaps one every couple hundred feet of string.· Each kite supprts the weight of its own string.· This actually works for the weight, but each kite adds tension to the string below it, so eventually you've got to have heavier string on the lower sections.· That is, the top section of the string has one kite pulling on it, the next-lower section of string has two, and if there are, say, ten kites in all, the bottom section has ten kites pulling on it.
Mother Nature is a witch.· Something like that.
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· -- Carl, nn5i@arrl.net
humanoido
humanoido
humanoido
They're heavy, bulky and not very hackable.
(Start hacking and you risk letting light in. Not good with an analog camera... )
Instead get one of those 'world's smallest' keychain size digitals.
As these are all-digital, they should be easy to connect to a Stamp, and you may also let the Stamp and camera use the same battery.
Only problem is that they usually have a max resolution of 640x480 .
Alternatively, search for 'Flycam One'
Miniature digital designed to be mounted in RC models.
It can be set to snap pictures at intervals...
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Don't visit my new website...
The Aiptek Mini Pencam has a much better lens.· The still image resolution is 1248x960.· The Pencam does require bright sunlight for good picture quality, and it does produce motion distortion if the camera is moving.· However, a Picavet suspension should handle to motion problem.· At a price of $10 it's hard to beat the Pencam.
The shutter controller can be quite small.· It could be built with an SX, resonator, and a 10K resistor.· The Pencam can provide a stable 3.3 volt power source.
Dave
humanoido
humanoido
Two kites ended up in trees. Owners worked hours twisting the string every direction to get these back and were successful. Suddenly, the wind shifted direction by about 80 degrees. That was something I had not observed before, and all the kites shifted position across the sky. I don't know how that affected the kite owners, as some had heavy street traffic on 3 sides.
After 2 hours, the wind suddenly stopped! All the kites fell from the sky! Again, it was something I have never seen before. I had often wondered why I saw so many kites lodged up in power lines and trees along the street, thinking that was an odd place to fly a kite. Now I know the kites probably fell from lack of air at great distances from the owner. Bu the way, is there a special name for the person flying his/her kite?
This youtube video shows my idea already in action for attaching a series of tiny kites to create self supporting string. Has anyone found resources describing this approach as a method to extend string distance for kite flying?
www.expertvillage.com/video/82552_make-kites-variations.htm
Speaking of string, early on, two kites broke away from their string and were free falling. One lower kite came down rather quickly. Apparently there was a lack of wind at lower altitude. The other kite was much higher and spent most of its time drifting on updraft currents.
I had an opportunity to observe the string that broke as it overlaid the tree in front of me at the park. It was a standard appearing white string, and probably a common low test pull. It was not the strong bamboo based string. I believe the strong bamboo string will be a key feature in flying kites at high altitude because it is water vapor resistant and does not saturate. Plus, there is no need to wax it to waterproof it, saving an extra step in string usage.
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 4/2/2009 7:49:04 AM GMT
"It's going to be tough hanging on when it enters the jet stream. [noparse]:)[/noparse]"
I thought that was very good humor until I began thinking about
a small lightweight gondola. Then, one thing led to another, there
was the oxygen tank, space suit, EVA unit, and ...
humanoido